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Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines Discussion Thread

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Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Hi all! As CTB specific difficulties are now rankable, we can continue the discussion about Rules/Guidelines here.

These are the ones crafted by Shiirn (p/1345697)

Catch the Beat Rankability Rules and Guidelines

Rules

They may not be broken under any circumstance.
  1. You must avoid all current bugs within the hyperfruit system to keep your map passable. These will be gone over later on, below.
  1. Autoplay (salad!) must SS the map. Nevertheless, it doesn't show you what jumps are bugged/impossible to catch.
  1. Your map must theoretically be SSable. This generally means you must be able to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets. This ties in the previous point, but is fundamentally for different reasons.

Guidelines

They are important and should be followed in most maps. Nevertheless, they could be broken in special cases.
  1. Each CTB difficulty should be labelled according to its level of difficulty: Cup / Salad / Platter / Rain / Overdose, Deluge (in case there's a 2nd harder Extra diff). However, there's no need to add the acronym "CTB" since non-standard diffs have their own identification icon.
  1. The recommended Approach Rate for a catch the beat difficulty of "normal" difficulty (in accordance with Taiko, this is the "insane"-ish level of play, not an actual "normal") is AR8. AR9 can be used for faster paced songs as determined by the mapper, but AR10 should never be used for a below-superinsane level of play.
  1. Overall Difficulty should have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as OD does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the max score of a difficulty.
  1. Bear in mind that CtB difficulties are meant to be fun to play, not a random experimentation with the editor. Make sure your map is fun, even if it's difficult! This comes only with practice. This includes making sure you don't spam 20 hyperdashes in a row - that's not fun, that's exhausting and frustrating.
  1. Make sure your combos aren't too long! Bear in mind that sliders count as two fruits on Ryuuta's plate, and that you can't see new combos while in gameplay. A good, general baseline is a maximum of ten (10) fruit for a full combo. This is so that the fruit you catch doesn't block your view!
  1. Bearing the previous point in line, your spinners shouldn't be too long! Spinner fruits also "stack up".
  1. Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner. That'll make the notes near a spinner easier to read/sightread, helping the player to place the ryuuta in the correct position for the 1st note after a spinner.

Hyperfruit issues

Generally speaking, if you believe that your map might be impossible to clear, please consult a MAT or BAT or another experienced CtB player as to whether your map fits these bugs.
  1. In-slider jumps: This occurs when the horizontal slider velocity is so high that Ryuuta cannot catch both sides without a hyperfruit, yet the slider is long enough that a droplet appears. Droplets cannot become hyperfruits, and mess with the coding such that no hyperfruits appear. The borderline for this bug seems to be a horizontal velocity of 600BPM (Your map's BPM * Your Slider Velocity, directly horizontal), so beware using overall velocities over 400bpm!
Last edited by Deif , edited 12 times in total.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Change log:

Jan 15th, 2013:
  1. Removed paragraph about pixel jumps.
Nov 12th, 2012:
  1. Added a video in the pixel jumps section.
Sep 30th, 2012:
  1. Converted labelling rule as a guideline.
Sep 25th, 2012:
  1. Moved "1/2 distance note-spinner" rule to guidelines. Slightly rewritten due to recent spinner update.
  2. Added "OD = AR" guideline.
  3. Removed Max Score rule.
May 10th, 2012:
  1. Standardized CTB specific names.
April 15th, 2012:
  1. Modified spinner rule.
April 13th, 2012:
  1. Thread created.
  2. Grouped all the rules.
  3. Added rule: Autoplay.
Last edited by Deif , edited 12 times in total.
XEPCOH
529 posts
Joined February 2011
XEPCOH
Nice, Deif:3
There are much less CTB maps than taiko because most of CTB mappers are freaks and make non-FCable beatmaps.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
To do a ctb diff which is able to became rankable is not easy, but with time and experiance it will become more easier and faster. And of course maybe the standard mappers will start to search ctb diffs too for his or her own maps, now they are just accept the taiko diffs. ._.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Your map must theoretically be SSable. This generally means you must be able to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets. This ties in the previous point, but is fundamentally for different reasons.

As Zelos said before, the ryuuta's plate must catch all the fruit, and no fruit must be in off-screen, this is unrankable.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Auto make a good deal sometimes too, a map which is not FCable by Auto, isn't FCable by Players.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The first 3 rules are already covered by the general rules so they're redundant, any possible CTB Skinning issues should be brought up as a general rule because they affect the whole mapset (incl. regular diffs played on CTB) not just the CTB-specific diff, the rest looks fine to me Keep going! o/
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Auto make a good deal sometimes too, a map which is not FCable by Auto, isn't FCable by Players.
No. Autoplay don't have speed limitation in movements... The result is : Hyperfruits issues are allways catched by autoplay and never by human, and even someone catch it one random day on one random play doesn't mean it's rankable, we don't want to see maps with 1ms reaction time jumps.

And if the autoplay miss, we don't need it to see if the map is FCable : In other words, when a fruit is uncatchable by autoplay you don't need to try with it, it's way too obvious (fruits on same ticks with huge spacing for example)
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Added a rule about Autoplay to complete the SSability of a map, and another one about skinning discussed in previous threads.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
*facepalms* that's not what i meant, if you're going to make CTB rules/guidelines make them strictly based off the positioning of hit objects in CTB-specific maps, oh and score is fine too.

Any other rules will affect the entire mapset, why? let's make an example.

I make a mapset with only standard diffs and create a custom ryuuta for it without a flat plate, does the CTB rules affect it? no because there arent any CTB specific difficulties in the mapset, if you want it to affect it, it must be a general rule with it's own thread.

Edit: way better now
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

Sakura Hana wrote:

*facepalms* that's not what i meant, if you're going to make CTB rules/guidelines make them strictly based off the positioning of hit objects in CTB-specific maps, oh and score is fine too.

Any other rules will affect the entire mapset, why? let's make an example.

I make a mapset with only standard diffs and create a custom ryuuta for it without a flat plate, does the CTB rules affect it? no because there arent any CTB specific difficulties in the mapset, if you want it to affect it, it must be a general rule with it's own thread.
Ok ok, updated OP post. Any other general rule (which affects the whole mapset) will be discussed in its own thread.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
No notes maybe placed closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable). This is because fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together.
largely depend on how fast the fruits descend and how many fruits the spinner contains, there are situations that a 1/4 can appear distinguishable and situations a 2/1 is indistinguishable from other fruits. A more general rule would maybe ban less cases, and favorite playable cases, you will ban unplayable cases supported by the current wording too.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
^@ Maybe create a guideline instead which contains the sentences of "avoid using" and "try to"
Because this would include special cases but implies that many-fruit-spinners with barely readable true-fruits right after them are almost not readable (only if you know it inbefore).

Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

Loctav wrote:

Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together.
Sounds nice, but added as a rule, as it's an important factor to take into account for the readability of a map.

There are still some stuff to discuss about, like: how should the difficulties be named?

"XXX's CTB", "XXX's CtB", "XXX's CTB Insane/Hard/...", and so on
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
We could mix some with Touhou ones
Lunatic = Fruitnatic
Insane = Veggiesane maybe bad xD
or so.
It would be nice to have creative CtB diff. names/puns but if we don't come up with something cool we should stay with CtB hard/insane/easy

EDIT: I don't know if EZ2CATCH has own diff. names?
Maybe we could use them like Taiko does with TnT
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Well the discution on this thread ended with :

A guest mapper's name must be credited either in the difficulty name or in the first post of the map thread. Any difficulty name the mapper can be recognized by is fine. In addition, difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
Even if I like the idea of making some fresh new names I think we have to keep the CtB tag on the name to fit with this rule. And I think having a special diff name + CtB + mapper name if guest diff is a bit long, especially for multiplaying when you can't see the full diff name and you can't know if it's standard taiko or CtB :s
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
As far as I know, ez2dj doesn't have special diff names, they use Easy/Normal/Hard.

But if someone wants to name it "Whoever's Fruit Rain" (whyever) it's pretty obvious for what the diff is made for.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Drafura wrote:

Even if I like the idea of making some fresh new names I think we have to keep the CtB tag on the name to fit with this rule. And I think having a special diff name + CtB + mapper name if guest diff is a bit long, especially for multiplaying when you can't see the full diff name and you can't know if it's standard taiko or CtB :s
Well I think you are right.
But I think this won't happen so often, because most people who submitt guest diffs are using shortcuts for their names like
OnosakiHito = Ono.
If we make it to establish CtB diff. names then we wouldn't need CtB in the name either.
So you could say your case is the worst case scenario, which we should try to avoid.

Even though without special diff name you will have a long difficulty name too.
Drafura CtB's Insane
^ that would be still very long.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
I see your points, well if it's ok with the rule i've quoted, we need 5 diff names to keep a good diff spread I think :
Easy, Normal, hard, Insane and something for approval maps with high difficulty.

To fix the visibility of the name in multi we can invert diff name and guest mapper name : <Diff name>'s <Guest mapper name>
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
CtB Insane's Drafura? what?

Easy Normal, Hard, Insane, Extra/Another/Lunatic should be fine.

Ono's Taiko Inner Oni (21 signs) is still fully visible in Multi

So Drafura's CtB Insane (20 signs) is fully visible, too.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Loctav wrote:

CtB Insane's Drafura
Sorry I think I was very tired ok this is ridiculous xD

The diff name visibility depends on the map name lenght, some of them are extrem as you didn't even see the dif name on standard picks, that's why I tried to put the diff name before the guest name. example of map we can't tell if taiko or standard :



Sounds maybe better "CtB Insane by Drafura" (xD I was really sleepy)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
you can't tell if it's taiko or standard anyway until you click on it. The difficulty name 20% of the time has nothing to do with the map.

Be nice and put CTB somewhere.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom
Fresh Fruit, Fruit Sallad, Fruit Cake and Fruit Rain ...?

...I'm trying!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I already suggested 'Fruit Rain' indirectly >;
CLSW
osu! Alumni
2,182 posts
Joined October 2010
CLSW
If the diff's name fits at a song's source(like IIDX - Hyper, Another , pop'n - Hyper, EX), it can be used I think.

Originally EZ2CATCH hasn't its specific diff name(just like easy, normal, hard, and special skeleton marks at only 4 songs)

So I think it's for user's selection.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

Krisom wrote:

Fresh Fruit, Fruit Sallad, Fruit Cake and Fruit Rain ...?

...I'm trying!
Assuming most of us use the default skin? :P Fruit salad sounds nice though.

I can't think of any good difficulty names >_<
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
Or we could take a look on the CtB achievements
Fruit Salad
Fruit Platter
Fruit Overdose

have to say that Fruit Rain and Fresh Fruit are also nice :3


EDIT: After a little break i would say that Fruit Salad doesn't really fit for a diff. name. The other 2 and of course Fruit Rain and Fresh Fruit are cool in my eyes
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 3 times in total.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom

bomber34 wrote:

Fruit Salad
Fruit Platter
Fruit Overdose
I like those =o! I guess it's up to the guys deciding the rules if those would be good names or not =P
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Rain, Salad, Platter, Overdose for diff names (without the Fruit thing) sound good to me
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

Odaril wrote:

Rain, Salad, Platter, Overdose for diff names (without the Fruit thing) sound good to me
Yeah. If you change the skin you haven't got fruits anymore. xD
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Kael wrote:

Yeah. If you change the skin you haven't got fruits anymore. xD
But I guess that most CtB players know how the default skin looks like and that CtB is associated with fruits.

EDIT: My fault ... i was kinda stupid ^^ , sorry. It sucks to be not a native english speaking guy.
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 4 times in total.
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl
Yeah. But I agree with Odaril, for me it sounds better that way.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom

Odaril wrote:

Rain, Salad, Platter, Overdose for diff names (without the Fruit thing) sound good to me
Imo, Salad should be first, Platter second and Rain third. But I dunno ~

And I honestly think that it should still have the fruits somewhere.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
I agree.
I think it should be clear though that they are CtB diffs.

For example:
Someone does a weather themed map and wants to call a diff. rain and he wants that for approval (because you can name diffs. there whatever you want.)
When I learned something in life then that you have to be really obvious for everyone in most cases. (Nothing redundant though)
But to be honest, everything is better than stuff like
CtB Hard.
That is a bit blank.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
fruit cup
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Odaril wrote:

Rain, Salad, Platter, Overdose for diff names (without the Fruit thing) sound good to me
I think those are good. Well for the good points :
- It's short.
- It's CtB related.
- I think we have to keep this order for ENH, meaning salad = easy, platter=normal, overdose=hard:

Then add rain for Insanes, and maybe something like tornado for approval (this one really fits with AR10 mapping xD)
And maybe if one day peppy decide to add 2 000 000 000 fruit catching achievement rain could be used to name it ^^

For the bad points :
- A newbe can't tell if this diff is only for CtB or not even if he played CtB 2-3 times (with fruit in the diff name he could be smart enough to guess it).
- Maybe peppy won't use rain if he add a new achievement one day ^^'
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
I think it's better to add "Fruit Basket" as the Hard level (bigger than a platter, and smaller than an overdose lol).
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
is this really that disagreeable?
E:
N:
H:
I:
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
cup/bowl/platter/bin ziin
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I actually just googled the names.
cup - cups are small, can hold fruit
salad - normally comes in a serving bowl or small salad bowl
platter - this holds everyone's food at the table
overdose - those crazy thai will find anything to OD on.
rain - IMO if there needs to be a lunatic/extra/expert mode, nothing is more ridiculous than fruit rain. Diabetics can overdose on fruit easily, and cyanide is found in many seeds of fruits.

we should keep salad/platter/overdose in that order. Putting anything in between would be confusing. Is a basket bigger or smaller than a platter?
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Drafura wrote:

Then add rain for Insanes, and maybe something like tornado for approval (this one really fits with AR10 mapping xD)
And maybe if one day peppy decide to add 2 000 000 000 fruit catching achievement rain could be used to name it ^^

For the bad points :
- A newbe can't tell if this diff is only for CtB or not even if he played CtB 2-3 times (with fruit in the diff name he could be smart enough to guess it).
- Maybe peppy won't use rain if he add a new achievement one day ^^'
Tornado sounds cool for me but i guess that there are no real approval diff. names for standard either. People always choose cool phrases or something from touhou to just insane. IIRC Expert was for approval things, right?

To your bad points:
-A newbie couldn't tell a diff is for Taiko unless Taiko is in the name. Or in my case: I didn't even know what Taiko was so i was surprised like 2-4 times until i got that Taiko is another gameplay mode yes i was kinda silly back then.
After that it took me a long time to find out the order for Taiko diff names myself. But you will learn them quickly.

- I don't know what peppy will choose and if he don't choose rain he probably will take something creative to.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Since when peppy decides about that stuff?
Nevertheless, call it xx's CtB Salad/Cup/Platter/Rain/Overdose
(for me, overdose implies more to be an insane than Rain)
And Tornado sucks. Use Downpour or Deluge instead.
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

Loctav wrote:

And Tornado sucks. Use Downpour or Deluge instead.
Fruit Storm. Wuhiiiiiiiii! 8)
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

bomber34 wrote:

-A newbie couldn't tell a diff is for Taiko unless Taiko is in the name.
Many taiko diffs have "taiko" in the name.

Loctav wrote:

Nevertheless, call it xx's CtB Salad/Cup/Platter/Rain/Overdose
So maybe it's the best option here.

Loctav wrote:

And Tornado sucks. Use Downpour or Deluge instead.
I like Deluge :)
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
Let's wait for the 4th ctb achievement then
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom

Drafura wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Nevertheless, call it xx's CtB Salad/Cup/Platter/Rain/Overdose
So maybe it's the best option here.
I agree with this too (just with cup being the easiest nstead of sallad). Shouldn't people vote on these to make the names oficial? Y'know, to make things start moving.
halo398
halo398
well include a vote option u numbskull T-T
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

halo398 wrote:

well include a vote option u numbskull T-T
Why so impatient?

However, I cannot open a poll in this thread, though I am the one who posted the OP post, as you can see below.



I guess it has to be manually done.

EDIT: Also I agree with Krisom, Cup has to be an easier diff than Salad.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
You may ask a BAT/GMT if you can open a new thread on this sub-board with the topic "[Rule - Catch The Beat] Specific Difficulty Names Poll"
Dunno if polls are even allowed on this sub board (which would explain why you can't setup one)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Loctav wrote:

You may ask a BAT/GMT if you can open a new thread on this sub-board with the topic "[Rule - Catch The Beat] Specific Difficulty Names Poll"
Dunno if polls are even allowed on this sub board (which would explain why you can't setup one)
Well imma see if i can *me tests* Maybe i can, what would be the poll question and options?.
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