Just that, I'm kinda tired of having to map my X key to second C so I can stream faster and pass Mad Machine everytime I want. Same for taiko, those reverse-sliders are equal to impossible streams on taiko, a third clicking key on our keyboards, natively from osu!. Not everyone is a TTTL or a Tom94 to tap or mouseclick.
forum
Streaming with more keys. [invalid]
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Would be useful to have the ability to use more keys, should allow at least 3 or 4, I know so many people who use 3/4 keys for this same reason.
How would you place your fingers to stream with more than 2 keys on a keyboard?
pinky on S
ring on E
middle on R
index on G
thumb on Spacebar?
Chipscape DT?
pinky on S
ring on E
middle on R
index on G
thumb on Spacebar?
Chipscape DT?
z,x and mouse click /o/
Topic Starter
deadbeat wrote:
z,x and mouse click /o/
Thought it was clear enough. Also with this cursor moves everywhere; what do you gain streaming notes you can't even reach.Phenomz- wrote:
Just that, I'm kinda tired of having to map my X key to second C so I can stream faster and pass Mad Machine everytime I want. Same for taiko, those reverse-sliders are equal to impossible streams on taiko, a third clicking key on our keyboards, natively from osu!. Not everyone is a TTTL or a Tom94 to tap or mouseclick.
personally i think using a 3rd keyboard key would streaming harder. so i'm not really sure about this one
lower your DPI and then tapping the mouse won't make you miss the circles.Phenomz- wrote:
Thought it was clear enough. Also with this cursor moves everywhere; what do you gain streaming notes you can't even reach.
This may have been requested before? Seems familiar, anyway.
The problem with adding this is that it opens a door to maps designed with it in mind. Is that really something anyone wants?
If your streaming isn't very fast, it's probably because you lack practice and/or technique. I sure know that's the case for me.
The problem with adding this is that it opens a door to maps designed with it in mind. Is that really something anyone wants?
If your streaming isn't very fast, it's probably because you lack practice and/or technique. I sure know that's the case for me.
People can stream fine using two buttons. Anymore are not needed.
plus, don't mess with the taiko controls. They are very authentic to the portable/controller versions with Taiko no Tatsujin.
plus, don't mess with the taiko controls. They are very authentic to the portable/controller versions with Taiko no Tatsujin.
This is completely stupid imo, not to be harsh or anything (ok, I probably failed trying to make this not harsh), but osu! was made for just 2 keys, and adding an extra (or more) keys really completely changes the game (and also makes a shit load of things a shit ton easier). If you reasoning to add a third key is because you aren't good enough, I honestly think you shouldn't even bother asking. It's like asking, "God, can I have a third arm so I can play piano better?" Well, if you get rid of the logical outcome of probably looking disgusting and ugly with a third arm, having a third really does help a lot for piano. It doesn't make sense, and also you will never get a third arm since you were made to only have two arms, as osu! was made for only two keys.
Maybe not the best analogy, but anyways, if you think you seriously reached your limitations and cannot even come close to streaming as well as TTTL or something, go practice other things like accuracy and jumps, and be super pro at those. But you'd be surprised at what one can accomplish if you just sit down and try. I could barely stream 200BPM before, but I have gotten much further now. I still suck at streaming, but I don't think I have reached my limitations yet and I just practice to reach up there instead of trying to find an easier way out.
Maybe not the best analogy, but anyways, if you think you seriously reached your limitations and cannot even come close to streaming as well as TTTL or something, go practice other things like accuracy and jumps, and be super pro at those. But you'd be surprised at what one can accomplish if you just sit down and try. I could barely stream 200BPM before, but I have gotten much further now. I still suck at streaming, but I don't think I have reached my limitations yet and I just practice to reach up there instead of trying to find an easier way out.
lol, well I denied the previous one, mostly because I never figured out how more keys made things easier.
p/1112441/hilit=more+keys
Since there seems to be more discussion this times, I'll leave it be for a while.
p/1112441/hilit=more+keys
Since there seems to be more discussion this times, I'll leave it be for a while.
Tom69_old
Using more than 2 keys really yields an advantage, I can say that as a kinda experienced piano player. However as winber said it isn't really fair to allow people to use more keys than 2 now, after everyone else had to live with just 2.
Just a quick example: Bind the keyboard x/z to different keys than your mouse buttons. Even without having practice in using your ring and pinky finger one could instantly stream 300bpm+. And if one actually HAS the ability to properly use pinky and ring finger... well, fast streams become kinda trivial then.
(Even though using 3 keys would be rather strange for any any streams besides 1/3. 4 Keys should be the way to go for 1/4 streams.)
I didn't just come here and instantly tap/xed high BPM with 98%. Neither did TTTL. It always comes down to practice. :p
Just a quick example: Bind the keyboard x/z to different keys than your mouse buttons. Even without having practice in using your ring and pinky finger one could instantly stream 300bpm+. And if one actually HAS the ability to properly use pinky and ring finger... well, fast streams become kinda trivial then.
(Even though using 3 keys would be rather strange for any any streams besides 1/3. 4 Keys should be the way to go for 1/4 streams.)
Neither is everyone Remilia Scarlet and can stream 270 just with the KB.Phenomz- wrote:
Not everyone is a TTTL or a Tom94 to tap or mouseclick.
I didn't just come here and instantly tap/xed high BPM with 98%. Neither did TTTL. It always comes down to practice. :p
Keep in mind it is pretty simple to get around this using a software or hardware solution. From my perspective, if adding more keys yields and advantage then it is probably best to make the option available to all people, instead of those going out of their way to manipulate it.
adding a 3rd key would give an advantage... you can just hold it down all the time and get an advantage with sliderstreams, never letting go too early!
To hear that people have been doing this anyway makes me pretty upset. Makes all the effort put into getting faster seem pointless. All the current "fast" maps would be somewhat of a joke even with a single additional key.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, not saying that people necessarily do. Even if it was done, it would be very limited due to the way keydown/ups are handled.
yeah, would be another advantage for mechanical keyboards.peppy wrote:
I'm just playing devil's advocate, not saying that people necessarily do. Even if it was done, it would be very limited due to the way keydown/ups are handled.
also, I don't think that this is really necessary. most songs in osu don't even exceed the 200 BPM border, and if all these show offs don't lie, 200 BPM is no problem at all for any decent osu!-player.
Indeed I used to use a Belkin N52te before I started using my new mechanical keyboard in osu! and I did map my mouse keys next to the z and x in its osu! config, However I never really used it. There are also mouses with a triple click button on them so in a sense that would also be the same advantage. I also remember osu! supporting more keys a long long time ago.
4 keys per hand seems the max. Anyway, nobody uses 2 keyboard, so 4 keys should suffice
Using 3 keys would make 1/3 easier, but tbh I'm against the whole idea because then 1/8 would be possible and people would abuse it in maps and blahblahblahblah I just dont like it
Topic Starter
no if BATs and MATs are smart enough.... it's their job, right?Makar wrote:
Using 3 keys would make 1/3 easier, but tbh I'm against the whole idea because then 1/8 would be possible and people would abuse it in maps and blahblahblahblah I just dont like it
The point is that it might be allowed since its possible - forcing players to learn with 4 keys.Phenomz- wrote:
no if BATs and MATs are smart enough.... it's their job, right?Makar wrote:
Using 3 keys would make 1/3 easier, but tbh I'm against the whole idea because then 1/8 would be possible and people would abuse it in maps and blahblahblahblah I just dont like it
Topic Starter
If that's the case then I won't this feature to be enabled.Makar wrote:
The point is that it might be allowed since its possible - forcing players to learn with 4 keys.
Tom69_old
For 4 buttons a manipulated solution might work if one releases the buttons very fast (binding z, x, c, v to right, left, right, left). However most likely one still runs into the problem of overlapping right/left clicks. Not even speaking of an odd amount of bound keys.peppy wrote:
Keep in mind it is pretty simple to get around this using a software or hardware solution. From my perspective, if adding more keys yields and advantage then it is probably best to make the option available to all people, instead of those going out of their way to manipulate it.
That's why adding the ability of more than 2 simultanous keypresses actually yields in a big advantage over everything which is possible atm.
(Unless one actually goes as far as creating scripts that instantly release a button on press. One would need different button bindings for sliders and spinners then though.)
Let's implement this when a mouse with four buttons is the meta
It's almost like playing a mini-piano. 
osu!mania anyone?
osu!mania anyone?
It is possible to create a script that maps any amount of keys to X or Z and make the bindings act like they were a Z and X without much problems (2 ms delay per keypress) (The difference is just like when you start playing with 2 keys instead of just single-tapping X or Z). I just made one to test this and passed (with 53.95% acc) this unapproved 220BMP map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/137121&m=0 using 4 streaming keys (I can barely pass 150 BMP stream maps normally, using only 2 keys I could barely last 2 seconds streaming in the 220 BMP map). Of course I won't use the script in ranked/approved maps.Tom69 wrote:
For 4 buttons a manipulated solution might work if one releases the buttons very fast (binding z, x, c, v to right, left, right, left). However most likely one still runs into the problem of overlapping right/left clicks. Not even speaking of an odd amount of bound keys.peppy wrote:
Keep in mind it is pretty simple to get around this using a software or hardware solution. From my perspective, if adding more keys yields and advantage then it is probably best to make the option available to all people, instead of those going out of their way to manipulate it.
That's why adding the ability of more than 2 simultaneous keypresses actually yields in a big advantage over everything which is possible atm.
(Unless one actually goes as far as creating scripts that instantly release a button on press. One would need different button bindings for sliders and spinners then though.)
Allowing more map keys would cause an unfair advantage for people who play with decent keyboards. There are lots of players that use a 2-key or 3-key rollover keyboard (meaning the game might detect their keypresses wrong if they use 3 or 4 keys for streaming), and it would put players that don't use a keyboard (or similar alternatives) in a even greater disadvantage.
Tom69_old
You didn't quite get what I meant.Full Tablet wrote:
It is possible to create a script that maps any amount of keys to X or Z and make the bindings act like they were a Z and X without much problems (2 ms delay per keypress). I just made one to test this and passed (with 53.95% acc) this unapproved 220BMP map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/137121&m=0 using 4 streaming keys (I can barely pass 150 BMP stream maps normally, using only 2 keys I could barely last 2 seconds streaming in the 220 BMP map). Of course I won't use the script in ranked/approved maps.
Allowing more map keys would cause an unfair advantage for people who play with decent keyboards. There are lots of players that use a 2-key or 3-key rollover keyboard (meaning the game might detect their keypresses wrong if they use 3 or 4 keys for streaming), and it would put players that don't use a keyboard (or similar alternatives) in a even greater disadvantage.
Of course you can map those buttons easily.
You can even map it so that Z and X are pressed alternating automaticly.
However you still could only hold a maximum of one instance of Z or X pressed. Allowing for more than 2 simultanous keypresses is the part which gives an advantage to the current system. The method you described is merely a smart usage of game mechanics (and afaik is even allowed on ranked/approved maps, I am not sure on this though).
Then lets ban tablet because not everyone has a 70$ tablet sitting at their desk and the players that do can play better.Full Tablet wrote:
Allowing more map keys would cause an unfair advantage for people who play with decent keyboards. There are lots of players that use a 2-key or 3-key rollover keyboard (meaning the game might detect their keypresses wrong if they use 3 or 4 keys for streaming), and it would put players that don't use a keyboard (or similar alternatives) in a even greater disadvantage.
What I mean is that it is possible to script the mapped keys so they do something equivalent as adding new keys like they were natively supported. I could even test with 6 simultaneous keys all of them mapped to X, working like they were 6 independent keys when playing the game. (Could hold any one of them during sliders while tapping other keys, streaming with any of the mapped keys even if some of them were held down, etc...)Tom69 wrote:
You didn't quite get what I meant.Full Tablet wrote:
It is possible to create a script that maps any amount of keys to X or Z and make the bindings act like they were a Z and X without much problems (2 ms delay per keypress). I just made one to test this and passed (with 53.95% acc) this unapproved 220BMP map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/137121&m=0 using 4 streaming keys (I can barely pass 150 BMP stream maps normally, using only 2 keys I could barely last 2 seconds streaming in the 220 BMP map). Of course I won't use the script in ranked/approved maps.
Allowing more map keys would cause an unfair advantage for people who play with decent keyboards. There are lots of players that use a 2-key or 3-key rollover keyboard (meaning the game might detect their keypresses wrong if they use 3 or 4 keys for streaming), and it would put players that don't use a keyboard (or similar alternatives) in a even greater disadvantage.
Of course you can map those buttons easily.
You can even map it so that Z and X are pressed alternating automaticly.
However you still could only hold a maximum of one instance of Z or X pressed. Allowing for more than 2 simultanous keypresses is the part which gives an advantage to the current system. The method you described is merely a smart usage of game mechanics (and afaik is even allowed on ranked/approved maps, I am not sure on this though).
Using a tablet v/s a mouse is an alternative (it is debatable what is the best of the two). Also the best mice cost about the same as a Bamboo (or even more).MMzz wrote:
Then lets ban tablet because not everyone has a 70$ tablet sitting at their desk and the players that do can play better.Full Tablet wrote:
Allowing more map keys would cause an unfair advantage for people who play with decent keyboards. There are lots of players that use a 2-key or 3-key rollover keyboard (meaning the game might detect their keypresses wrong if they use 3 or 4 keys for streaming), and it would put players that don't use a keyboard (or similar alternatives) in a even greater disadvantage.
Having the ability to use more keys is an upgrade that requires getting something more expensive in order to play well (and would be more disadvantageous for people who like using laptop keyboards because they are almost never 4-key or more) . Having more keys is most certainly an advantage in this game (for example I could get to Freedom Dive in the Deathstream compilation using 4 keys, I normally last at most just after Native Faith). The video posted in this thread doesn't show much because the third key was mapped in a restrictive manner and the player seem to have much practice with only 2 keys (it would require practice to master using more fingers).
Maybe they could allow more keys, BUT have them act like they were a basic restrictive mapping (but that would add confusion and would be pretty much useless).
As for the fact that is possible to cheat with scripts that map keys in a certain way, it would be possible to add some suspicious keypress behavior detectors for this (I can't know if they exist or not right now).
And who will permit such blantantly overmap?Makar wrote:
Using 3 keys would make 1/3 easier, but tbh I'm against the whole idea because then 1/8 would be possible and people would abuse it in maps and blahblahblahblah I just dont like it
no one.
a number of modder needed to rank a map, plus some MATs/BATs. With all those people, you think nosense 1/8 will be permitted in a Rhythm Game?
The max overmap I can undestand is medium-fast 5/7 circle stream, 3/5 fast circle stream in Hard/Insane
I'm not going to read all the topic , but just don't.
Streaming with more then 2 keys will completely change osu! gameplay
Streaming with more then 2 keys will completely change osu! gameplay
The number of modders needed to rank a map, plus some MAT/BAT mods is "high" - with all those people, do you think a bad/unrankable map will ever get ranked?HakuNoKaemi wrote:
And who will permit such blantantly overmap?Makar wrote:
Using 3 keys would make 1/3 easier, but tbh I'm against the whole idea because then 1/8 would be possible and people would abuse it in maps and blahblahblahblah I just dont like it
no one.
a number of modder needed to rank a map, plus some MATs/BATs. With all those people, you think nosense 1/8 will be permitted in a Rhythm Game?
The max overmap I can undestand is medium-fast 5/7 circle stream, 3/5 fast circle stream in Hard/Insane
Incase you don't see, I am being sarcastic. So to answer your question: Yes, I think it can happen
It won't.
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
aka
This argument is invalid. The only valid argument I saw it's based around this game gameplay, as it'll be revolutioned
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
aka
This argument is invalid. The only valid argument I saw it's based around this game gameplay, as it'll be revolutioned
Ahahahaha :'DHakuNoKaemi wrote:
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
If its playable, they will probably allow 1/8 even if its not much.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
It won't.
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
aka
This argument is invalid. The only valid argument I saw it's based around this game gameplay, as it'll be revolutioned
If 1/8 is playable (no matter how much there is) it will force users into using more than the standard two keys.
If something makes the game easier, maps will adjust to that - it's natural
link them.Luna wrote:
Ahahahaha :'DHakuNoKaemi wrote:
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
I didn't remember to add "Ranked" but I guess you did understand anyway
It's still a rhythm game. It counter it's definition.Makar wrote:
If its playable, they will probably allow 1/8 even if its not much.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
It won't.
There aren't blatantly overmapped maps as now.
aka
This argument is invalid. The only valid argument I saw it's based around this game gameplay, as it'll be revolutioned
If 1/8 is playable (no matter how much there is) it will force users into using more than the standard two keys.
If something makes the game easier, maps will adjust to that - it's natural
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/47757 This map, for example, uses some 1/6 streams in some parts (00:53:430) that are not playable by many people.
There will probably be more things similar.
If an addition is going to -require- people to adjust to using something new for input, I'd rather not have this happen.
There will probably be more things similar.
If an addition is going to -require- people to adjust to using something new for input, I'd rather not have this happen.
I support this idea, but my arguments aren't quite the same as what some of the other comments have said.
As according to what peppy said on page 1, this can be made available if it would be of some on improving the game plays.
So the question now is does it really benefit the players to have this extra 3rd/4th key, and worth the trouble for peppy to implement this new feature?
Since I'm mainly a tablet player, I don't get the extra 2 mouse keys to use while playing, neither do I tap for a third click, cuz that's just crazy hard.
So having this extra 3rd/4th key would be helpful.
Some people say that having the extra keys doesn't really speed up the streams.
Maybe true, maybe not. But I mainly want to have the extra key to lighten the burden on my two fingers when playing long, fast steams.
Some people also said this would cause some unfair disadvantage for mouse only users.
Well, tablet users don't even get the extra two mouse clicks that mouse users do. And it's even more unfair for touch screen users; they gotta play the traditional Osu Tatakae Ouendan/EBA format, which is one tap at a time. The option to use the keyboard is available for everyone, you just choose not to use them.
Lastly, players can always still play using the format they have right now. The option is just available for those who prefer the extra keys.
As according to what peppy said on page 1, this can be made available if it would be of some on improving the game plays.
So the question now is does it really benefit the players to have this extra 3rd/4th key, and worth the trouble for peppy to implement this new feature?
Since I'm mainly a tablet player, I don't get the extra 2 mouse keys to use while playing, neither do I tap for a third click, cuz that's just crazy hard.
So having this extra 3rd/4th key would be helpful.
Some people say that having the extra keys doesn't really speed up the streams.
Maybe true, maybe not. But I mainly want to have the extra key to lighten the burden on my two fingers when playing long, fast steams.
Some people also said this would cause some unfair disadvantage for mouse only users.
Well, tablet users don't even get the extra two mouse clicks that mouse users do. And it's even more unfair for touch screen users; they gotta play the traditional Osu Tatakae Ouendan/EBA format, which is one tap at a time. The option to use the keyboard is available for everyone, you just choose not to use them.
Lastly, players can always still play using the format they have right now. The option is just available for those who prefer the extra keys.
bbyeNilsso wrote:
Go sucide then.Macacito wrote:
y then mouse only players would suicide themselves
It's not an overmap.Makar wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/47757 This map, for example, uses some 1/6 streams in some parts (00:53:430) that are not playable by many people.
There will probably be more things similar.
If an addition is going to -require- people to adjust to using something new for input, I'd rather not have this happen.
And it's just you should choose.
what about all the scores the old players did with just 2 keys ? I don't really know if streaming with 3 keys it's possible but if it this , all the old score done with 2 keys will be replaced with the ones with 3 keys ... that's just unfair for who putted efforts to clear a map with 2 keys.Keredna wrote:
I support this idea, but my arguments aren't quite the same as what some of the other comments have said.
As according to what peppy said on page 1, this can be made available if it would be of some on improving the game plays.
So the question now is does it really benefit the players to have this extra 3rd/4th key, and worth the trouble for peppy to implement this new feature?
Since I'm mainly a tablet player, I don't get the extra 2 mouse keys to use while playing, neither do I tap for a third click, cuz that's just crazy hard.
So having this extra 3rd/4th key would be helpful.
Some people say that having the extra keys doesn't really speed up the streams.
Maybe true, maybe not. But I mainly want to have the extra key to lighten the burden on my two fingers when playing long, fast steams.
Some people also said this would cause some unfair disadvantage for mouse only users.
Well, tablet users don't even get the extra two mouse clicks that mouse users do. And it's even more unfair for touch screen users; they gotta play the traditional Osu Tatakae Ouendan/EBA format, which is one tap at a time. The option to use the keyboard is available for everyone, you just choose not to use them.
Lastly, players can always still play using the format they have right now. The option is just available for those who prefer the extra keys.
Sorry for broken english .
this is actually a good argumentLiutprando wrote:
what about all the scores the old players did with just 2 keys ? I don't really know if streaming with 3 keys it's possible but if it this , all the old score done with 2 keys will be replaced with the ones with 3 keys ... that's just unfair for who putted efforts to clear a map with 2 keys.
Sorry for broken english .
I really don't like this idea, they implemented 2k for some players they don't use mouse, and that is the way to be.
Really don't like sry.
Really don't like sry.
For starters, we don't know how this new feature would affect the game plays unless we actually try it.Liutprando wrote:
what about all the scores the old players did with just 2 keys ? I don't really know if streaming with 3 keys it's possible but if it this , all the old score done with 2 keys will be replaced with the ones with 3 keys ... that's just unfair for who putted efforts to clear a map with 2 keys.
Sorry for broken english .
Who knows, it might actually be so much of a hassle to have that extra 3rd/4th key to play with.
Even if it does influence the current game play format, and many people started to slash off a lot of the current top ranks, well so what?
*No offense here* but from what I've known, there are actually a great many people who are tired of seeing Cookiezi's and WhiteWolf's name on the top rank all the time.
Higher ranks are meant to be achieved by the better players anyway. If you are not satisfied with losing your first rank, then just work harder to get them back again. You are also given the extra keys to play better this time, so it's all fair game. And again, to use it or not is up to you.
Though I personally don't think the rankings would change that much even with the extra set of keys. Half of the maps out there don't even need the extra keys to get good rankings, and I doubt that many people can actually master all 3/4 keys to use them fluently.
How useful it would be depends on how it will be implemented. If the keys are added in a way similar of just mapping one of the Z or X keys, then it would be almost useless (and confusing to understand for many players). If they are added in a way so the extra keys interact with each other the same way the Z and X keys interact there is a HUGE advantage in fast maps (I have already tested 4 keys, and I nearly passed the Deathstream Compilation -died in Freedom Dive's Jump Streams - on the second try of playing like that, when I normally need dozens of tries to pass the third song in the compilation).Keredna wrote:
For starters, we don't know how this new feature would affect the game plays unless we actually try it.Liutprando wrote:
what about all the scores the old players did with just 2 keys ? I don't really know if streaming with 3 keys it's possible but if it this , all the old score done with 2 keys will be replaced with the ones with 3 keys ... that's just unfair for who putted efforts to clear a map with 2 keys.
Sorry for broken english .
Who knows, it might actually be so much of a hassle to have that extra 3rd/4th key to play with.
Even if it does influence the current game play format, and many people started to slash off a lot of the current top ranks, well so what?
*No offense here* but from what I've known, there are actually a great many people who are tired of seeing Cookiezi's and WhiteWolf's name on the top rank all the time.
Higher ranks are meant to be achieved by the better players anyway. If you are not satisfied with losing your first rank, then just work harder to get them back again. You are also given the extra keys to play better this time, so it's all fair game. And again, to use it or not is up to you.
Though I personally don't think the rankings would change that much even with the extra set of keys. Half of the maps out there don't even need the extra keys to get good rankings, and I doubt that many people can actually master all 3/4 keys to use them fluently.
I think it would be a matter of days or weeks to beat most of the current records in very fast maps if the feature is implemented (considering the good players would eventually master them).
If nobody knows, it shouldn't be too hard to use software to remap the c key to z again, emulating this request.
EDIT: Full Ninja, you tablet.
EDIT: Full Ninja, you tablet.