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[Suggestion] Taiko maps Difficulty spread

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79
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
I believe that if Taiko maps are included with a song, they should follow similar difficulty spread rules that osu! uses. This basically means there should be an easy/normal Taiko map if there is an Oni map. Too many new players lose interest in taiko because they can't play the hard difficulties (labeled Oni, something most newbies don't translate to "insane"). The Taiko maps made from normal beatmaps suffer from too many rolls, simple patterns, and no training value.

So yea. I'm half asleep and allergic to air, so ignore anything that seems too ridiculous about this
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
At least these days limitation of number of difficulties increases to 8, I don't think lots of owners of mapsets, which are mostly osu standard mappers, are eager to give more than 1 empty slots to Taiko guest mappers. This suggestion is reasonable but we cannot force it.

But maybe we can mention this as recommendation or guideline, though not in the rules.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
The thing is...
1. Most osu Easy/Normal could be converted to taiko fine. (though not perfect), so there's no really need to do so.
2. Though we have 8 diffs max, some mappers (including me) still wants a 6 osu standard mapset, that means, won't have enough slot in some of the cases.
3. Assuming we now have a 6 osu +2 taiko set, the 2 taiko should probably be Oni + Inner Oni / Muzukashii + Oni because these diffs makes the most difference with osu converted map, should be solved first.

So yeah, agree with lepi, guideline is fine, rule is no.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: About #1, personally I don't think that is fine enough to be 'fine', but whatever. Agree with your opinions.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos

NatsumeRin wrote:

The thing is...
1. Most osu Easy/Normal could be converted to taiko fine. (though not perfect), so there's no really need to do so.
2. Though we have 8 diffs max, some mappers (including me) still wants a 6 osu standard mapset, that means, won't have enough slot in some of the cases.
3. Assuming we now have a 6 osu +2 taiko set, the 2 taiko should probably be Oni + Inner Oni / Muzukashii + Oni because these diffs makes the most difference with osu converted map, should be solved first.

So yeah, agree with lepi, guideline is fine, rule is no.
With number one... not really. Rolls in taiko are usually used 4-10 times in a song, instead of 20-40 times. Most converted songs are either fully don (red) notes, mostly sliderrolls, or just so boring for new players that they don't learn anything from the map and they actually get deterred from continuing playing Taiko.

2. This would probably increase the number of allowed maps if they are Taiko or CtB maps your trying to fit in.

3. Almost the entire suggestion is making it so you can't have oni+ inner oni without having an easier difficulty (not muzukashii, lower). Normal osu maps being played on taiko do not provide a valid supplement for an authentic kataan or futuu difficulty, because of reasons I posted above.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
If I remember, it was been discussed that non-standard mapsets had to follow similiar mapset rules to standard mapsets.

You can't enforce this on "standard mapset", but you can on "non-standard" Taiko-only ( or Taiko+CtB-only ) mapsets.

e.g. a map with 4 Taiko, should have at least one easier difficulty.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
Thing is, authentic/full taiko mapsets are pretty difficult to find. Searching "Taiko no Tatsujin", "Taiko Authentic", or even the song name usually doesn't get you results (yes I made sure I was searching all beatmaps, not just ranked). It's really difficulty to start playing taiko because authentic mapsets with the easier difficulties are hard to find for newbies, and standard map sets only have Onis and Inner Onis. This suggestion would put taiko maps in a similar state as osu! standard maps when it comes to difficulty curve. If you have a Taiko Oni, you should have a Taiko Kataan/Fuutuu. You don't have to make 4 different taiko diffs, just have an easier one.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Taiko and CtB mapsets have been permitted recently, what you expected? In the past someone did create some "Authentic" Taiko maps by mapping them while respecting the Taiko original pattern... you remembere the "Taikosu" or so, right?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Hm, I agree with your points Mithost.
But what NatsumeRin said is also not that wrong.
lepidopodus is also right with the said things.

But about futsuu... well that's such a problem.
Personaly I would like to see more futsuu, but it's hard to have Futsuu + Oni because of the diff spread. Muzukashii + Oni fit's here better and as lepidopodus said many times before: Oni represents the style of a mapper really good. - so we can't force them to map Futsuu or Muzukashii.

At least adding this as guideline would be not a bad idea.

Also @ Mithost, please change the name of the topic to ,,[Taiko | Guideline] Taiko maps Difficulty spread" so Sakura sees that this has something to do with the taiko rules/guidelines.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I think he means Futsuu + Muzukashii + Oni
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
I'm just generally saying there should be an easier difficulty taiko chart when there is an Oni/Inner Oni. An easy Muzukashii or something would probably suffice.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Basically something like how I started doung in my maps (this) (adding a Muzukashii)

Well, you can't avoid people doing 2+1 spreads and not accepting guests, though
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The reason i extended the difficulty limit was in hopes of seeing better taiko spreads, just saying.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
This. (Sorry if I make promotion for it. orz)
Threads like the Easy Taiko Map Project made me thinks about this.
So I added to my new Map, which will be submitted soon, a Taiko Diff (a Futsuu) because they're too less easy Taiko Diffs out.
I made it myself; it isn't so hard like I thought, even if it's just a Futsuu Diff. ^^
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito

Sakura wrote:

The reason i extended the difficulty limit was in hopes of seeing better taiko spreads, just saying.
Well, tbh it worked allready a bit. At least I noticed it. Got more chances to map 3 diff's at once, as you said Muzukashii+Oni+Inner.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45107 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41885
Anyway, back to topic. As I said, if people and you agree, we may add this guideline into the taiko guidelines.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
The things with the "easy taiko mappack" or other unofficial taiko collaborations is that by the time players find a link to some easy maps, they have already played enough normal osu! and been on the forums enough, so they should have already had an experience with a bad/difficult taiko map.

The muzukashii maps that are being ranked right now are nice, but I still think a new player that is curious about taiko will not be able to pass 90% of them within a few tries. I don't think this will be done justice until people move from 7-8 star taiko muzukashii maps down to 4-6 star ones, the ones I started on when I played taiko PSP for the first time. Adding a muzukashii on some of these maps just looks like an excuse to make the Oni more difficult because you have something that is lower than your intended Oni difficulty, even if it's by a small amount.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

The reason i extended the difficulty limit was in hopes of seeing better taiko spreads, just saying.
At least current situation is better than before...
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

Anyway, back to topic. As I said, if people and you agree, we may add this guideline into the taiko guidelines.
If you want however, if this is accepted it should also be mentioned in the General rule about diff spread that Taiko isn't an exception
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

OnosakiHito wrote:

Anyway, back to topic. As I said, if people and you agree, we may add this guideline into the taiko guidelines.
I would be glad if this will be implenment it. Support. \o\
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos

Sakura wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

Anyway, back to topic. As I said, if people and you agree, we may add this guideline into the taiko guidelines.
If you want however, if this is accepted it should also be mentioned in the General rule about diff spread that Taiko isn't an exception
That would do nicely. Most people just look at the general rules (or not in come cases :P) and if they want a Taiko beatmap they get a guest mapper who usually knows the "current" Taiko guidelines. If nobody sees it, there is more work for the MATs and BATs that have to point out that there should be an easy-ish taiko difficulty in there somewhere.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
From the General Rules:

the difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order and/or with a reasonable gap between them; there should be at least one difficulty around ~2.5/3 star difficulty level; if your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be insane
What do we change this to?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Guideline
the taiko difficulties in the mapset should be in a consecutive order and/or with a reasonable gap between them; it is suggested to make at least one difficulty around a Muzukashii lvl; if your mapset has two difficulties, it is prefered to have one easier diff..
?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

If you want however, if this is accepted it should also be mentioned in the General rule about diff spread that Taiko isn't an exception
Merely mentioning 'not an exception' isn't appropriate, since in most case there are not many Taiko maps in one map set so it would be hard to decide whether difficulties are in 'consecutive order' or something, and in general rules the limitations are based on star difficulty level but Taiko map does not follow star difficulty level very well. (Well actually in current system it's not so certain that which general rules are also applied Taiko maps while some are not.)

Well seems we are making some new words, though.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
Taiko's 10 star ranking system is based off of the inclusion of patterns and the BPM/Speed that you have to hit the patterns to. osu!'s is based on other things, and osu!taiko maps are confused at why they instantly get 4 1/2 stars for 1 minute of alternating dons and kats.

The guideline should be this:

"If your mapset includes one taiko difficulty of Oni (Level 4 diff) or higher, your mapset should also include an easy Muzukashi (level 3 diff) or below, so new players can play Taiko to your songs. If you have an easier Muzukashi difficulty, it is not required to have an Oni."

The only thing missing from this is defining what the highest difficulty allowed for this rule. If we were using taiko star ranks, I would say 4-5 star maps should be the highest you go.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
SPOILER
Sorry, what did you said?
There is a skin which shows the star rating. But nevermind which one you are using, it is everytime somehow messed up. Muzukashii is often enough shown as 5 or 4 1/2 star diff..
So I disagree using such restrictions, especially because nearly no one of the taiko guys even know the real star raiting, so it is meanless to use it.
Even if it is a guideline, it is enough to mention that it would be better to have an easier diff. then an Oni. Or maybe it would be even better ,,having no same-lvl'd diff's".

Edit:

Mithost wrote:

"If your mapset includes one taiko difficulty of Oni (Level 4 diff) or higher, your mapset should also include an easy Muzukashi (level 3 diff) or below
Example:
Taikosaki lvl 5 on osu star raiting. Say, taiko lvl 13*.
Now I should map an map with osu star raiting 3, say lvl 7* Muzukashii.

Really bad diff. spready if you ask me. That's why I say to use a more generel word like: ,,if your mapset has two difficulties, it is prefered to have one easier diff.."
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
I'm just trying to figure out what is considered "easier". I could make a "muzukashi" be my Oni and have my Inner Oni labeled as a normal Oni. Still doesn't fix the problem. The osu! star system is messed up and really needs fixing too. We can't base it off of the star system, score depends on the song length (and the star rating) so that's out, and judging every song might be difficult unless we have a dedicated BAT member focused SOLELY on making sure the spread is good.

Simply saying "if you have an oni, you need something easier" basically screams "Let a guest make a map that is arguably the same difficulty, then figure out which one is easier later". It doesn't fix the problem.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
[*]If you want to have more than one Taiko or CtB difficulty, make sure you have a decent spread. If you have two Taikos, try to have one Oni and one Futsuu/Muzukashii, for example. This will permit even player Taiko or Ctb Beginner player to play your beatmap.
might be an example?
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

[*]If you want to have more than one Taiko or CtB difficulty, make sure you have a decent difficulty spread. For example, If you have two Taiko maps, try to have one Oni and one Futsuu/Muzukashii. This will permit even player Taiko or Ctb Beginner player to play your beatmap.
might be an example?
That works nicely. Just changed a bit of wording to make it a bit more clear :3
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Didn't I say 'star difficulty does not work so well with Taiko'? Whether difficulty spread is good or not will be decided manually.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos

lepidopodus wrote:

Didn't I say 'star difficulty does not work so well with Taiko'? Whether difficulty spread is good or not will be decided manually.
When I said star difficulty I mean't the way authentic taiko songs are ranked in taiko games, not osu!.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Well then I need to explain about difficulty system that TnT is using, which we are based on. Judging from those posts I don't think guys are know this accurately.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

lepidopodus wrote:

Well then I need to explain about difficulty system that TnT is using, which we are based on. Judging from those posts I don't think guys are know this accurately.
Can you please do so? Videos would probably help you a lot with explaining this.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
We traditionally followed old TnT scale of difficulty. Since influence of 'authentist' weakens these days, so revised TnT scale wasn't successfully implemented to osu! Taiko community. I can show some sample maps for each difficulty for both scale since they are basically similar, but hard to tell exact principle, I guess. We don't need to strictly follow those scales though.

Some basics about TnT scales
- Basically 4 difficulty level: Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni. Prefix 'Inner' is used when there is one more map for certain difficulty level, and it doesn't need to be more difficult than original one. (But in osu! Taiko community, Inner Oni means maps harder than general Oni maps.)
- Maps are divided into Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni first, then get star difficulty scale. Due to this, even if the two maps which are in different difficulty levels have the same star difficulty scale, actual difficulty of the maps can be quite different. For example, Oni lvl. 8 is usually much more harder than Muzukashii lvl. 8
- Maximum star difficulty scales are: 65 for Kantan, 7 for Futsuu, 8 for Muzukashii, 10 for Oni. (Some osu! Taiko mappers are using above this but those are kinda dogmatic.)
- Difference between old TnT scale and revised TnT scale is redistribution of star difficulty scale for Hard maps. For example, Saitama2000 which was Oni lvl. 9 in old TnT scale is lvl. 7 in revised TnT scale. (NBGI did not re-rate every maps though.)

EDIT: Whoops, wrong in maximum star rate in Kantan.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Never Talked about star rating. In fact it doesn't even work that good in standard (It's rather generic and old). Plus if a difficulty spread is good is decided by modders and MATs or BATs who check, as it is a guideline...
Thank for the explanation, how the rating tech changed? what it rated less difficulty and more difficulty?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
By the way, the difficulty level names are not necessarily in order of actual map difficulty, it depends on the song and diff star rating (for example, a 8* Muzukashii is WAY harder than a 1* Oni and can even be harder than, say, a 5* Oni)
A bit confusing, but that's how Namco handles those things~
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Kantan: 1*~10*
Futsuu: 1*~10*
Muzukashii: 1*~10*
Oni: 1*~10*

~ Kantan 10* = Futsuu 1*; Futsuu 10* = Muzukashii 1*; Muzukashii 10* = Oni 1*

^ I never thought about this. After lepidopodus said it I noticed it.
So you say it is like that in Namco or you were not sure?

At least it would make sense why some Muzukashii's are ratet the same like Oni?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
No, Kantan only goes up to 5*, Futsuu to 7*, Muzukashii to 8* and Oni to 10*
There is no such thing as a 8* Kantan or a 10* Muzukashii
And, as I mentioned, Oni is not necessarily harder than Muzukashii. Just compare a 8* Muzukashii (like Ridge Racer) to a 1* Oni (Mori no Kumasan)
/E: fix'd Kantan star limit
Last edited by Luna , edited 1 time in total.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
Kinda derailing here. We can't judge a taiko difficulty through osu! unless the star rating system gets a much needed overhaul. Namco has not released their rating system formula to us either. I think just judging the spread can be another thing mods/MATs/BATs look for when ranking taiko maps.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: We don't follow exact 'formula' or something cause we don't know much about it. (Actually I'm not sure about it's existence, lol. TnT leveling was quite inconsistent through series.) But we followed the form of that rate system traditionally and judging custom difficulties by comparing those with existing authentic maps and that is why I specified that. You mentioned an example before (starting like 'The guideline should be this:') and I thought that you have some incorrect concept of those terms about difficulties, so that is why I said that. When we make some limitations it is important to make the meanings confident, not to make problems of interpretation.

BTW I agree with 'judging the spread can be another thing mods/MATs/BATs'.
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

Luna wrote:

No, Kantan only goes up to 5*, Futsuu to 7*, Muzukashii to 8* and Oni to 10*
I have fixed it, it's Kantan up to 5*, not 6. (Correct me if I'm wrong I'm not really following the changes in taiko lol)

@^:
But in osu! Taiko community, Inner Oni means maps harder than general Oni maps.
It has been common knowledge in here that Inner Oni maps were way harder, examples are numerous : BRA, Rotter Tarm, Etude Op. 10-4, Angel dream... which note clusters are very insane. However some cases are the contrary : On my side I find Yozakura Ura way easier than Regular.

Difference between old TnT scale and revised TnT scale is redistribution of star difficulty scale for Hard maps. For example, Saitama2000 which was Oni lvl. 9 in old TnT scale is lvl. 7 in revised TnT scale. (NBGI did not re-rate every maps though.)
Hoping that the 9* in Family dondon was a pure joke, I still can't FC this, imo it's more of a 10* <_<

About the osu! star rating, it is rated with the number of NPS in the song (I remember having a song so slow that I hit 2,5 stars for Oni)


The difficulty should be in the map itself imo. If you map it as Muzukashii, then it should be.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: My mistake. Kantan is up to *5. And just to mention, Family DonDon never included to new AC so there isn't any revised scale for that map.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
Someone who makes an Oni and an Ura Oni who don't get ranked because of this rule could usually change the names so you have muzukashii and an oni then ask a new BAT to rank it. This is why we either need great BATs or a better ranking system. :S
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
I don't any intention to force that, for now, though, as I previously said. If the mapper wants Oni & Inner Oni even if others said much about difficulty spread, let him/her do it.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
What's the basis of ranking and approval with Taiko?
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
The feeling of a chart can say the difficulty alone, but there is actually no difference between Ura and Regular. What I can say is that Ura name should only be given on the second Taiko diff made/added. (As it is a hidden-like chart)
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

those wrote:

What's the basis of ranking and approval with Taiko?
Currently it depends on whether the mapset is ranked or approved.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos

lepidopodus wrote:

I don't any intention to force that, for now, though, as I previously said. If the mapper wants Oni & Inner Oni even if others said much about difficulty spread, let him/her do it.
The problem is that many people don't play taiko because the only easy taiko maps are unranked/graveyarded and can only be found in offsite downloads (like your skydrive). If we make it so a difficulty spread is required or atleast suggested, there will be SOME newer taiko diffs that new players can try.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
@Mithost:
We shouldn't force mappers to do that now, we are not even enough mappers for this "rule".
If you look at the rank-list, you will quickly noticed that a project with at least two taiko diffs is getting rarely ranked. So there is no use of such a rule yet.

To mention this as a guideline; that it is prefered to have a diff spread with an easy and hard taiko is okay, but no forcing please.

Also, we are able to change this without rules for now: t/85700/start=0
Such projects can be productive when they are getting more support(I wasn't able to be active there yet 'cause of the exams).

Well, as nice as this idea is... as long we have not more mapper who map more then 2 maps at least or are willed to make an easier diff. then the predecessor diff., the rules has no use yet.

So I'm for this description as guideline:
If you want to have more than one Taiko specific diff., make sure you have a decent spread. If you have two Taiko diffs, try to have one Taiko Oni and one Taiko Futsuu/Muzukashii, for example. This will permit even Taiko Beginners to play your beatmap.
If no one has something agains this description of this guideline, we are able to approve it.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
Mithos
I went into this assuming it would be a guideline. It shouldn't be forced on anyone. I just think that if you make it a guideline, people will be a bit more willing to follow it. Now, we wait for someone who can change the guidelines to get on board :S
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
As I had proposed, we can use it for CtB maps too, as the problem is valid for CtB too (this'll be added in the general guidelines)
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
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