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posted
For simplicity, I'm going to post directly what I posted in the BN Discord:

Ascendance wrote:

Hello, friends!

I was looking at this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1855025 at CLSW's request and came across 00:57:311 (1) - this slider. After some deliberation, I felt that it was not fitting of this difficulty level, but it definitely fits the following two rules/guidelines

From Rain: "Basic hyperdashes can't be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher snapped hyperdashes are used, they must be used singularly (not in conjunction with other hyperdashes or dashes)"
From General: "Hyperdashes may only be used on drops and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement, as transitioning into and out of complex slider shapes with hyperdash is usually uncomfortable to play and a major penalty to accuracy for little benefit. Hyperdash on slider repetitions must not be used for more than two repeats, and such slider must not be used consecutively."

The slider is technically 4 basic hyperdashes within itself, so it can't technically break the rule, but it seems unsuitable at this difficulty. If it had been 4 1/2 sliders, it would be perfectly fine, for example, but the accuracy required for the current slider pattern may be beyond that of a rain player. I'd like to gather opinions since this is one of the first I've seen of something like this, and if necessary, we should be setting up an RC proposal to allow/disallow hyperdroplets on certain difficulties.

Thanks!
The current RC makes it so this is technically allowed, but from the opinions I've gathered so far from individuals, it is almost certainly inappropriate for the difficulty. The strain on accuracy could prove to be too much for a Rain player, and since it is not disallowed in Platters either, there is certainly an issue there.

My proposals are as follows:

Platter

Rules:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hyperdashes cannot be used on individual drops and/or slider repititions. The accuracy and control required is unreasonable at this level and can create a situation where the player potentially fails to read the sliderpath.
Rain

Guidelines:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hyperdashes should not be used on individual drops and/or slider repetitions. If used, the slider path must be simple and easy-to-follow and they can't exceed two consecutive uses for basic hyperdashes. Higher snapped hyperdashes within a slider are not allowed.
Overdose

Guidelines:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hyperdashes may only be used on drops and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement, as transitioning into and out of complex slider shapes with hyperdash is usually uncomfortable to play and a major penalty to accuracy for little benefit.
------

These proposals were drafted on a whim, so any rewriting is welcomed, but opinions mostly are really appreciated!
posted
Support this
posted
Personally, I believe that the hyperdroplets in this map are okay for the difficulty level. I feel as if it is not too difficult to understand/read the pattern for a rain player given the overall feel of the map.

Having hyper-droplets in rain difficulties is fine. Making hyper droplets unrankable in platter difficulties is something that I would agree on and should be enforced.
posted

chickenbible wrote:

Personally, I believe that the hyperdroplets in this map are okay for the difficulty level. I feel as if it is not too difficult to understand/read the pattern for a rain player given the overall feel of the map.

Having hyper-droplets in rain difficulties is fine. Making hyper droplets unrankable in platter difficulties is something that I would agree on and should be enforced.
Having hyperdroplets in rain diffs is fine but it can become a serious accuracy strain at this level. That's why it's a guideline and why they still can be used consecutively, just with the number halved (2 instead of 4). I think they have value as a pattern in rain diffs I'm just trying to make a clear bar as to when it goes too far within 1 slider
posted
Change the rule on odose to guideline since it kinda depends on excecution/introduction of concept since complex ones can be fair if used right imo. Rain is pretty understandable but I think people can go the extra mile on overdose (likely deluge) reasonably.


Everything else seems cool tho
posted

cyanine wrote:

Change the rule on odose to guideline since it kinda depends on excecution/introduction of concept since complex ones can be fair if used right imo. Rain is pretty understandable but I think people can go the extra mile on overdose in reasonable range.

Everything else seems cool tho



edit: did you mean drop as in slider-tick
oh right, yeah i'll move it to guideline (it's a guideline currently in the RC) also drop is the slidertick as defined by the RC so yes
posted
I support this.
posted
ok i guess
posted
overdose stuff
should make it clear that not having complex paths is only related to droplets and not drops. you can have complicated slider paths without droplets and there's no issue with that (eg chroma - i slider diff)

Hyperdash on slider repetitions must not be used for more than two repeats, and such slider must not be used consecutively
can i veto rc proposals because that's an extremely hard no from me
this rule would straight up ban patterns that are normally fine
eg https://puu.sh/CbaRB/60ee71da47.png
There is only one droplet, the hdashes are as small as possible, which leaves tonnes of room for error. it is no different than if there was no droplet.
What's worse is that at slightly higher bpm there are no droplets, which is now an unrankable pattern due to something completely unrelated.

some changes are needed to the wording, will revisit
posted

Sinnoh wrote:

overdose stuff
should make it clear that not having complex paths is only related to droplets and not drops. you can have complicated slider paths without droplets and there's no issue with that (eg chroma - i slider diff)

Hyperdash on slider repetitions must not be used for more than two repeats, and such slider must not be used consecutively
can i veto rc proposals because that's an extremely hard no from me
this rule would straight up ban patterns that are normally fine
eg https://puu.sh/CbaRB/60ee71da47.png
There is only one droplet, the hdashes are as small as possible, which leaves tonnes of room for error. it is no different than if there was no droplet.
What's worse is that at slightly higher bpm there are no droplets, which is now an unrankable pattern due to something completely unrelated.

some changes are needed to the wording, will revisit
I’d argue though that if there are no droplets there’s no reason not to make it just circles at that point. While yes, there would definitely be some clear cases where patterns are now unrankable, the guideline is meant to prevent widespread abuse. With patterns like the one you showed, it would be very easy to just split them up to keep it rankable at no cost.

@ overdose thing right now it’s just a copypaste of the current RC so I’m down to rewrite it if necessary
posted
Nice idea, would be cool if we had clear rules on this matter
posted
o wait @sinnoh I incorrectly copypasted from the rain to the overdose. When I was reading your point I thought that u were making it about the rain rule cause that’s what it was intended for. I removed the “...must not exceed 2” part from the overdose guidelines, hopefully that solves your concern
posted
ok seems like the error was fixed
should be fine
posted
Reworded some things and deleted some stuff to make the proposal neater overall
posted
HEY THIS IS NICE
i AGREE
posted


for real though: this proposal makes 100% sense to me
posted
Might be misinterpreting something here, but isn't it a little contradictory when a Rule states

"Hyperdashes may only be used on drops and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow."

but the guideline immediately following it states

"Hyperdashes should not be used on individual drops and/or slider repititions. (sic)" ?

What does "individual" refer to in this context, and how is this distinct from being "simple and easy to follow" in the Rule wording?


Additionally, it's probably better to avoid potentially weak language like "might not be able to" in Guidelines, which should be followed in all but exceptional cases. Something like "players are likely unable to", or "it is unreasonably difficult for players to".
posted

JBHyperion wrote:

Might be misinterpreting something here, but isn't it a little contradictory when a Rule states

"Hyperdashes may only be used on drops and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow."

but the guideline immediately following it states

"Hyperdashes should not be used on individual drops and/or slider repititions. (sic)" ?

What does "individual" refer to in this context, and how is this distinct from being "simple and easy to follow" in the Rule wording?


Additionally, it's probably better to avoid potentially weak language like "might not be able to" in Guidelines, which should be followed in all but exceptional cases. Something like "players are likely unable to", or "it is unreasonably difficult for players to".
Yeah so, I had no idea how to make that first one a MUST without putting it in rules. I can rewrite it if you feel like there's a better way to put it, since I didn't want to make the guideline proposal for rain 2 paragraphs long. Also @ language, yes I agree. When I gather some more opinions, I'll rewrite it in a revision.
posted
I thought the same thing JBH said. I think what you want to convey is (guideline) you shouldn't use this extensively, but you can, and (rule) if you do, the path must be simple. I think you can use a similar wording to that of the higher snapped HDashes followed by antiflow in Platters ("Higher snapped dashes should not be followed by antiflow patterns. If used, the movement after the dash must be walkable.")

You can put everything together within a single guideline with something like this:
Hyperdashes should not be used on individual drops and/or slider repetitions. If used, the slider path must be simple and easy-to-follow and they can't exceed two consecutive uses for basic hyperdashes. Higher snapped hyperdashes within a slider are not allowed.
posted
Will switch it to that then, thank you!
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