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[New Guideline] Maps should be reasonably playable

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Topic Starter
TheVileOne
There's a lot more to cover here. I tried to fit it all in one guideline, but there is too much information on this subject. We could potentially use this thread to isolate the guidelines to making a playable beatmap rather than making a topic for each guideline, because I think there are more than a few guidelines still missing from the draft concerning this subject. (Don't think my submission below is absolute-I tried to get as many issues as I could into one guideline. If you think that it should be split into separate guidelines, mention that )

I think this needs to be a rule. MATs/BATs should be able to tell whether a map plays intuitive enough to be ranked. (I am reiterating what the MAT/BAT already does. They decide whether all the beatmaps play well enough to be ranked. I really don't see any valid flaws in this rule. My reasoning: If you don't agree with the opposite thing of what I'm saying, then these rules should apply. No map is made better by excessively overmapping it, and by overmap, I'm referring to the literal translation, which is mapping beats that aren't there excessively. If I'm misstating this, please tell me how I should amend it.)
Maps should be reasonably playable
All maps should play in an intuitive manner. Mappers should avoid excessively overmapping beats. Beatmaps should be designed for the song not the difficulty. Under certain cases overmapping can work (as long as it's intuitive), but excessive overmapping is strongly discouraged (for ranked maps). (Do not turn a slow song into a crazy intense song for example)

This is a guideline.
Difficulties should be consistent throughout Patterns in your map shouldn't vary in intensity. Easy difficulties should have an easy to follow pace and contain easy patterns, and a Normal should be moderately more challenging than an easy difficulty. The same goes for each difficulty with few exceptions.

This is a slightly less important guideline
Difficulty settings shouldn't be so high or low that the map becomes awkward to play. A good tip is to choose settings that make the patterns most readable, but still give a reasonable window to actually hit whatever crazy pattern the song has and fits the difficulty.


Changelog

Removed clause about jump spaming, because I think it's not as important and much more acceptable than overmapping.
Added more specifications on overmapping
Split the main points of my post into separate guidelines.
Added a clarification that rankability for overmapping and suggested that it be a rule instead


Current Topic Issue

What is considered overmapped? Is it negative? Should it be controlled? If so, how?
eldnl
The beast players needs hard difficulties !
lolcubes
This is too subjective. High skilled players will not have any problems with anything. I know this isn't aimed towards them, but this is just an example of how subjective this is.
Avoiding overmapping for no reason is common sense and is already caught in the modding process, so this guideline is sort of redundant. Diff spread rule covers the rest too (which means eveyone should have a map which fits them, most of the time).
Topic Starter
TheVileOne
What? I'm just reiterating how people determine what is too crazy for ranking or not too crazy. It's not written down, but this is practically it. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm saying you should avoid it, unless you are saying we should encourage overmapping. I really don't think we should.

The people who map pro diffs know what they are doing. The people who do not, shouldn't try to needlessly overmap things period. If there is not a beat there, why make one?

It is the main reason some patterns are shot down by modders/MATs/BATs. This pattern is unreadable. (Really I think you're taking my rule too as a matter of factly- I took probably 3-4 guidelines and tried to fit them as a single guideline. I could break this down as well as include more values that MATs/BATs check for to ensure a map is ready to be ranked. Because we can't tell them to fix what's not written in the guidelines)

If you want to help this guideline, actually help me rephrase it in a way that complements everyone, because right now your view says every pattern regardless of readability is allowed in ranked difficulties. Oh BTW that's for every easy, and normal difficulty too. Because there's no guidelines for having a hard criteria element in a Normal or and easy.

Have fun trying to convince me when I say that there is nothing that says I can't have a jump in an easy. It's not in the guidelines, and you shot down my attempt at adding such things to the guidelines. I think such an opinion kind of defeats the spirit of maintaining difficulty.
Sakura

TheVileOne wrote:

Have fun trying to convince me when I say that there is nothing that says I can't have a jump in an easy.
If you're going to act like that then i would say have fun trying to get said map ranked
Mismagius
Just reminding that overmapping is a COMPLETELY different thing than "making a map harder than it should be".
Topic Starter
TheVileOne

Blue Dragon wrote:

Just reminding that overmapping is a COMPLETELY different thing than "making a map harder than it should be".
I don't completely agree. Actually you're right, overmapping doesn't always make the map excessively hard

Lets look at the word "overmapping". We got the word over, which in this definition it's defined as excessive, or beyond what's necessary and we got "mapping" which refers to the beatmap's note spread. I don't know what you get when you put the two words together, but I get "excessive mapping of notes" as the definition of overmapping.

Do you think it should be a separate guideline? It could be used for excessive overmapping instead. Excessive overmapping should be a rule actually.

Okay.

What do you think the definition of excessively hard should be?

This is a major issue. What is considered too hard to be ranked? Can we phrase a guideline/rule that can cover all of the elements that woul,d make a map unrankable due to difficulty, either from lack of readability, huge unnecessary jumps, or lack of sensible spacing? What is reasonably playable? Why aren't TAG difficulties allowed? What makes those maps too difficult for a single player to beat? What if they were called anything other than TAG? What part of their design makes them unrankable?(unapprovable for that matter)
Sakura

TheVileOne wrote:

So what is everyone's definition of overmapping?
Mapping to silence / putting notes when there's no sound accopanying it on the song (like for instance when there's a single sound or 2 1/2 sounds putting a 1/4 triple)
YodaSnipe
Does this guideline include the big bad? if so, YES. if not, idc.
Topic Starter
TheVileOne
^ I'm not sure what you mean.

I hope I made my concerns clear. I'm not trying to prevent the maps currently being ranked. I'm only trying to put into words what MATs/BATs mention as reasons not to bubble/rank a map. There is such a thing as too hard to rank, even though the skill level of osu players has skyrocketed. But what is too hard to rank? Can we just have a song that's one giant 1/4th stream without breaks with huge ridiculous jumps at the end of each stream and as long as it doesn't reach the max score it would be allowed?
Sakura
There's a thing called common sense
Shiirn
You don't have it, sakura, so don't start.


This entire thread will go nowhere - Map difficulty has nothing to do with playability. Arguing is useless since any maps that are suitably "omg so hard" will likely go through modding and stuff anyway, where it will be brought up and addressed. If the map's not going for ranking, who are you to say it shouldn't exist? Have a little faith in the modding system.
ziin

lolcubes wrote:

This is too subjective.
I was going to say this as soon as it was posted.

We don't need new guidelines, especially ones that are so complicated that to make them not vague in their description you need to write a paragraph. MATs/BATs generally tell why they won't rank/bubble something in the particular thread. We don't need guidelines for that. There's a difference between being unrankable, and not comfortable with ranking. Gray areas can be covered on a case by case basis.

Maps should be reasonably playable
All maps should also play in an intuitive manner. Mappers should avoid excessively overmapping beats. Beatmaps should be designed for the song not the difficulty. Under certain cases overmapping can work (as long as it's intuitive), but excessive overmapping is strongly discouraged. (Do not turn a slow song into a crazy intense song for example)
What is intuitive? What is overmapping? Why is overmapping bad? I have my own opinions on the matter which vary greatly from a large number of people on osu. Don't force my opinions on others when it's clear they are opinions and enough people do not share those opinions. Maps have to be reasonably playable is fine as a guideline, but it is also an unspoken guideline. I believe we already have a rule on "must be theoretically FCable". If we don't, it's common sense, and doesn't need a guideline.

Difficulties should be consistent throughout Patterns in your map shouldn't vary in intensity. Easy difficulties should have an easy to follow pace and contain easy patterns, and a Normal should be moderately more challenging than an easy difficulty. The same goes for each difficulty with few exceptions.
No thanks. If I want to make one section hard and another easy, that's my prerogative. It can be looked down upon (which it generally is by modders) but this is stupid.

Difficulty settings shouldn't be so high or low that the map becomes awkward to play. A good tip is to choose settings that make the patterns most readable, but still give a reasonable window to actually hit whatever crazy pattern the song has and fits the difficulty.
Eggpain is not unrankable. Certainly it makes the game harder to play, but seriously, OD 10 is not that harsh (40 ms is huge when compared to other rhythm games). CS 7 is almost never used, and will be replaced by cs2 at some point. CS 6 is hard, but not impossible. OD has to be tweaked to be reasonably passable, but doesn't necessarily have to be. Just look at "hey now" or "owens".
Topic Starter
TheVileOne
Edit: I didn't get to your post ziin

I didn't say it shouldn't exist.... Why is everyone on my case? When did difficulty not matter? It used to be a huge issue in the community, now I'm being practically flamed for just trying to clarify things. Did I miss the bus when it came to this conversation? Shiirn are you going to tell me to read some conversation that made everyone agree that readability and difficulty didn't matter anymore? Maybe I'm old-fashioned but seriously I'm only stating simple things that people should keep in mind when making their maps. Trust me greenpoint0 learned the hardway that overmapping shit doesn't work, and there have been SHD maps in the past which were just omg spam 1/4th streams for the entire song without reason. Look for yourself http://osu.ppy.sh/s/16412 and http://osu.ppy.sh/b/57052&m=0 and this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11487 (Is that now rankable?)

Tell me right off, if it's technically possible to beat, should I just not tell them that it's too crazy and their attempts for ranking for a particular map is completely unrealistic?

I could make a proof of concept map if you want. I'll follow every written guideline and include a map that's so ridiculously hard for the final diff, and then I'll make my argument that's it's rankable, because according to everyone it is. Perhaps I should use a ridiculously small distance snap for it too, so you wouldn't be able to identify 1/2th notes from 1/4th notes. There's nothing saying that a ranked map can't have that. There's no readability issues at all with that. The old 2008 map spacings would be very nice. I mean why would I want any better in a ranked map. DJPop is a well known mapper, and he used those spacings, why shouldn't I? I don't see anything saying that doesn't play well.

If anyone says differently, it's not in the guidelines or the rules, or the ranking criteria about this. Why should I listen to feedback if it's not against the rules?

Don't be ignorant with me. I know what I'm talking about, my experiences may be a bit dated, but there is nothing MAT/BATs are falling back on in their decisions. N-O-T-H-I-N-G There is no such written(important word) rule/guideline that says that mappers can't just use anything they want as settings. If they were stubborn like I would be with my example- they couldn't back their defense for removal or toning down such elements with anything, because it's all unwritten and in their heads- as good as their opinion. In their opinion it shouldn't be ranked until this is done. Well why do they have this opinion, erm, ehm... uhhh....

Modders need to have accountability as well. We need to back up our reasons for people to change things. We need mapping guidelines as well as every other guidelines...

If I haven't gotten through the dense egos that have appeared on this thread.

Take this:

Modder: This is overmapped, you should change it.
Mapper: I mapped it like that to make it more difficult. If I change it, it wont be challenging enough.
Modder: It doesn't play well to the beat. You should just remove some notes.
Mapper: No. I like it this way. I think I'll keep it.

Communication was not made. The mapper did not trust the modder's opinion enough to reconcile removing notes from his beatmap. How many modders would it take to get this point through this mapper's head? How many would it take if there was an official(another important word) guideline stating exactly the modder's opinion about this.

I guess my opinion and knowledge of stubborn (being quite stubborn myself) wouldn't know anything about this myself. Back in the day I could deny many more than 10 people's requests to change something. I'm still quite stubborn about things. I might even refuse to change something that a BAT tells me I should change. I wouldn't know what myself and people I've had to deal with in the past have done. Oh no... Sakura you of all people know how I am/was.

New question: How do you get a person who's stubborn to make changes to his map? Think of it from the everyday modder's perspective.
Sakura
There used to be a rule that all maps have to be sightreadable on the first try but it was removed.

The situation you described is the same situation most new mappers tend to get frustrated on because they become stubborn with their maps and don't fix what needs to be fixed, we don't need a guideline/rule for every single mistake that can happen in a map since most of them depend on the maps themselves and the songs, and even the mapper's intention with the map, if the mapper's intention is clearly to confuse players then it won't get ranked.
We would end up with a ton of guidelines and rules related to this and they would just make every map feel the same, and that's not what we want, since each person has their own mapping style, last but not least, common sense states that this is a rythm game and maps should follow the rythm of the song so it can be played according to the song's rythm, take for instance if the song has a constant 1/2 rythm through a certain section then you can pretty much place notes all in 1/2 and put some unique patterns with jumps and everyone will know when to hit them because they're all 1/2 (ztrot spacing rings a bell?).

Is it too hard to just listen to the song...
</rant>
Shiirn

TheVileOne wrote:

New question: How do you get a person who's stubborn to make changes to his map? Think of it from the everyday modder's perspective.
You, as the modder, cannot. If you can't, oh well, that's the mapper's fault for not agreeing with you (how dare s/he!).

If you're a MAT/BAT, then you've been given the ability to deny these mappers. Alas, you are not one, so I don't see why you need to worry about it.
HakuNoKaemi
Well, "reasonably" change too much between us all players,modders and mappers... so I don't see any reason too add subjective-interpretable guidelines
D33d
There's no point in trying to set anything in stone in regards to what is intuitive, because experienced people have been conditioned to certain quirks and outright fallacies in maps--I'm talking about ridiculous spacing changes, horrendous clusterfucks and other things which are a nightmare to read, but are justified by "you should read maps by their hitcircles only." It startles me that blatant sloppiness is allowed in a lot of maps and I'm not just talking about presentation.

I could go on and on and on about what I dislike about current mapping standards, but it would be absolutely pointless. All I can say is that I don't find a lot of maps to be very sensible, but I find that what passes for ranking stretches the meaning of the word more with every week that passes. For example, what are considered to be acceptable jumps are becoming more and more dramatic and inconsistent and I really don't think that certain maps give much of an indication of rhythm and fluency at all.

Also, Shiirn: It's reasonable to be annoyed at stubborn mappers, because if a mapper ignores/outright denies a normal user's suggestions and then makes similar changes based on a MAT or BAT's feedback, then it shows a flagrant disrespect towards sensible suggestions and people in general, unless they have an authority tag. When I see stubborn mappers yield only when their map can't be bubbled or ranked, I lose a lot of respect for them. As a further note, there is a difference between trying to get a second opinion and sucking up to higher-ups just to get something ranked.
Hanyuu
[New Guideline] Maps should be reasonably playable
I agree with that. The map should should follow the song and a mapper shouldnt spam 1/4 triple stacks all over the map just for the reason that it feels fun to move your fingers that way/because of hitsounds/to increase difficulty in a horrible way.
Well those maps are still getting ranked one after another and if you play without hitsounds for a while you will notice how many bad beatmaps there actually are (99% of them with a star rating over 9).

On the other side a very complex song should never be needed to get easier because of a rule like that. If it is hard then it is hard as long as it all got a certain note pattern and is justified by the song and nothing else.
Well it should not be overmapped aswell, like 10 beat long streams for example while there are actually more audible patterns during that. Add bad hitsounds and/or non-existing hitsounds to that aswell, makes it just perfect.

But after all some people enjoy playing such things so...
Also the game's idea i think is that everyone has their oppurtunity to create a beatmap just for the fun and enjoyment of themselves and others and if there are no "errors" in it, it should be approved no matter what.
None can tell you your map is not approvable just because someone thinks it plays not right while it is 100% technically correct. Well at least i think so.
And thats why i disagree after all with your idea allthough i can understand your point with this.

Difficulty settings shouldn't be so high or low that the map becomes awkward to play. A good tip is to choose settings that make the patterns most readable, but still give a reasonable window to actually hit whatever crazy pattern the song has and fits the difficulty.
Completely disagree because that is just subjective.
lolcubes

TheVileOne wrote:

I could make a proof of concept map if you want. I'll follow every written guideline and include a map that's so ridiculously hard for the final diff, and then I'll make my argument that's it's rankable, because according to everyone it is.
Do it. However make a valid argument, rather than just an argument. I think the map could be quite fun too.

TheVileOne wrote:

Perhaps I should use a ridiculously small distance snap for it too, so you wouldn't be able to identify 1/2th notes from 1/4th notes. There's nothing saying that a ranked map can't have that. There's no readability issues at all with that.
This won't pass probably, such things would get picked up in the modding process. It doesn't say it's allowed either, so that argument is invalid. Keep in mind that common sense still applies, and if it does fit the song a player will be able to identify them anyway. Also I don't think you can say that there are no readability issues when you claim that you will make it so the player won't be able to identify them, you're contradicting yourself.

TheVileOne wrote:

The old 2008 map spacings would be very nice. I mean why would I want any better in a ranked map. DJPop is a well known mapper, and he used those spacings, why shouldn't I? I don't see anything saying that doesn't play well.
Don't blame or use as an example a well known mapper who has tons of old maps which are considered bad today. It doesn't matter what happened in the past, it's 2012 now and things are different. Besides, his latest maps are quite okay, and that's an opinion, not a fact.

TheVileOne wrote:

If anyone says differently, it's not in the guidelines or the rules, or the ranking criteria about this. Why should I listen to feedback if it's not against the rules?
You don't have to. Just don't expect the BAT who mods it to approve of it, if it's really that bad.

TheVileOne wrote:

Don't be ignorant with me. I know what I'm talking about, my experiences may be a bit dated, but there is nothing MAT/BATs are falling back on in their decisions. N-O-T-H-I-N-G There is no such written(important word) rule/guideline that says that mappers can't just use anything they want as settings. If they were stubborn like I would be with my example- they couldn't back their defense for removal or toning down such elements with anything, because it's all unwritten and in their heads- as good as their opinion. In their opinion it shouldn't be ranked until this is done. Well why do they have this opinion, erm, ehm... uhhh....
Blaming people won't change things, helping people will. Making a redundant guideline does not help, in fact it only makes us spend more time discussing why is it redundant, when we could have spent that time discussing some other rule. You're blindly following what's written instead of using your own head and thinking why you should or shouldn't be doing something.
If you insist on being stubborn about something without proper arguments ("because I want it that way" is not a proper argument, you need to back it up with something why you want it that way), then you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own, because you're getting nowhere. I consider myself quite stubborn too, but when someone gives me valid arguments why should I change something, I consider them and change it, atleast in a way that I still keep stuff I want, but the person complaining gets what he wants too.

TheVileOne wrote:

We need to back up our reasons for people to change things. We need mapping guidelines as well as every other guidelines...
I agree with this 100% (with the backing up our reasons), and you can do that in your mod post. If you bring up valid arguments, in most cases stuff will change. I understand that when I write something people will most likely change it because my name is red, but you would be surprised how well this works even if it's not. If stuff doesn't get changed, well unfortunately you can't do much about it, neither can I.

TheVileOne wrote:

If I haven't gotten through the dense egos that have appeared on this thread.
I won't comment on this. Please, quote my previous post and tell me where I'm wrong, if you want a civil discussion that is. If you keep talking like this, this discussion will get nowhere and I will just nuke this and lock the thread.

TheVileOne wrote:

Take this:

Modder: This is overmapped, you should change it.
Mapper: I mapped it like that to make it more difficult. If I change it, it wont be challenging enough.
Modder: It doesn't play well to the beat. You should just remove some notes.
Mapper: No. I like it this way. I think I'll keep it.
This is a very bad example, also a very vague one. "It doesn't play well" is too subjective. You need to exactly state why it doesn't play well and give a suggestion what plays better. That's the right thing to do. Some people will always be stubborn and you can't change that.

TheVileOne wrote:

Communication was not made. The mapper did not trust the modder's opinion enough to reconcile removing notes from his beatmap. How many modders would it take to get this point through this mapper's head? How many would it take if there was an official(another important word) guideline stating exactly the modder's opinion about this.
You ask for a change, mapper denies you. That's communication. I don't know what you're saying here, but you can't make other people's maps your own. You should map your own map instead. Maybe a bit harsh answer, but I find this quite true.

TheVileOne wrote:

New question: How do you get a person who's stubborn to make changes to his map? Think of it from the everyday modder's perspective.
You present valid arguments backed up with reasons and provide appropriate suggestions (multiple if possible) about a certain thing that bothers you. There is no better way.

Long post, but try to keep everything objective in the thread. Don't take this post as a personal vendetta against you, but you shouldn't be bringing so many opinions without backing them up with specific things and reasons into the discussion, to the point of assigning blame to someone. Noone forces you to "help" people, helping people should be a reward in itself, you don't really need one after helping people (atleast that's how I see this discussion, you trying to "help" and other people, including me, telling you that you're doing it wrong, which you take it as slap in the face, instead of thinking how to change your way of thinking so it actually helps).

Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but really, try to see things from a different perspective.

edit:

TheVileOne wrote:

Have fun trying to convince me when I say that there is nothing that says I can't have a jump in an easy. It's not in the guidelines, and you shot down my attempt at adding such things to the guidelines. I think such an opinion kind of defeats the spirit of maintaining difficulty.
Yeah, that attitude won't help anyone. If you keep saying stuff like this, not many people will take you seriously.
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