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proposal - 25s length

posted
Total Posts
37
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori
basically thers a bunch of anime songs that r 28 seconds or something (harumachi/oneroom songs, recently ranked star vs forces of evil thing, etc) and they have to be extended in awkward ways usually, either by slowing down the song (which lowers the quality and sounds weird), adding in extra sounds (or storyboarding them in) or just stretching out ending chords. imo all of this could B avoided if the rule was changed to make 25s the limit or something so that weird extensions wouldn't be needed in these cases.

yehaj
celerih
617 posts
Joined July 2014
celerih
I'd rather have that apply only to songs which do not have a longer ver available to avoid even shorter shitty cut vers. But I agree
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
silly haruki logged into the wrong account again
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori

celerih wrote:

I'd rather have that apply only to songs which do not have a longer ver available to avoid even shorter shitty cut vers. But I agree

well that depends cuz stuff like harumachi tv size is 28s, but theres a full ver. so i think being able to rank just the tv size without cutting from the full would be better.
something like "do not cut songs to below 30s" would be fine to avoid this.

UndeadCapulet wrote:

silly haruki logged into the wrong account again

i have like 10 mp3 extended 30s maps ranked he aint got shit on me
Last edited by Nao Tomori , edited 1 time in total.
Usaha
Beatmap Nominator
511 posts
Joined May 2015
Usaha
agree with nao
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
ok for a real response

unless we set the minimum drain time to 0 seconds (which we aren't gonna do for obvious reasons) there will always be songs too short for rank that need to be extended. 30sec is already really short, and pretty much set as "the barest of bare minimums". if you dont want to extend your mp3 to reach the minimum time, then map a song with like, an actual length.

the sb hs extension shouldn't have happened and i'll be keeping a closer eye on similar shit like that in the future ^^'
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori
what i am trying to say is that 25s is a better threshold for barest of bare minimums because many official releases of anime tv size songs are shorter than 30s. pretending they aren't actual songs because of some arbitrary number in your head that qualifies them as actual songs not being met doesn't make sense. if an official release of a song is 28 seconds long then that is how long the actual song is lol.
defiance
503 posts
Joined July 2015
defiance
map an actual song, 30 seconds is already barely a song and I don't think theres a need to put the minimum even lower than it already is
Turquoise-
137 posts
Joined December 2015
Turquoise-
sure i guess
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
2029: proposal - 20s length
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
no thanks
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Hydria
how about you map full length songs or non-anime songs like there's 294067206 songs out there that are over 30 seconds anything below that is a voice sample with extra tones added

on a side note whilst im here: quality > popularity
Last edited by Hydria , edited 1 time in total.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
As others have said, 30s is already incredibly short and barely passes for a “song”, making that any lower kinda sucks
Krfawy
1,374 posts
Joined March 2012
Krfawy
As long as I understand some songs are extremely close to 30 seconds and the BNs and QATs might turn a blind eye on such cases when these are official TV Sizes or cut versions, mapping something that is as short as 25 seconds is quite a weird idea. I do understand some songs or melodies are very short but with tendencies our community has in a year or two we are going to be mapping 10-second audio samples instead of legitimate songs, so I'd rather we stop on 30 seconds. If somebody wants to map those samples, sure, just loop them so they last long enough. Extending songs for the sake of ranking it is not that dumb if someone wants to map a song and rank it because they like it and the ranking criteria say the drain time must be equal to 30 seconds or more.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
The idea is good, under the premise that there won't be 24 second maps that are gonna be extended to 25 seconds to fit the minimum drain time. I don't think a 5 sec difference matters at this point, considering 30 seconds is still very short. Most extensions sound really bad and it's noticeable that the song was extended so it would be a good idea to avoid this.

UndeadCapulet wrote:

silly haruki logged into the wrong account again
Did I miss something xD
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
Just map the full version of the song lol. 30s is already a very low requirement and should not be further lowered to cater to one or two people’s needs. 30s maps already make for an unsatisfying experience and I see no reason to further reduce the minimum amount of map required to reach rank.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton

celerih wrote:

I'd rather have that apply only to songs which do not have a longer ver available


agree with the idea behind this, but I think it could instead apply to audio which is clearly a complete song despite being under 30 seconds-- after all, the reason for this lower bound of 30 seconds in the first place is just to stop people from ranking ridiculously low-effort cuts of good songs (and some scoring issues, presumably)

I'm not sure exactly how to word it, but I think a better rule would allow anything over 30 seconds, as well as official cuts or clearly-complete songs under 30 seconds (Myxo's map, harumachi clover TV Size, ...)

I don't like how Myxo extended the map, but he was going to have to do it somehow, whether that be adding notes, repeating part of the song, etc. so I think RC should just not require mappers to do any of that

however a possible gray area I see in my suggestion is that someone could compose a ""real song"" that's like 10 seconds and rank it. so idk. maybe a hard lower bound is required, if not the collective common sense of BNs to not rank stuff like that
Aiseca
451 posts
Joined February 2017
Aiseca

MrSergio wrote:

no thanks

I consider it more to be a demo sound than an actual "song". 25 sec? Huh....
skylaa
162 posts
Joined January 2017
skylaa
25s seems a bit arbitrary becuase then all that would happen is people start trying to rank 24s songs, and then the problem repeats itself. since nao said that the main purpose is to cater for the inconvenient songs that are just below the rankable minimum (because for some reason song artists cant count to 30), we could just make exceptions based on the song, if there's nothing else available, and if the difference is small i.e. ~1s or so
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori
making case by case exceptions is just gonna lead to more moronic reddit threads honestly. and do you really trust qats to handle case by case things consistently? XD

@ everyone saying to map a real song: i map plenty of long songs and i also happen to enjoy mapping anime openings, some of which are 28 or 29 seconds of audio in their official release. if that isn't a real song to you then feel free to not play them lol.

obviously i am not trying to get ppl to rank 25s cuts, the point is that the official release of some songs IS LESS THAN 30 SECONDS and having to fuck with the song in some way to rank it is stupid. the rule can simply be, if the official release / tv size of the song is less than 30 seconds then it does not need to be edited to 30s to be rankable. i can show you plenty of maps where not editing the song would result in a perfectly viable 29 second long song. it's just easier than having to extend a synth note at the end which sounds awful or add in a piano note or whistles or something.
hi-mei
784 posts
Joined June 2014
hi-mei
u do realize that sooner or later there will be similar shit with 20 second songs and 15 second songs right?

its just a matter of respect to the rules tbh

when you see Lasse ranking shit with snap issues, then some unmodded shit at all, and then this - no shit you gonna be questioning whether they are there for Quality or for lols

this mapping game is such a joke now, it used to be laughable a year ago when sotarks' circlejerk came into QAT, now its just depressing

And you know, whats even more depressing is that all QAT > NAT restructure took a fucking 6 months of time and still not done yet.

Ephemeral been always telling me "stagnancy is our enemy" shit but how come on earth it take so much fucking time to figure out whats wrong and whats not, who cares about the game standards and who doesnt? Like, come the fuck on.

New year, same shit.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori
k posts that have actual input please
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
As you said, changing the rule in order to allow songs shorter than 30 seconds to be ranked if it's an official release/tv size version would work because it would disallow artificial cuts of that length.
How about something like
Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds unless the official release of the song is shorter than 30 seconds.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

As you said, changing the rule in order to allow songs shorter than 30 seconds to be ranked if it's an official release/tv size version would work because it would disallow artificial cuts of that length.
How about something like
Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds unless the official release of the song is shorter than 30 seconds.
Hold my beer brb
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
In order to prohibit songs below 25 seconds as well, it could simply be changed to

Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds unless the official release of the song is between 25 and 30 seconds long, in that case it must have a minimum drain time of 25 seconds.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Then in the further future there will be a request to change it to

Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds unless the official release of the song is between 20 and 30 seconds long, in that case it must have a minimum drain time of 20 seconds.

At the very least there needs to be justification why a minimum of 25 seconds should be allowed but not 20 or 24. Is this just to allow an exception due to recent events, or is there a legitimate reason why an official release up to 5 seconds shorter than what is currently should be allowed and not any shorter than that?
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

abraker wrote:

Then in the further future there will be a request to change it to

Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds unless the official release of the song is between 20 and 30 seconds long, in that case it must have a minimum drain time of 20 seconds.

At the very least there needs to be justification why a minimum of 25 seconds should be allowed but not 20 or 24. Is this just to allow an exception due to recent events, or is there are legitimate reason why an official release 5 seconds shorter than what is allowable currently should be allowed but not any shorter than that?
The reason is that many songs happen to be just below 30 seconds, like 28 or 29. I have never seen a song that's 24 or less seconds long (except the meme one you linked).
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I propose to word it as such:
Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds. In the case of official song releases, the drain time is rounded up to the nearest 5th second.

This way it would be:

19s -> 20s
20s -> 20s
21s -> 25s
22s -> 25s
23s -> 25s
24s -> 25s
25s -> 25s
26s -> 30s
27s -> 30s
28s -> 30s
29s -> 30s
30s -> 30s
... and so on

Wording it like this is better because:

1) It clearly gives the intent of the rule. Phrasing it in terms of rounding describes the point much better than explicitly stating the lengths. It is to allow music that are close to being 30s, as you said

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

The reason is that many songs happen to be just below 30 seconds, like 28 or 29.
2) Indicating an actual minimal length "25 seconds" opens up a door to future proposals trying to make it lower for whatever good or bad reasons the proposer may have. Wording it as "rounded up to the nearest 5th second" makes it far, far harder for someone to propose a rule change that allows a lower minimum drain time without changing the wording to include explicit lengths. Changing the wording of this to explicit lengths would jeopardize the point of this wording as stated in the 1st reason.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

abraker wrote:

I propose to word it as such:
Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds. In the case of official song releases, the drain time is rounded up to the nearest 5th second.

This way it would be:

19s -> 20s
20s -> 20s
21s -> 25s
22s -> 25s
23s -> 25s
24s -> 25s
25s -> 25s
26s -> 30s
27s -> 30s
28s -> 30s
29s -> 30s
30s -> 30s
... and so on

Wording it like this is better because:

1) It clearly gives the intent of the rule. Phrasing it in terms of rounding describes the point much better than explicitly stating the lengths. It is to allow music that are close to being 30s, as you said

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

The reason is that many songs happen to be just below 30 seconds, like 28 or 29.
2) Indicating an actual minimal length "25 seconds" opens up a door to future proposals trying to make it lower for whatever good or bad reasons the proposer may have. Wording it as "rounded up to the nearest 5th second" makes it far, far harder for someone to propose a rule change that allows a lower minimum drain time without changing the wording to include explicit lengths. Changing the wording of this to explicit lengths would jeopardize the point of this wording as stated in the 1st reason.
This doesn't make sense to me because the goal isn't to allow songs of all lengths, the goal is to find a solution for those 28 or 29 second maps. Also, I don't understand your wording about the rounding up, what exactly is being rounded up? The minimum drain time? If yes, I don't see how that solves the issue of needing to extend songs for the sake of rankability. As I said, further proposals would most likely not go through because there are nearly no songs below 25 seconds and even if there were, these would be really rare and the community wouldn't wanna let them get ranked
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

This doesn't make sense to me because the goal isn't to allow songs of all lengths, the goal is to find a solution for those 28 or 29 second maps.
I chose 5 seconds because it's close to what the title of this proposal suggests. If lengths no shorter than 28 seconds is desired, then rounding up to the nearest 3 seconds is more suitable.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Also, I don't understand your wording about the rounding up, what exactly is being rounded up? The minimum drain time?
Not the minimum drain time, but the drain time of the map as reported by the game.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

As I said, further proposals would most likely not go through because there are nearly no songs below 25 seconds and even if there were, these would be really rare and the community wouldn't wanna let them get ranked
While true, I don't see the harm in increasing the quality of the wording this way.

I have adjusted the wording to address the issues:

Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds. In the case of official song releases, the drain time of the map as reported by the game is rounded up to the nearest 3rd second.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

abraker wrote:

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

This doesn't make sense to me because the goal isn't to allow songs of all lengths, the goal is to find a solution for those 28 or 29 second maps.
I chose 5 seconds because it's close to what the title of this proposal suggests. If lengths no shorter than 28 seconds is desired, then rounding up to the nearest 3 seconds is more suitable.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Also, I don't understand your wording about the rounding up, what exactly is being rounded up? The minimum drain time?
Not the minimum drain time, but the drain time of the map as reported by the game.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

As I said, further proposals would most likely not go through because there are nearly no songs below 25 seconds and even if there were, these would be really rare and the community wouldn't wanna let them get ranked
While true, I don't see the harm in increasing the quality of the wording this way.

I have adjusted the wording to address the issues:

Every difficulty of a beatmapset must have a minimum drain time of 30 seconds. In the case of official song releases, the drain time of the map as reported by the game is rounded up to the nearest 3rd second.
This whole rounding thing seems unnecessarily complicated though. Making it seem like the map has more drain time than it actually has is confusing and could cause misunderstandings. Doing the opposite (accepting maps that are between 25 and 30 seconds if they're official) seems simpler to me honestly. The number 25 was chosen because it's a round number unlike 27 or 28
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I wonder how it can be confusing and cause misunderstanding since I tried my best to avoid any possibility of such.

While a bit more complicated, it also has more purpose behind it. A trade-off of sorts

At the end both variants work, so it comes down to what people value/prefer more.
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru
yes
pls do that so i can map my samsung galaxy s10 double sim 128 go white ringtone
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
a 30 second requirement seems perfectly reasonable. Nothing shorter is needed. Stop being lazy.
Ashton
1,983 posts
Joined February 2016
Ashton
Because the point of ranking beatmaps is to add playable content to this game, I think messing with audio of songs just to get it one or two seconds longer doesn't add anything of quality. Instead, it is to abide by a rule. (Sometimes even making gameplay more awkward or unintuitive.) Playing a 28 second song compared to a 30 second song is unnoticeable and doesn't effect gameplay. I think 25 seconds is a reasonable compromise, especially considering most of these 'just barely' songs are in the range of 28 - 29.9 seconds.

Many of the arguments against 25 seconds is that the same awkward extensions would begin happening. The flaw with this is there are far, far more songs that are 25 - 29 seconds than there are songs that are 20 - 24 seconds.


@tatatat Laziness has nothing to do with mapping anime openings that you enjoy, especially when it's only a two second difference.
Last edited by Ashton , edited 3 times in total.
sisig
680 posts
Joined August 2018
sisig
I also don't see the need for lowering the minimum requirement since you can just add R3 Music Box to lengthen the song like that one Dragonforce song :thonk:
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
minimum is gonna stay at 30s. songs that are near the threshold can be extended if that's doable, and poor extensions should be managed through means other than lowering the minimum length requirement. (think of what types of extensions aren't acceptable and word that into a rule if that's an outstanding concern here)
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