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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks

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mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
You mean this?
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.

Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Guideline 1 covers Normal and Easy. Can be a guideline, easily.
Guideline 2 covers all difficulties. Too vague to be a guideline, too easily broken.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Overlapping isn't vague at all. I could very easily write an aimod module that spots overlaps and categorizes them based on how severe they are.

#2 is also a catch-all for existing rules including hitburst coverage and unseeable slider tracks--things which there are currently RULES against. Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
downgrading a non-wanted heavy rule for most difficulties to a light recommendation for easier diffs is.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

mm201 wrote:

Overlapping isn't vague at all. I could very easily write an aimod module that spots overlaps and categorizes them based on how severe they are.
I see #2 as a guideline against tornado combos and stacking objects underneath slider ends, both of which are commonly used and should never be disallowed. If that is not the intention of the guideline, I need and example of what it disallows.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Tornados should be okay. Some clarification might be needed. I don't like going into too much detail because it tends to be off-putting, even if the phrasing is more tolerant.Stacks should be considered separately.

Thank you for being the first person to say anything constructive about this guideline.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

mm201 wrote:

Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
Depends. It has already been established that having stuff behind slider tracks is perfectly readable and ok to do in higher diffs, it's just that certain individuals dislike to have that. When it becomes unreadable, then it becomes a problem, however that is already caught in the modding process. While readability is subjective, clusterfucks are quite obvious and should be avoided anyway, if anything for cosmetic reasons.

Basically what everyone asked here was the rule to be abolished, and instead we're changing it into 2 parts, a guideline and a recommendation, and I see nothing wrong with it.

edit: will throw some examples in a bit.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
After-Spinner notes being covered by Spinner theirselves is another example. Antijumps are another example.
Still not constructive?
A better wording could maybe be better, but my idea is to make peoples AVOID using patterns like that randomly( they are good mostly and easy to link to music and graphic cues, as so, it's better to make it a recommendation)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Okay let's add a condition to the second one, "completely covered up for the majority of the object's lifetime, enough that a reasonable player would have a hard time noticing the existence of the object."

Those examples are fine and shouldn't be included in the guideline, and I never had any intention to include them.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Avoid covering objects with other objects too much especially in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Still proposing this as a Recommendation. Added "especially"
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
No. Covering gameplay elements in easier difficulties shouldn't be done at all, I thought we already came to a conclusion about that. Stacking =/= covering. The only exception I would throw here is having a back and forth pattern, and that would be limited to normal difficulties. Such patterns can be considered both stacking and covering, making it grey area.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
"Too much" is subjective. If one is considered a bad case that affects readability then it's an issue. Whether the mapper does it many times or just once, that's irrelevant, also covering objects with objects is too vague. It has to be sliders or hitbursts, because excessive stacks is very vague and should be treat very differently than the other cases Also it's "They can result in hard to see, "especially if overused" < redundant. Also stacks don't often result in hard to see cases.

I don't really think that should even be mentioned. Because it really depends on the song and how far the notes are apart. You couldn't even recommend it for every case. Keep that in mind that recommendations must be made according to all situations or most situations, and stacking anything on anything just doesn't apply in that way IMO.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Avoid covering objects with other objects many times, especially in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Still proposing this as a Recommendation. Added "especially"
that part is important, as stacking cued to mapping style (symmetry, pattern similiarity) or music is easier to spot.
A Recommendation can be vague, I'm just making one recommendation out of two guideline.

(anyway, corrected one part...)
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I'd rather have MM's version than that recommendation Haku...

But that's irrelevant IMO, because I think that this must be said in the rules.

You must never fully obscure a hitcircle under a slider-track in easier difficulties, because the hitcircle will always be obscured until the slider has run it's course, making for hard to read, and ugly situations.

This I think still needs to be a rule, because I can't think of a good reason to have a hitcircle/slider start at the direct middle of a slider track in a Normal. Why should we even allow it? The negatives outweigh the positives, and it would most certainly be a hard element.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
"easier difficulties" do means "normal" too. I would have said "Easy" only.

Well , modders will prevent something that probably have no sense from arriving to the version that'll be controlled by the MATs/BATs.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I had to rush this. It's unorganized. Skip over to my latest version of the guidelines.

SPOILER
Well yeah, but give me/us modders some slack. If it doesn't work in 99 percent of cases, why should us modders have to constantly tell people not to create bad overlaps because it's not against the rules. I mean us modders have to point out ugly overlaps all the time with this rule in place (although objects touching other objects isn't against the rules).

The main issue with this rule is that it's vague, and controversial. The reason it isn't enforcable is because it's these two things. If we adopt what I suggested above, it will give a clear standard that is considered unacceptable.

The rule covers only total obscure patterns, while the guideline would handle partial obscure patterns. I think this should be the correct way to go, because I've seen so many unappealing cases of notes touching other notes in unappealing ways.The modders manage to handle it, but there should be some standard where we can definitively say this isn't allowed. I say this for one very important reason. It will be the mappers who know what they are doing who will be violating the extreme grey areas of these issues, and those will be the hardest to convince to change their patterns, especially if the only reasoning is because it's too unreadable for x difficulty. People don't always change things for that reason.

Edit: Then again... perhaps there are some patterns that could work in a Normal. I may end up suggesting that this end up being a strong guideline. If they took my version instead of the existing one. Mine is clearer on the subject. But then again I'm not sure, it's all depending on the wording.

This is my issue with separating rules from guidelines. When we had everythin as criterias, they could be taken on a case by case basis. If it's a guideline, we can't right off say it's unrankable, because there are cases where it could be rankable. And there is noone other than MAT/BATs that could have the authority to say whether a broken guideline is/is not rankable.

So if we keep it strictly as a rule, then the bad overlaps will be definitively unrankable. But if it's overall playable, then few modders will even mention it. This is how it's always been. This new system will just mess things up.

I have a very large concern about it. There are some exceptions, but there's not enough of a difference between an unacceptable overlap and an acceptable one for most modders to say is rankable or unrankable. There needs to be some clause on unreadability that needs to be met for something to be rankable under this guideline.

We need an addition like : Any exceptions must have a clear, and logical path, that is not obscured by any hitburst.

Stacks should also be unrankable while obscured under a slider track.

I'll try to edit my version to cover more issues, but I don't think I have time right now.


Edit: I'll make one last note before someone tells me that is subjective. It needs to be!!! There is nothing wrong with saying "I think this is unrankable." NOTHING! It is in our opinion that this pattern violates a guideline/rule, regardless if it absolutely violates it. Some unrankable cases have to be on a case by case basis, and this is definitely one of those cases. It must be stated that subjective criteria must be met in order for this rule or guideline to be enforcable, otherwise it wont be for 98 percent of modders.

I may make a whole thread based off of subjectivity. Because it makes sense that all things subjective; that we are not adding to the rules, cannot be enforced by the modders, because we wont include subjective criteria in the rules/guidelines for it.
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 2 times in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
I said sometimes that something that need to be considered case-by-case isn't worth a rules many times actually-

Anyway we don't need to cater rules to modding

SPOILER

example of a normal usable pattern that will be banned by that if it'll be a guideline...

My whole point is limiting this to a recommendation at max, or even deleting it...
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Edit: Here is my current version. Please consider this instead. I have included a way to make this enforceable as a guideline and will allow less extreme overlap cases to be allowable.

[Guideline] You should avoid partially or fully obscuring a hitcircle under a slider-track in easier difficulties, because the hitcircle will always be obscured until the slider has run it's course, making for hard to read, and ugly situations. Any exceptions must have a clear and logical path, that is not obscured by any hitburst.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Good as a guideline now
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Agreeing, other people can control it?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Original:
Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

mm201:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.

First guideline addresses stacking slider ends in normal/easy, where it is pretty much universally accepted. Second guideline makes sure that overlaps are not complete overlaps if possible, but anyone with a brain can understand that stacked objects do not count, and haku's examples are fine depending on the difficulty.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
continuing?
Slider-end stacks are completely playable in less than 2 days, or even while they start. I can see you can discourage MASS stacking in EASY, not in NORMAL, (MASS Stacking).
Universally accepted? even peoples that plays from a few days say they're easy-to-learn ( the only prerequisite is knowing "osu! IS a Rhythmn game" )
(And guideline is a serious overkill, as the sliderend-stack learning time is completely subjective (vary from person to person )

Avoid placing to many objects near one place? But even: if there will be too many objects in the same place the AR will take care of it and make it playable. More extreme cases are too ugly, rarely used and every-time discouraged by modders.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
HD isn't about memorization, FL IS, HD need a good path reading capacity and is more based around you knowing when to hit.

Plus the AR unexpectedly help when too many objects are stacked around the same point, so... yeah the 2nd guideline is to delete
The 1st guideline is actually not generally accepted. You can actually use stacking in Normal freely ( Normal player have played for some days ), Easy players/Beginners have different learning rates, but they easily learn how to play sliderend stacking, and if they can't play them, they usually can't play easies well because they almost started. Deleting seems a good idea.
Sakura
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Sakura

Drafura wrote:

HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
If HD was about memorization i wouldn't be able to FC maps with HD on first try.
Drafura
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2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Sakura Hana wrote:

Drafura wrote:

HD is about memorization, but real HD players make "guessing" hits at some positions when they think an object coulb be hidden behind. I think this is a part of the player ability to play HD on standard.
If HD was about memorization i wouldn't be able to FC maps with HD on first try.
You have some maps wich requires a bit memorization. Don't extend my words to a general view. Of course this isn't like FL but sometimes it's easier to FC HD memorizing some hidden circles. I mean in this mod this is the only hard thing, well some jumpy patterns with only circles could be a bit hard but I don't think this is the hardest stuff for a HD player.

If you take a look to tops, the maps with those hidden circles are the one wich aren't full of HD top40. That's why i said memory is a part of HD skill. But of course HD is also about accu skill (no approach circles) and other...

I was just pointing that /me leaves
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
HD need pre-pathreading. Means you should see when circles appear, not that you won't do it while playing without HD, and you can use your intuition to know when to click.
animez15
122 posts
Joined April 2012
animez15
agreed! it must be on right direction...eventhough some of it used it...just minimized on using,,,
emergist
106 posts
Joined April 2011
emergist
It's almost been OT...
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
My bad, sorry about this :s
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
Drafura take this from an HD player, it is not about memorization. What makes HD worthy of being a mod is the difficulty in snapping to/aiming at each note. I could give you a few examples of maps like this if you'd like to try and prove me wrong.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
HD is all about memorization when hitcircles are underneath other objects, though I guess that wasn't what you were talking about. I usually have to memorize those notes on standard.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
No, I agree with Yoda. Hidden makes jumps much more difficult. I guess it goes back to the "eyes on the prize" thing in how aiming jumps is easier when you can see the target.
Memorization does become a problem in poorly designed maps.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
mm201 read my mind and spat out the words <3

Edit: To add to mm201's poorly designed maps: If HD was about memorization, then it would be impossible to 1 shot DT HDs, and I have done so several times now. However, poorly designed maps... not so much.
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta
Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
Mercurial
Mercurial
Doesn't matter the circles stack on Insane diff, the great deal is on Easy/Normal diffs, where the beginner player might fail eventually.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Zetta wrote:

Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
It was discussed to be deleted directly, so I guess no one has cared about.

Ah, Stacking shall be permitted in easier diffs.

The player usually won't fail on clicking stacked note if he can complete a standard easy and he can quite play it as not being able to play it will mean the note is offbeat.
By the way the other reason is Are you sure to make stack be used from hard onward?, you really assign them that much difficulty?

Obviously, "Avoid covering objects with slidertracks or with a group of hitcircles in easier difficulties" shall be a good guideline.
Differently, "Avoid stacking on easier difficulties" is not.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

Zetta wrote:

Just wanna point out that the Insane difficulty of this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46574 breaks this rule every 2 seconds.

But no one cares because it's Mafiamaster weeeeeeeeee!
Except it doesn't.

A) it's a bad rule
B) it hasn't been replaced/fixed officially
C) the stacking, while stupid and idiotic, has fans for reasons beyond my capability of understanding
D) the stacking is done in a consistent, logical, and simple manner.
E) it's not stacking circles.
F) it's insane
Sakura
osu! Alumni
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Joined March 2010
Sakura
After further discussion in #modhelp we've decided to leave this rule as is.
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