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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks

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TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Edit: Here is my current version. Please consider this instead. I have included a way to make this enforceable as a guideline and will allow less extreme overlap cases to be allowable.

[Guideline] You should avoid partially or fully obscuring a hitcircle under a slider-track in easier difficulties, because the hitcircle will always be obscured until the slider has run it's course, making for hard to read, and ugly situations. Any exceptions must have a clear and logical path, that is not obscured by any hitburst.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Good as a guideline now
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Agreeing, other people can control it?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Original:
Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

mm201:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.

First guideline addresses stacking slider ends in normal/easy, where it is pretty much universally accepted. Second guideline makes sure that overlaps are not complete overlaps if possible, but anyone with a brain can understand that stacked objects do not count, and haku's examples are fine depending on the difficulty.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
continuing?
Slider-end stacks are completely playable in less than 2 days, or even while they start. I can see you can discourage MASS stacking in EASY, not in NORMAL, (MASS Stacking).
Universally accepted? even peoples that plays from a few days say they're easy-to-learn ( the only prerequisite is knowing "osu! IS a Rhythmn game" )
(And guideline is a serious overkill, as the sliderend-stack learning time is completely subjective (vary from person to person )

Avoid placing to many objects near one place? But even: if there will be too many objects in the same place the AR will take care of it and make it playable. More extreme cases are too ugly, rarely used and every-time discouraged by modders.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
HD isn't about memorization, FL IS, HD need a good path reading capacity and is more based around you knowing when to hit.

Plus the AR unexpectedly help when too many objects are stacked around the same point, so... yeah the 2nd guideline is to delete
The 1st guideline is actually not generally accepted. You can actually use stacking in Normal freely ( Normal player have played for some days ), Easy players/Beginners have different learning rates, but they easily learn how to play sliderend stacking, and if they can't play them, they usually can't play easies well because they almost started. Deleting seems a good idea.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Drafura wrote:

HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
If HD was about memorization i wouldn't be able to FC maps with HD on first try.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Sakura Hana wrote:

Drafura wrote:

HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
If HD was about memorization i wouldn't be able to FC maps with HD on first try.
You have some maps wich requires a bit memorization. Don't extend my words to a general view. Of course this isn't like FL but sometimes it's easier to FC HD memorizing some hidden circles. I mean in this mod this is the only hard thing, well some jumpy patterns with only circles could be a bit hard but I don't think this is the hardest stuff for a HD player.

If you take a look to tops, the maps with those hidden circles are the one wich aren't full of HD top40. That's why i said memory is a part of HD skill. But of course HD is also about accu skill (no approach circles) and other...

I was just pointing that /me leaves
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
HD need pre-pathreading. Means you should see when circles appear, not that you won't do it while playing without HD, and you can use your intuition to know when to click.
animez15
122 posts
Joined April 2012
animez15
agreed! it must be on right direction...eventhough some of it used it...just minimized on using,,,
emergist
106 posts
Joined April 2011
emergist
It's almost been OT...
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
My bad, sorry about this :s
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
Drafura take this from an HD player, it is not about memorization. What makes HD worthy of being a mod is the difficulty in snapping to/aiming at each note. I could give you a few examples of maps like this if you'd like to try and prove me wrong.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
HD is all about memorization when hitcircles are underneath other objects, though I guess that wasn't what you were talking about. I usually have to memorize those notes on standard.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
No, I agree with Yoda. Hidden makes jumps much more difficult. I guess it goes back to the "eyes on the prize" thing in how aiming jumps is easier when you can see the target.
Memorization does become a problem in poorly designed maps.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
mm201 read my mind and spat out the words <3

Edit: To add to mm201's poorly designed maps: If HD was about memorization, then it would be impossible to 1 shot DT HDs, and I have done so several times now. However, poorly designed maps... not so much.
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta
Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
Mercurial
Mercurial
Doesn't matter the circles stack on Insane diff, the great deal is on Easy/Normal diffs, where the beginner player might fail eventually.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Zetta wrote:

Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
It was discussed to be deleted directly, so I guess no one has cared about.

Ah, Stacking shall be permitted in easier diffs.

The player usually won't fail on clicking stacked note if he can complete a standard easy and he can quite play it as not being able to play it will mean the note is offbeat.
By the way the other reason is Are you sure to make stack be used from hard onward?, you really assign them that much difficulty?

Obviously, "Avoid covering objects with slidertracks or with a group of hitcircles in easier difficulties" shall be a good guideline.
Differently, "Avoid stacking on easier difficulties" is not.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

Zetta wrote:

Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
Except it doesn't.

A) it's a bad rule
B) it hasn't been replaced/fixed officially
C) the stacking, while stupid and idiotic, has fans for reasons beyond my capability of understanding
D) the stacking is done in a consistent, logical, and simple manner.
E) it's not stacking circles.
F) it's insane
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
After further discussion in #modhelp we've decided to leave this rule as is.
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