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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks

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154
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

I can't comment on the previous discussion.

This is a bad rule, and should be moved to guidelines (remember guidelines are not meant to be broken under normal circumstances). The exception would be the difficulty of the map. Insane = anything goes. Hard = partially hidden (75%?) allowed. Normal/Easy = slight overlaps only.

I don't have a problem so long as the number is visible, but if this stays a rule, it needs to be concrete. We can be vague with guidelines.

Edit:
Proposal for a guideline:
Avoid hiding objects underneath sliders in non-insane difficulties. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Make sure the difficulty matches the frequency and magnitude of overlaps.

This should stop bad overlaps, especially in easy/normal. Any minor problems (like stacking a circle on a slider end on a 45 degree angle to the upper left) can be assessed during modding and experience.
Last edited by ziin , edited 2 times in total.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I'd agree to remove this altogether, actually. Hitcircles behind slidertracks aren't that confusing, really. And making a rule that basically says "ignore this rule for Insane diffs" is stupid.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
What about the HD players :(
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Playing HD requires a bit of memorization.
*goes back to his stacking example*
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I can read stacks on HD fine tho
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Ｗｅ　ｓｈｏｕｄｎ’ｔ　ｃａｔｅｒ　ｍａｐｐｉｎｇ　ｒｕｌｅｓ　ｔｏ　ｍｏｄｓ
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=64834

I had talked about slider-linked rules on that discussion... and yeah, even mm says that this rule make no sense (and to hidden players: you never see that and it is the same as stacking.)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

Garven wrote:

We shouldn't cater mapping rules to mods
We should keep mods in consideration whenever possible. They are viable ways to play osu, and count towards your ranked score. Since they are "ranked", and "ranked" maps are supposed to be of a certain quality, we must at least acknowledge them.

Hidden is more often than not the easiest mod. Fast maps are impossible to dt, since streaming at 300+ bpm is extremely rare for osu. Flashlight is all memorization, but significantly harder than hidden. Hard rock can be made impossible with high difficulty settings. Having maps that are abnormally difficult for hidden shouldn't be outright denied.

It's not that we shouldn't cater to mods, so we don't need this rule for hidden's sake. It's because it's still acceptable to have circles under sliders while playing hidden mod. It makes that mod more difficult than usual for that map, which is 100% fair, and makes the easiest mod a little bit harder.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I agree with moving this to guidelines and rewording that stacking on slider ends is ok and that all this should be avoided in easiest difficulties.(this can mean normal diff if its the easiest in the set)

Sakura Hana wrote:

What about the HD players :(
Actually, stacking under slider starts is close to no different than stacking under slidertracks. The only difference is you could expect the note to be "there" and you have a more accurate spot to click on, while if it's under a slidertrack you don't really have the exact visible spot you have to click, you just have to know it by heart. That's not good enough for "sightreading" anyway, because you aren't using it.

In closing, I don't think removing rule this alltogether is a good idea, changing it to guideline while being reworded to affect only easier diffs is much better because you can just point it out when someone does that, you don't need to write a wall of text explaining why is doing that bad.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
Speaking as an HD player, I have no problem with notes hidden under slidertracks or stacked. I think that notes under slidertracks are way more fun to play than notes stacked under sliderends.
L_P
1,370 posts
Joined July 2011
L_P

YodaSnipe wrote:

Speaking as an HD player, I have no problem with notes hidden under slidertracks or stacked. I think that notes under slidertracks are way more fun to play than notes stacked under sliderends.
a comment from a real hidden mod player would be helpful, so i think that this rule can move to guidelines. win win win

besides i would like to say while players have became fuckin pro, it is good to move some rules to guidelines.
this makes stuff more challenging..
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

L_P wrote:

besides i would like to say while players have became fuckin pro, it is good to move some rules to guidelines.
this makes stuff more challenging..
You misunderstand the point of the rules. The rules are not here to make people play bad, or restrict them in being better, they are here so we don't have problematic situations in the maps. Maps can be challenging and really fun even if they respect all of the rules.

Also hidden has nothing to do with this, as I mentioned before in my post, there is close to no difference between putting a note behind a slider track or a slider start, you still cannot see the note with hidden mod. That is why this is not a good rule and should be moved to guidelines while affecting lower diffs only, so they don't require advanced sightreading, meaning new people can play normally.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I'd agree more with removing this altogether. The only issues with notes under slidertracks are cosmetic issues, really.
Lunah
903 posts
Joined November 2011
Lunah
Beats hidden under slidertracks » Funny to play in HD.

I almost play only using hidden (It's like I prefer the hidden's fade than the approach circle lol) and I have to say that I have no problem playing these kind of beats, naturally depends by the player, btw I agree with Odaril removing this rule or switching it into a guideline.

as lolcubes wrote, should be marked as rule only for lower difficulties.


SPOILER
Using this point of think it's like I could write "You guys can't make a jumpy-map because of flashlight players", Hidden is an additional mod, the map should not be edited for make it playable for players that use hidden
L_P
1,370 posts
Joined July 2011
L_P
yeah i see stuffs growing in a good direction
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I never really like it when circles and slider starts are hidden under tracks, because I don't like relying entirely on approach circles and this sort of thing doesn't do much for a map's presentation. Because mmsliders are transparent, this sort of thing can be readable, but I find it to be needlessly awkward. I wouldn't complain if this rule was kept, because I don't see a reason against it. I could think of uncountable other ways to map than those which use do this.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
Different mappers have different mapping methods, if it's just because someone don't like a certain way, but not techniquely it will bring trouble to the players, there should never be a rule for that, even guideline makes little sense.

As for this one:
1. Some HD players seems to be fine with it (Yoda's post)
2. Even not, as what lolcubes said, it's in fact no much different with circles under sliders end.
3. In a scoreboard (highest diffs), there're usually less than 20 hidden scores if we check a hard map, and probably only 1 or 2 of them are first-time HD player, so should we really take this into account?

Conclution:
Just forbidden this one totally.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

NatsumeRin wrote:

Just forbidden this one totally.
Ignoring the misued word, that's what I've been proposing since my first post in this thread. <_<

I think it's pretty clear the community wants this rule removed. If I do remove it though, don't overuse circles under slidertracks.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
I still want it as a guideline or recommendation. You shouldn't be doing that shit in easy.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I wonder if we need a different set of guidelines for non-insane difficulties.
Mercurial
Mercurial
I don't complain about hidden hitcircles in a "Hard/Insane/Extra" Diff, but in Normal and easy diffs... Meh.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
No one in their right mind would do this in a Normal or an Easy... right ?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
people stack circles on slider ends in easy all the time.

I only have 2 problems with hiding circles:
1) I don't like to not know where the next note is when I play.
2) It adds difficulty which isn't accounted for in the star rating, and should be used sparingly or not at all in non-insane difficulties.

Having certain guidelines/recommendations for specific difficulties would be a good idea. EG don't use squiggly sliders in easy.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
recommendations, not guideline
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

ziin wrote:

people stack circles on slider ends in easy all the time.
Blind notes on Easy shouldn't be allowed in the first place.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Sakura Hana wrote:

ziin wrote:

people stack circles on slider ends in easy all the time.
Blind notes on Easy shouldn't be allowed in the first place.
Plenty of stacks in iNiS maps. The odd stack isn't bad if it follows obvious cues, but it's obviously something that shouldn't be overused.

As for removing this rule, if I catch people abusing the lack of it, then I will smash some skulls. Holy Hell, don't commit any more atrocities than there already are.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Stacks on slider ends are more difficult than other kinds of stacks because the slider end itself doesn't have an approach circle. That makes it harder to judge the timing.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually, nvm me i was thinking of a different situation, this is fine to get nuked or turned into a guideline.
Cygnus
1,517 posts
Joined December 2011
Cygnus
This actually depends on the Approach Rate.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

mm201 wrote:

the slider end itself doesn't have an approach circle.
since when did sliders not have slider balls?
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose

Shiirn wrote:

mm201 wrote:

the slider end itself doesn't have an approach circle.
since when did sliders not have slider balls?
how is that relevant though?
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
The slider ball reaching the end of the slider is the equivalent for an approach circle for the slider end.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Yeah, it's not easy to tell the timings of circles which are stacked under slider ends. They feel pretty bad to hit anyway, because the point of a slider is to push the cursor in a direction, not go somewhere and then stop suddenly.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose

Shiirn wrote:

The slider ball reaching the end of the slider is the equivalent for an approach circle for the slider end.
no it isn't. You can see the difference between two stacked approach circles.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
I guess I'm just a strange player for reading sliderends like that. Sorry.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Well, sliderend stack mostly follow music, so you don't need visual cues. And if you play a rhythmn games following only visual cues your doing it wrong.

Plus, yeah Shiirn is right. You arleady got the sliderball as a simi-approach circle for the sliderend.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
2 stacked notes use approach circles, which are identical methods to tell time. The time between the two notes is simply the distance between the approach circles. Both compliment each other to help the play understand when to hit the note.

1 stacked note under a slider will use a slider ball and an approach circle to tell time. The approach circle's speed is independent of the slider ball's speed. To determine the time between the slider end and the stacked note, your brain has to calculate at what beat the slider will end, then calculate the circle's beat based solely on the approach circle. Your brain has to do a lot more work to figure out the slider end and the approach circle.

The point is it's not easy. I can just imagine mixing re-rave notes with osu! style notes and people saying "well the re-rave notes rotate, so that's sort of like an approach circle. It's fine".
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

ziin wrote:

2 stacked notes use approach circles, which are identical methods to tell time. The time between the two notes is simply the distance between the approach circles. Both compliment each other to help the play understand when to hit the note.
^. Since stacked slider ends don't have this cue, they should be guidelined to Hard and up. Reading them is about as hard as reading antijumps. Reading the first object after a break is similar in principle but easier since you have all sorts of time in advance to read it.

Let's please not talk about rerave... All the nightmare hit elements they use, seemingly only to confuse the player. osu! has always been gameplay focused and avoids having different types of objects to communicate the same kinds of actions. The day osu! has moving hitcircles is the day I leave for good.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
Can someone post an image of both cases please? I think I don't fully understand this issue :P
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Circle stacked under slider end. Please don't do this in Easy difficulties and sparingly in Normal difficulties (or at least keep a constant rhythm instead of throwing out some random offbeat) due to naturally higher difficulty in readability.
SPOILER

Same situation as above, but with the stacked note 1/2 beat after the slider end. Note how similar it is visually.
SPOILER

Three stacked notes. Same rhythm as the first example.
SPOILER
Last edited by Garven , edited 2 times in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Garven, could you also prepare a screenshot where the object stacked on the slider end only appears a 1/2 later? To further illustrate how similar it looks.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
Are the next two notes 1/4 beat after the slider, or is there a 1/2 beat space between the slider end and notes?

SPOILER

SPOILER
The correct answer was 1/4

What about here?

SPOILER


These are placed a 1/2 beat after the slider

Now let's say they are stacked notes instead:

SPOILER

versus

SPOILER

Most above average players don't even pay attention to approach circles for the most part, instead they focus on the timing and ordering of how the hitcircles themselves appear. This is why hidden and high approach rate are so easy. However, you can't really see hitcircles fade in very well when they are stacked. The best cues there are the approach circles. Unlike non-stacked notes, where approach circles are actually a pretty terrible timing mechanism, the approach circle differences become very obvious on stacked notes.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Change the ruling to take in mind slider ends instead of slider tracks then?
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
stack with slider's end is used sometimes in a Normal difficulty (just saying myself), with slidertracks is never, because the beats are not close enough to create such a pattern.

what Garven said is about ok for a guideline, but plz only guideline not rules, because i could easily think of some special cases for that.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Lybydose wrote:

Are the next two notes 1/4 beat after the slider, or is there a 1/2 beat space between the slider end and notes?

SPOILER

SPOILER
The correct answer was 1/4

What about here?

SPOILER


These are placed a 1/2 beat after the slider

Now let's say they are stacked notes instead:

SPOILER

versus

SPOILER

Most above average players don't even pay attention to approach circles for the most part, instead they focus on the timing and ordering of how the hitcircles themselves appear. This is why hidden and high approach rate are so easy. However, you can't really see hitcircles fade in very well when they are stacked. The best cues there are the approach circles. Unlike non-stacked notes, where approach circles are actually a pretty terrible timing mechanism, the approach circle differences become very obvious on stacked notes
Because static images perfectly reflect flow and musical timing. Props. Does a splendid job of disproving the theory that slider movement implies approach rate.


....or not.


Garven's suggestion is very good: If you're going to stack notes under sliders on easier difficulties, by all means do so, but keep it consistent. I recently modded a map that often switched between 1/2 and 1/1, and it was an honest nightmare to play with a Normal mindset. I told him to switch all the 1/2 to 1/1 patterns, and it played beautifully.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
The omg thing:

Osu! is a rhythmn game. You're doing it wrong if you don't follow the music. (you, to the player). It's more than obvious while playing, the next time put a image of when the ball is at the slider end, not the start.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Did you even read any of the text accompanying the images, Haku? Try that, then post something useful. You might actually get somewhere that way.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Start

End

They're 1/4 1/2 1/1
bullshit. direct confront them by yourself.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
You're entirely missing the point Haku,the thing is that you won't have sliders to compare and with the slow approach rate that easier maps have it will be hard to tell whether the note is at 1/4, 1/2 or 1/1 unless it's used in a constant rythm like Shiirn explained.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
no problems at AR 0, neither AR 10.
plus the slider-follow circle (1), your logic (2), the sound(3), sliderball(4), approach circle(5)
Ah, and the comparison screenshot was to make you see is really seeable the difference.

A guideline for things like this is ultraoverkill.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
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