_Gezo_ wrote:

There's also the HD weighing problem, which I'd like to see how much changes they would give.

yes pls ;w;

now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc

lolnopes

kinda agree with the accuracy thing; Remote Control is by far my most accurate HDT (99.52%) and yet it's still #9. Night of Fire is easier than that, if you ask me; it's 98.88% HDT, yet it's weighted a lot more.

Or is it because SD got its own weight too? Also, I think Distorted Lovesong and Because Maybe! should swap places, as the latter is the same speed, but 10 minutes lengthier. Acc difference is .03% (99.27 and 99.24, respectively), but still. :b



also lol Carnival at #1

Didou wrote:

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc

lolnopes

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !

You wouldn't get the same pp. You'd get less.
The only reason the above 2 scores are that close is, because 1500 combo vs 1600 combo is not such a big difference and, because a difference between 97.8% vs 98.6% is not close at all.

Tom94 wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !

You wouldn't get the same pp. You'd get less.
The only reason the above 2 scores are that close is, because 1500 combo vs 1600 combo is not such a big difference and, because a difference between 97.8% vs 98.6% is not close at all.

Agree with Tom, and tbh the acc weighing is about just right. (maybe slightly low)
Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !

^ this, is frustrating when u do a map with misses and 98.50 acc and then fc the map with 98.00 acc and you lose pp, feels so wrong

abrian159 wrote:

Agree with Tom, and tbh the acc weighing is about just right. (maybe slightly low)
Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...

well I can't say this is wrong, it's better as it doesn't overrate acc, but now it is weighed a bit wrong due to missing barely taken into account (see didou's screen, 7pp difference despite having more acc yet misses)

Acc weighting doesn't depend on OD at all. This is my feeling - see 2nd previous post where I show that my OD4 HRDT gets above tons of OD5/6/7+ HRDT

abrian159 wrote:

Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...

He He He He He.... pay-time *rubs hands*

At first glance, I think I like the new weighting for accuracy a lot more. I'm currently ranked around the mid-high 2,000s, and the change in my "top performance" actually gives me a little bit of hope of improving my rank at a more "reasonable" pace, so to speak.





Ever since the reintroduction of Taiko pp, my Kare Kano Kanon score was ranked rather adamantly #1 in Top Performance, being the best performance I have ever had when specifically considering accuracy:



But all of those A ranks are floating around high 96% accuracies, and most of those songs feature much more complex or faster-paced gameplay (Sa'eed, for example, containing my highest Taiko-diff combo to date, being 1,202). Before, it felt a little bad because all of the emphasis did seem to be on getting top-tier accuracy, which at my skill level isn't so consistent. Feels a lot better to see something more recent at #1 rather than something incidental from 2 months ago.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Acc weighting doesn't depend on OD at all. This is my feeling - see 2nd previous post where I show that my OD4 HRDT gets above tons of OD5/6/7+ HRDT

Yes

I need some help understanding how pp calculation works because I'm really confused right now.
For an example, I'll use two maps from my top performance list and compare them:
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Taiko] vs Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [mekadon's Taiko]
Mods used: HR = HR (no difference)
Star Rating: 3.56 > 3.31 (TTFAF wins)
Accuracy: 99.57% ~ 98.35% (should probably be a win for TTFAF, or be about even at worst; both accuracies are mediocre, but it's OD7 vs OD10)
Misses: 0 < 5 (TTFAF wins)
Combo: 3121 (FC) > 747 (out of 2121) (TTFAF wins)
BPM (in case high SV gives bonuses with HR): 200 > 178 (TTFAF wins)
pp Value: 282 < 296 (Emotional Skyscraper inexplicably wins)

I got the Emotional Skyscraper score in multiplayer almost half a year ago, it's terrible and should not be my #5 performance. It's not a hard map and according to these stats it should give way less pp than TTFAF. Yet somehow it doesn't.
What am I missing?

Luna wrote:

I need some help understanding how pp calculation works because I'm really confused right now.
For an example, I'll use two maps from my top performance list and compare them:
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Taiko] vs Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [mekadon's Taiko]
Mods used: HR = HR (no difference)
Star Rating: 3.56 > 3.31 (TTFAF wins)
Accuracy: 99.57% ~ 98.35% (should probably be a win for TTFAF, or be about even at worst; both accuracies are mediocre, but it's OD7 vs OD10)
Misses: 0 < 5 (TTFAF wins)
Combo: 3121 (FC) > 747 (out of 2121) (TTFAF wins)
BPM (in case high SV gives bonuses with HR): 200 > 178 (TTFAF wins)
pp Value: 282 < 296 (Emotional Skyscraper inexplicably wins)

I got the Emotional Skyscraper score in multiplayer almost half a year ago, it's terrible and should not be my #5 performance. It's not a hard map and according to these stats it should give way less pp than TTFAF. Yet somehow it doesn't.
What am I missing?

Seems like the recent accuracy update got them closer (294 vs 292). The reason really is the OD. Getting 98.35% at OD10 is considered better than 99.57% at OD7 (by about 2 accuracy pp, 125 vs 145 to be exact). That means that the rest of the scores also get a difference of ~20 pp in the other direction, making up for that.

Should misses / combo breaks be penalized even more? It should be noted, that you only had 5 misses, so they didn't pull the pp of emotional skyscraper down by much.

Oh, my top performance list had apparently not updated fully until just now, it was different just a few hours ago (with the stats I posted).
But it still feels weird that a score on a 3.56 diff map gets beaten so easily by a shitty non-FC score on a 3.31 diff map.
And 98.35 OD10 isn't even good, it should definitely not give 20 additional pp over the TTFAF accuracy.

So yes, I think misses should be penalized a bit more, map difficulty should probably be weighted higher (although the algorithm still needs a lot of work) and the accuracy weighting still makes little sense to me.

Tom94 wrote:

Should misses / combo breaks be penalized even more? It should be noted, that you only had 5 misses, so they didn't pull the pp of emotional skyscraper down by much.

This is what I wanted to tell with Didou vs Nashmun case, getting very few misses can still give you an enormous reward (even by missing halfway through the map)

i just lost about 70pp but not rank at all, there is a new change?

I wonder how is your overall accuracy calculated?
It kept changing even thought I didn't rank any maps,
does it only counts your top 100 plays or so in the pp list..?

If it's anything like ppv1 accuracy, it's weighted by your top performances (so your #1 top performance score has the highest impact on your accuracy and so on)

Luna wrote:

If it's anything like ppv1 accuracy, it's weighted by your top performances (so your #1 top performance score has the highest impact on your accuracy and so on)

Yup, that's exactly how it's done. Your accuracy is the weighted average of your scores' accuracies by the respective "Weighting" shown in your Top Ranks profile section.

‎

Losing 2 pp cuz 0.09 of acc? imo fc need to weight more than acc without combo

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

Losing 2 pp cuz 0.09 of acc? imo fc need to weight more than acc without combo

Its a rhythm games. Putting more focus on accuracy makes perfect sense. Combo is just a number.
But I do agree that it is currently a BIT strict still.

Dolphin wrote:

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

Losing 2 pp cuz 0.09 of acc? imo fc need to weight more than acc without combo

Its a rhythm games. Putting more focus on accuracy makes perfect sense. Combo is just a number.
But I do agree that it is currently a BIT strict still.

it shouldn't when the highest combo you got, the highest score you receive ... that's somewhat rewarding your combo with score, shouldn't be the same with pp?

runs

seicHmsc wrote:

Dolphin wrote:

Its a rhythm games. Putting more focus on accuracy makes perfect sense. Combo is just a number.
But I do agree that it is currently a BIT strict still.

it shouldn't when the highest combo you got, the highest score you receive ... that's somewhat rewarding your combo with score, shouldn't be the same with pp?

runs

It's not quite an absolute truth, but I do mostly agree with this. Accuracy isn't worth more than combo until at least 97%, especially in this mode where, while our combo multiplier isn't multiplicative unto infinity, our timing is pretty strict and hitting 100x on some patterns can actually be the same as missing. Accuracy being extremely weighted like that kind of caters it to the top players who are doing SSes, while being non-intuitive to the middle players who can get way better accuracy but a lower score, and as a result doesn't count for pp. Losing pp because you did better is very disheartening.

Would there be any way to make the score that is counted for pp be the one the system considers you performed best on, rather than just being the one you make the best score on? I don't think this would affect the top of the ladder much, but would help tons around the middle where it's easily possible to invalidate a good performance.

i feel like missing is the worst you can do in a rhythm game, worse than pressing later or earlier

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

i feel like missing is the worst you can do in a rhythm game, worse than pressing later or earlier

Yes, imo it's better to press a note late rather than miss it completely, in terms of performance (like for example, playing a piano), the latter mistake is really obvious.

I agree with you when it's just about a 1:1 ratio (1 miss is worse than one mistimed note), but that's how the system already works.
The example you gave is (if I calculated correctly) 1 miss vs. 3 mistimed notes on OD5 (so they are off by quite a lot). I'd still agree that the miss is worse in this case, but it's getting a lot closer.
If you read through the last couple of posts again, you will see that we already asked for an increased miss punishment; so once Tom has time to actually implement that, your example scores should probably look better (FC giving more than the other score). Just don't expect to beat scores with way superior accuracy just because you didn't miss.

no, 1 miss worth 0% and 1 mistimed worth 50% of acc, so 1 miss is equal 2 mistimed notes. if u hit 4 x300 and 1 miss is the same if u hit 3x300 and 2x100.

I dunno, missing is completely losing the melody and the rhythm, i think missed need to be more punished than x100 but i dont know if its is possible

So I just fc'd this with 0,57% worse accuracy than this but the second is my third top performance, while the first is weighted for 1%.

Is the length factor weighted that much? The first had 2 deathstreams while the second had a few shorter ones but even only at the end. Or was it the 0,57% accuracy?

Senpuu is rated almost 0.3 stars easier than the Miku song, that's a pretty big margin.
Although I'd agree that Senpuu is actually harder (but not by much).

Is HD still not weighted? Having two scores within 4 100's of each other on ExaVid, one with HR and one with HD, have a 30pp difference is a little... much in my opinion.

HD


vs

HR


vs

1x100 no-mod

^ that

Seems like a lot of bullshit in my humble opinion. HD doesnt seem to be weighted at all, or VEEERY little if so.

Dolphin wrote:

^ that

Seems like a lot of bullshit in my humble opinion. HD doesnt seem to be weighted at all, or VEEERY little if so.

HD is currently not factored in according to Tom o.o
would be nice if it could sooner

I would really like to say some things concerning this system, so that's what I am going to do. Be aware though, I have not read through all the 26 pages, so a lot of the stuff I am going to say might have already been said.

I've been playing Taiko for more than 3 years now and I believe I can say that I have gotten pretty good at it. I took a break lasting one and a half years, but my skill hasn't really decreased a lot. So I have been playing quite some maps recently and tried to play some old maps as well on which I haven't had an S yet. Does the pp score not affect maps that have been played before? E.g. I had a map with an A rank, let's say 5 miss and a bad accuracy and I got to play it again and get an S rank with HR on. Shouldn't that give me at least one point?

I played through at least 20 or 30 maps which got ranked during my abscence and I believe that I didn't get more than 5 points. Instead of reaching higher ranks in the Taiko ranking in general, I see my rank dropping as if I wouldn't play at all. Why? I don't get it, I really don't. How does getting several good ranks a day not give me any points?

And there is something else that is really confusing me: I see people around~#330 that just shouldn't be there. I am not trying to sound mean or arrogant, not at all, but when I compare myself having FC'ed Shinsekai, Chipscape, Freedom Dive, Mei and many more hard maps, then why are there people overtaking me who have trouble passing these songs?

I understand that a system showing the best people according to their skills is what you are trying to achieve and I honestly really like that idea, but it just doesn't seem to work all too well for Taiko. Is that still going to be changed or will I have to be satisfied with that?

Sorry for the long post. I hope no one feels offended, that was just my personal opinion.
Greetings.

the system isn't final, and the reason you're not getting ranks/pp for improving scores is that you have to make your score better than your best scores, or it won't be counted. this is to prevent pp farming

@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.

capeseverywhere wrote:

@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.

So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a player is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?

Necro Neko wrote:

capeseverywhere wrote:

@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.

So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a playerl is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?

After all its a rhythm game, accuracy should be one of the main aspect.
Although youre right with how some people have high rank while they dont have the skill for it.

Necro Neko wrote:

capeseverywhere wrote:

@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.

So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a playerl is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?

I don't think it's so much that it's mostly being affected by one aspect, but that ultimately accuracy is the most effective measure of a player's skill within a specific instance of a beatmap -- that is to say, if you're good at a given aspect of Taiko, then it follows you would have good accuracy in that aspect. This is especially relevant considering the Taiko has the least multiplicative combo-score relationship, allowing for the ability to actually realistically place higher scores without necessarily placing higher maximum combos.

I have also found that the difference between ranking B and ranking A is enormous, even if minimal improvement between the two scores occur. My third highest pp comes from Sakura Fumi - Realize at an A rank, which I took the accuracy from 92% to 96% and from B to A and it went from being weighted 0% to being weighted 90%. The difference between A and S appears to be worth a lot, as well, and presumably S and SS, as well.