xsrsbsns wrote:

Sakura wrote:

No, setting a time limit will just slow the whole process down and is counter productive.

It will only shift your focus to rank older maps.

Actually, it would just cause the people in question to wait until the day the time limit's up to ask a MAT to check their map. It really wouldn't change much.

I agree on most of this.

I doubt that two weeks is enough time for the proper modders to suggest alterations to a beatmap. Remember there are patterns that aren't technically flawed, but just not as good as other patterns. If there isn't enough time for modders who actually know how to make a good suggestion to post and reply, then that beatmap could very well go through the ranking process with patterns that could be better than they are.

We are trusting that a MAT, and a single BAT have the knowledge and expertise at critiquing that they can safely say that a beatmap could not be made any better. We cannot guarantee that stars are any indication that the beatmap has been properly modded, so rushing through the ranking process should be even more of a non-option. I know that even XATs make mistakes and I know some MATs don't speak their mind as much as they should. I don't think a map should be bubbled unless it has been properly checked over by a minimum number of people that have experience in modding maps. Or we should at least limit being able to bubble unless x number of unique players have stared the map, so that self-priroritizing will have less of an pronounced effect on actual priority based on quality.

It's still a flawed system though.

Sakura wrote:

No, setting a time limit will just slow the whole process down and is counter productive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is not about the productivity. This is about the quality of the maps.

Kurokami wrote:

Sakura wrote:

No, setting a time limit will just slow the whole process down and is counter productive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is not about the productivity. This is about the quality of the maps.

Not really, i have 2 maps in the graveyard that i mapped 2 years ago, if i revived them, would you say that their quality is higher than a 2 week old map?

those and Ekaru have already explained why this wont work, a mapper could very well sit 2 weeks doing nothing and there wouldnt be any difference than looking for mods since day 1 and getting it ranked in less than 2 weeks.

TheVileOne wrote:

I agree on most of this.

I doubt that two weeks is enough time for the proper modders to suggest alterations to a beatmap. Remember there are patterns that aren't technically flawed, but just not as good as other patterns. If there isn't enough time for modders who actually know how to make a good suggestion to post and reply, then that beatmap could very well go through the ranking process with patterns that could be better than they are.

We are trusting that a MAT, and a single BAT have the knowledge and expertise at critiquing that they can safely say that a beatmap could not be made any better. We cannot guarantee that stars are any indication that the beatmap has been properly modded, so rushing through the ranking process should be even more of a non-option. I know that even XATs make mistakes and I know some MATs don't speak their mind as much as they should. I don't think a map should be bubbled unless it has been properly checked over by a minimum number of people that have experience in modding maps. Or we should at least limit being able to bubble unless x number of unique players have stared the map, so that self-priroritizing will have less of an pronounced effect on actual priority based on quality.

It's still a flawed system though.

This is a good idea. Additionally to the minimum required time, there should be a minimum number of mods required before a map can be bubbled.

Sakura wrote:

Not really, i have 2 maps in the graveyard that i mapped 2 years ago, if i revived them, would you say that their quality is higher than a 2 week old map?

Those maps aren't finished, so they wouldn't even qualify. A map needs to be completed and in pending for the new rule to apply.

And how do you tell?

Edit: How do you tell since when it was completed and in pending i mean, if the thread is revived, there would be no evidence of it ever going to the graveyard.

Sakura wrote:

Not really, i have 2 maps in the graveyard that i mapped 2 years ago, if i revived them, would you say that their quality is higher than a 2 week old map?

those and Ekaru have already explained why this wont work, a mapper could very well sit 2 weeks doing nothing and there wouldnt be any difference than looking for mods since day 1 and getting it ranked in less than 2 weeks.

If you mean these 2
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15546
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/14675
You don't even care about them. They just got a few mod and nothing else.
I'm not on the same side with the time limit. I'm on the side of a maps with good quality. Time limit is good as long as the mapper is get mods but when they are just sitting and waiting for the time limit to be over, meh...
If the addable SP get a limit to 1 then the mapper must wait until his/her maps get more mods/SP, this way the time limit will be unnecessary since when the map is already has +12 SP, possible the map is already 2 weeks old.

Actually i meant this: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15408 and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/16392 this =P

Oh boy this shit thread again.

I've been here for 3-4 years, you're wasting your time, nothing will change. You either suck-up to the BATs, or make sure you make some damn good maps.

Setting a "time-limit" for maps to get ranked is silly, what's the point in keeping a map in pending if it's already finished/modded and ready to get ranked?

Sakura wrote:

And how do you tell?

Edit: How do you tell since when it was completed and in pending i mean, if the thread is revived, there would be no evidence of it ever going to the graveyard.

Well, it would be problematic if you have a lying mapper at your hands. I for one, only put my maps into the Pending forum if they're 100% complete.
I guess you'd have no choice but to trust the mapper on that question.

Ranking is not a process to please an individual mapper for his work and pat his shoulder. Ranking bears relevance to the whole community and is partially driven by it, maps with more relevance (higher priority) should be ranked first, since they got a larger effect on the community than a map that maybe only pleases the mapper him-/herself.

Furthermore you can push your map to have high priority either by spending your own kudosu, or now as well by getting mods on your map. Time should never be relevant to a map since completely fresh maps can be as good as 1 year old maps.

@Sakura http://osu.ppy.sh/s/16392 Same what I stated above. The other one is good enough.

Gabi wrote:

Setting a "time-limit" for maps to get ranked is silly, what's the point in keeping a map in pending if it's already finished/modded and ready to get ranked?

I have some experience with this and now i don't want to say anything about it.

Gabi wrote:

Setting a "time-limit" for maps to get ranked is silly, what's the point in keeping a map in pending if it's already finished/modded and ready to get ranked?

That's quite true, but you're not looking at the big picture. The point is, there are tons of other such old maps in pending that aren't given attention. So why?

That said, a map is never considered 'finished modding' anyway since there will always be room for improvement. The increase in pending time would allow for more chances of modding.

xsrsbsns wrote:

That said, a map is never considered 'finished modding' anyway since there will always be room for improvement. The increase in pending time would allow for more chances of modding.

Wishful thinking, but very few people randomly mod maps that nobody is asking to be modded.

@Ekaru
If the people in question really don't care about their maps, it's their loss.
The other part of the deal still stands, which is the attention of older maps.

With the latest introduction to maps that they now automatically get a star upon receiving a mod (which I heard about just today), I have a new idea.

When we reform the star priority system so that only the amount of mods a map has received is going to count, it is going to make the kuduso system obsolete.

However, this way, it will truly reflect the actual popularity of a map in the community. If you like a map and want it to be ranked faster, the only way to increase the priority is to actually mod the map. To not make kudosu absolutely worthless, you can shoot a limited number of stars upon receiving kudosu from the mapper. The mapper himself will be able to shoot a limited number of stars to his own map, too. I was thinking about limiting the number a modder can give out is 2, so that in combination with the mod, you will only be able to shoot 3 stars. The mapper himself will be limited to 3, too.

In order to make this work as a Anti-Speedranking rule, the timelimit definitely is necessary. The minimum number of stars needed to receive a bubble has already been increased to 12, so if you ask a whole bunch of people to mod your map, those 12 stars can be reached quickly. In order to eliminate this, the timelimit will come in effect. Technically, you will need at least 3 modders, each giving you 2 additional stars and your own 3 stars to reach 12 total stars.

Also, in order to increase the priority of old, bubbled maps, a bubbled map will receive a star (or two) for every week it has the bubble icon.

xsrsbsns wrote:

That's quite true, but you're not looking at the big picture. The point is, there are tons of other such old maps in pending that aren't given attention. So why?

These maps will not get attention even if they would introduce a time limit, so what exactly will we achieve by doing this? BATs rarely mod maps by star prior, let alone random maps.

After all this, i've been curious, what is you guys' definition of "speedranking" to me is getting a map from pending to ranked in a quick ammount of time in a rushy/reckless way, this can happen at anytime regardless of the age of the map.

If you think "speedranking" is getting a map ranked in less than -Insert Time Frame here- then you're mistaken.

If a map is good, and someone has the ability to find the modders neccessary to speedrank it, then there shouldn't really be a problem.

The reason maps get speedranked is that the mapper is known as a mapper that knows what (s)he is doing. For instance, when I send people my map to mod, I've built up a reputation as a mapper who doesn't know what he's doing, so many people will just ignore me. Now if I were to tag a big "ztrot" or "DJPop" name on it, I'd get a bunch of mods. Because, you know, they're good maps. Good maps that people will enjoy and should be ranked. People are also inherently lazy, so they'd rather mod a map from someone that they know will probably be really good rather then a map that will require a giant mod post.

The only problem I have with speedranking is if the map actually isn't very good. What people assume when they want to say "STOP SPEEDRANKING" is that they want really skilled mappers to make a great map, and then stare at a brick wall, and then get their stuff ranked.

osu! is a game, and the sad truth is, not everyone is going to get their maps ranked evenly. Hell, I've been working on Listen!! for 1.5 years, and it's not even close to being ranked atm. But that's because it still have its issues. Every mod post I get will say stuff that I find relevant to change. I very rarely get a "this map is good, star~" post, because the map just isn't top quality. osu! should have the best of the best maps ranked, and if that means that it all comes from a few people, then that's how it is.

The way I see a map's rankability is if

A) The map plays well
B) I can find no technical problems
C) If it's fitting to ranking criteria

if a map fits that in 5 days, 5 weeks, or 5 months, it doesn't neccesarily matter. Everyone is at a different skill level, and can produce quality maps at a different rate. There shouldn't be a limitation to how fast a map gets ranked as long as its a quality map. If there's unrankable crap there, then that's when it starts sucking.

I literally just woke up, so sorry if this argument isn't formatted the very best.

Starrodkirby86 wrote:

What's the importance of a speedrank? Does it matter to one that a map must get ranked? A map is remembered for its quality, not for how fast it goes in and out of Pending.

SpeedRank

i dont care... speed rank....
just let they make their own game...
if you are pro mapper...
your graveyard... must be creepy...
with graveyarded maps...

let peoples being sad...
because your map being ignored and died...
your map...
is awesome...
because not speedranked...

-end-

this shitty poem by : zeroclover , request from my friend
dont ban me

if you want get priority for your maps, u can ask someone for mods
but star priority not ensure your map will be ranked fast, you need some black magic ritual and entering to dark side room of ******

I understand Tenshi's view, but we can't set a rule just because people makes Maps which are ready and are rankable.
Even when I hate this for myself (because I hate it when people get something ranked in less than three Weeks), this would be unfair more or less.

I just hate when one map is get ranked, I play it, get fc below 5 tries, then the map is become unranked, because someone find problems with it. I think it better if these problems are actually be corrected before the ranked status, not after. If the modders are really able to speedrank a map, then they are must find these kind of mistakes.

I don't care about the speedrank thingy as long as the map is stay ranked after it became ranked.

Tenshi-nyan wrote:

With the latest introduction to maps that they now automatically get a star upon receiving a mod (which I heard about just today), I have a new idea.

When we reform the star priority system so that only the amount of mods a map has received is going to count, it is going to make the kuduso system obsolete.

Agree with this one.

Tenshi-nyan wrote:

With the latest introduction to maps that they now automatically get a star upon receiving a mod (which I heard about just today), I have a new idea.

When we reform the star priority system so that only the amount of mods a map has received is going to count, it is going to make the kuduso system obsolete.

why would people mod then?
Only the people who want the map ranked. You achieve nothing then for modding?
Why would i waste my time with anything then?
yeahyeah m4m ... but who tells me that the mod helps me? If I mod i get at least a Star so even if the other one fails i won something.
Newbie mappers have it even harder then for getting their map ranked.

Kurokami wrote:

I just hate when one map is get ranked, I play it, get fc below 5 tries, then the map is become unranked, because someone find problems with it. I think it better if these problems are actually be corrected before the ranked status, not after. If the modders are really able to speedrank a map, then they are must find these kind of mistakes.

I don't care about the speedrank thingy as long as the map is stay ranked after it became ranked.

This, this, and this.

If you're going to speedrank, then at least make sure the map is 100% rankable before ranking it. If that's accomplished then I don't really have any problems with it. On the other hand, if your maps consistently get unranked after they get speedranked, then that's a sign that you're doing it wrong.

I guess we can all agree that setting a time limit isn't the way to go, and we can pretty much discuss anything else in another thread probably in another forum.

Dangaard wrote:

Ranking is not a process to please an individual mapper for his work and pat his shoulder. Ranking bears relevance to the whole community and is partially driven by it, maps with more relevance (higher priority) should be ranked first, since they got a larger effect on the community than a map that maybe only pleases the mapper him-/herself.

highly disagree with this, the relevance of the same mappers maps again and again isn't higher than the relevance of little gems.
I see the same names in the ranked maps over and over again, and the maps play 90% the same. only because they have a high star priority doesn't mean that the community likes this map, atleast not if one person can shoot 20 stars on a map, therefore it shows the opinion of one person, not of the community as a whole. since 95% of the community doesn't even have kudosus, you can only represent the opinion of the remaining 5% of the community with the SP.

long story short: the community doesn't want the map with the highest SP, it wants the highest variety of maps from different mappers possible. this cannot be accomplished by following only the SP, because the same people will receive all the mods, while others doon't receive a single one.

Tanzklaue wrote:

long story short: the community doesn't want the map with the highest SP, it wants the highest variety of maps from different mappers possible. this cannot be accomplished by following only the SP, because the same people will receive all the mods, while others doon't receive a single one.

We know what we are doing and this wont happen, if you see the first page of ranked maps, all creators are different.

Don't forget that the SP isn't coming from nowhere and that the kds are not earned by being famous.
They contributed mods to other maps in order to earn them, so their SP is an outcome of what they contributed to other people's work

Loctav wrote:

Don't forget that the SP isn't coming from nowhere and that the kds are not earned by being famous.
They contributed mods to other maps in order to earn them, so their SP is an outcome of what they contributed to other people's work

that doesn't change the fact that one person can throw so many SP at one map, so it still only represents the opinion of one person, though it is a person who knows what he/she does.

well, I see nothing wrong to reward the people who actually pay effords to mod other people's work with giving their own work more attention.

Loctav wrote:

well, I see nothing wrong to reward the people who actually pay effords to mod other people's work with giving their own work more attention.

This was actually the original intent of the kudosu and SP systems. 'Course, as Gabi said it all went to hell after like a week because some error-filled maps screwed up the system because they kept on getting modded due to priority but couldn't get ranked due to being filled with problems.

If you want to discuss the SP system, feel free to make a thread somewhere else, but dont draw the discussion more offtopic in here, post here to discuss the original intention of this rule (which i nuked since no one seems to favor it) if i see this discussion go more offtopic i'll be forced to lock the thread.

Before discussing the SP System take in mind these arguments:

I haven't read this whole thread, but I agree that there should be at least a hard limit of maybe two weeks. Furthermore, unless my memory fails me (it probably has), a lot of speedranks don't appear to have the necessary star priority. Really, I think that it'd be better if a map was at least given a substantial amount of time for scrutiny. Just because one or a few MATs/BATs think that something's good enough to be ranked, it doesn't mean that somebody else could find something that could be changed.

Just took a glance at this entire thread, and to be frank... If a map is good, then why not? But on the flip side, if a map is bad and is speedranked, then here entails the problem.

Good and bad is subjective, but what I mean by these words is good for the ranking criteria, and that the mapper does follow what modders have given them for their map.

iMercurial wrote:

Usually, speedranks don't have too many stars to say "Yeah, mod me and rank me".

2 Examples.

t/84715
t/83025

Yeah

If you see a person asking people to testplay, mod, and even star maps, and people say it's fine, or give no feedback, then you see a speedrank as a result, then you cannot blame the mapper for the speed. This is mainly pointed at iMercurial, as he indicated my last two maps were "speedranked".

When your friends happen to be MAT's and BAT's, and you ask them to mod it as well, and they give the same response, all you can do is shrug. I don't ask for bubbles, nor do I ask for ranks. I just ask for my friends to mod my maps, as I would rather them compared to a random modder.

modding old maps is just slowing down good new maps being ranked

modding high SP maps is just slowing down good maps with less SP being ranked

it's all because there are too many maps

there are 3000+ maps in pending/WIP, of course MATs/BATs can choose what to mod/rank regardless of fairness

mapping less is the best solution here

D33d wrote:

I haven't read this whole thread, but I agree that there should be at least a hard limit of maybe two weeks. Furthermore, unless my memory fails me (it probably has), a lot of speedranks don't appear to have the necessary star priority. Really, I think that it'd be better if a map was at least given a substantial amount of time for scrutiny. Just because one or a few MATs/BATs think that something's good enough to be ranked, it doesn't mean that somebody else could find something that could be changed.

The problem with a time limit is that these mappers aren't necessarily going to put unnecessary effort into getting more mods just because they have to wait longer. They are much more likely to just wait until the time limit's up after they feel that their map's ready for ranking.

And yes, all modern speedranks do have the necessary SP. They can't get around that rule, but they do have connections that can assist them with getting the necessary SP really, really quickly.

Well, I guess this thread got only started because people have the feeling old bubbles (with low SP) are ignored by BATs whereas some maps get ranked even hours after their bubble. So why not pick up this suggestion:

Tenshi-nyan wrote:

Also, in order to increase the priority of old, bubbled maps, a bubbled map will receive a star (or two) for every week it has the bubble icon.

A time limit as suggested is actually useless in my eyes since if a map is ready then it is ready, if not then not. Anyway I don't see a problem with a time limit. I mean waiting 2 weeks for your map to get ranked isn't hard. Useless but not harmful rule so to speak.

Ekaru wrote:

D33d wrote:

I haven't read this whole thread, but I agree that there should be at least a hard limit of maybe two weeks. Furthermore, unless my memory fails me (it probably has), a lot of speedranks don't appear to have the necessary star priority. Really, I think that it'd be better if a map was at least given a substantial amount of time for scrutiny. Just because one or a few MATs/BATs think that something's good enough to be ranked, it doesn't mean that somebody else could find something that could be changed.

The problem with a time limit is that these mappers aren't necessarily going to put unnecessary effort into getting more mods just because they have to wait longer. They are much more likely to just wait until the time limit's up after they feel that their map's ready for ranking.

And yes, all modern speedranks do have the necessary SP. They can't get around that rule, but they do have connections that can assist them with getting the necessary SP really, really quickly.

As far as I see it, a bubble can be still left to sit, so that it gives users a chance to pop it. I see nothing wrong with a popular mapper waiting for two weeks, when many have to wait for up to a year, despite their best efforts.

How to get your map modded, in order of effectiveness
1) Bug people until they mod your map
2) Bug people until they mod your map
3) Bug people until they mod your map
4) Bug people until they mod your map
5) Bug people until they mod your map
6) Ask people to mod your map
7) Post in mod queues
8) Post in full mod queues
9) Get your map on the first page of non-bubbles
10) Post in modreqs
11) Give your map more priority

The people who are good at #1-6 are the speedrankers. If you want to fix that, then you need to bump #7-11 up in the list somehow. The easiest way would be to get more modders.

ziin wrote:

How to get your map modded, in order of effectiveness
1) Bug people until they mod your map
2) Bug people until they mod your map
3) Bug people until they mod your map
4) Bug people until they mod your map
5) Bug people until they mod your map
6) Ask people to mod your map
7) Post in mod queues
8) Post in full mod queues
9) Get your map on the first page of non-bubbles
10) Post in modreqs
11) Give your map more priority

The people who are good at #1-6 are the speedrankers. If you want to fix that, then you need to bump #7-11 up in the list somehow. The easiest way would be to get more modders.

Just did #1 and I somehow got a bubble out of it.

This list is magical, ziin!

ziin wrote:

How to get your map modded, in order of effectiveness
1) Bug people until they mod your map
2) Bug people until they mod your map
3) Bug people until they mod your map
4) Bug people until they mod your map
5) Bug people until they mod your map
6) Ask people to mod your map
7) Post in mod queues
8) Post in full mod queues
9) Get your map on the first page of non-bubbles
10) Post in modreqs
11) Give your map more priority

The people who are good at #1-6 are the speedrankers. If you want to fix that, then you need to bump #7-11 up in the list somehow. The easiest way would be to get more modders.

Every words in this list is true.

How to get your map ranked, in order of effectiveness
1) Make it flawless
2) Put a lot of effort into the map. Make it awesome and stand out from the crowd.
3) Make it a popular song (call it controversial, but popular songs are the ones people want to play, so why not?)
4) Have a history of flawless maps (so modders/BATs are more likely to know how easily it can be ranked)
5) Give and receive. Offer to trade mods. Show that you aren't just about "me, me, me"
6) High SP, since we mod and rank at least 50% based on SP of maps.

Also consider that what you call "speedranking" is only so fast because there are minor/no issues. You can't "speedrank" most maps because they you know, require modding.

No rule needs to exist to solve this problem that doesn't exist.

Agree with peppy ~

The question is, numbers of shit maps still got speedranking.
How to explain that.

peppy wrote:

No rule needs to exist to solve this problem that doesn't exist.

The best example to this is Rika's last map. It became unranked just because someone not noticed some mistakes.
I'm okay with the speedranks as long as they not become unranked because of some minor error which are easily noticable with a few test play.

peppy wrote:

How to get your map ranked, in order of effectiveness
1) Make it flawless
2) Put a lot of effort into the map. Make it awesome and stand out from the crowd.
3) Make it a popular song
4) Have a history of flawless maps (so modders/BATs are more likely to know how easily it can be ranked)
5) Give and receive. Offer to trade mods. Show that you aren't just about "me, me, me"
6) High SP, since we mod and rank at least 50% based on SP of maps.

Also consider that what you call "speedranking" is only so fast because there are minor/no issues. You can't "speedrank" most maps because they you know, require modding.

No rule needs to exist to solve this problem that doesn't exist.

Note that everything but #6 applied back in mid to late 2008. And yes, contrary to what some of you newfags think, quite a few people had trouble getting their maps ranked back then (mainly towards the end of 2008 when osu! started picking up in popularity) while some of us got stuff ranked at speeds that make today's "speedranking" look "bleh". (Also, making connections helps, but making said connections effective requires #4.)

EDIT: Also, speedranked maps becoming unranked is a different issue.

JauiPlaY wrote:

The question is, numbers of shit maps still got speedranking.
How to explain that.

[citation needed]

in any case, this thread needs a lock. Too many opinions. No logical discussion to be had here. Too many people talking. Limit the discussion to the *AT forum.

ziin wrote:

in any case, this thread needs a lock. Too many opinions. No logical discussion to be had here. Too many people talking. Limit the discussion to the *AT forum.

I agree with this, but the *ATs are just going to say "We don't see any problem here', then forget about this thread.

peppy wrote:

How to get your map ranked, in order of effectiveness
1) Make it flawless
2) Put a lot of effort into the map. Make it awesome and stand out from the crowd.
3) Make it a popular song (call it controversial, but popular songs are the ones people want to play, so why not?)
4) Have a history of flawless maps (so modders/BATs are more likely to know how easily it can be ranked)
5) Give and receive. Offer to trade mods. Show that you aren't just about "me, me, me"
6) High SP, since we mod and rank at least 50% based on SP of maps.

Also consider that what you call "speedranking" is only so fast because there are minor/no issues. You can't "speedrank" most maps because they you know, require modding.

No rule needs to exist to solve this problem that doesn't exist.

Though I don't speak a lot in these types of discussions, I gotta go with the big man on this one. Just because someone's map get ranked in a few days doesn't mean you're gonna kill yourself and cry foul over connections and stuff. My dad always says this; " small contribution, big profit". Plus you don't need to follow the "TV Size/Nightcore/Short Ver." crowd to get noticed and stuff.

Kurokami wrote:

peppy wrote:

No rule needs to exist to solve this problem that doesn't exist.

The best example to this is Rika's last map. It became unranked just because someone not noticed some mistakes.
I'm okay with the speedranks as long as they not become unranked because of some minor error which are easily noticable with a few test play.

Cases like this are penalised heavily in the team, so don't worry about that.