Closest pinyin sound to ü is "yi" btw. I can see why "yu" would be read as "yoo" cuz you naturally make "oo" sound with u. You naturally make "ee" sound with i. "yi" is closest imo as someone who speaks mandarin and english, what do you think?
I can agree with that. It's not exact, but way closer than "yu" or "v", at least if you read it as in any other romanisation system we currently use.Monstrata wrote:
Closest pinyin sound to ü is "yi" btw. I can see why "yu" would be read as "yoo" cuz you naturally make "oo" sound with u. You naturally make "ee" sound with i. "yi" is closest imo as someone who speaks mandarin and english, what do you think?
Because searching would be much more complicated. Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.Kroytz wrote:
Why don’t we just allow Unicode characters to be used when submitting beatmaps and we can solve all our problems? (serious)
Yes, but "ae", "o/oe" and "aa" seem to have a basis in pronunciation, at least. "v" is a choice based on keyboard layout. Which will not be even close if you actually try to pronounce it.CXu wrote:
Similarly, we have æ ø å in Norwegian/Danish (and ä ö å in Swedish) which usually just get changed to ae, o/oe, aa, at least in Norwegian. The ø kinda sounds like the i in first, while å is like the o in old.
In my opinion "yi" is not feasible to be implemented since there already exists "yi" as a syllable in Pin Yin system. Using yi will produce new confusions.Monstrata wrote:
Closest pinyin sound to ü is "yi" btw. I can see why "yu" would be read as "yoo" cuz you naturally make "oo" sound with u. You naturally make "ee" sound with i. "yi" is closest imo as someone who speaks mandarin and english, what do you think?
Also, before you try to regard "easier to pronounce for non-Mandarin speakers" as an advantage of any other choice than "v", you need to make sure whether the pronunciation of the new choice is, at least, inclined to the correct pronunciation of that in Mandarin, otherwise, the "easier to speak" statement will not be a valid reason. Since "yu" is far more from being similar to ü, it is already disqualified itself for having the advantage in pronunciation.Fycho wrote:
It could be read easily by English speakers.
Are you sure nobody does that? And are you sure you will end up getting ü? What do you mean by “pinyin” layout? Input method? Softwares? Human-machine interfaces? If so, why osu! cannot do that? Asserting by vocabularies like “nobody” is not convincing, you might need to provide evidence to support your idea.Wafu wrote:
nobody does that. Majority of people will still write "ü" and if you use the "v" on the pinyin layout, you will end up getting "ü" anyway.
So what do you actually mean? You posted "Majority of people will still write ü" while "Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc."Wafu wrote:
Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.
Fycho wrote:
For the TV Size thing, drop some opinions:
For example this song: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/477045
The song has a game ver that without "~TV animation ver.~", and has a TV ver later that labled with "~TV animation ver.~" to distinguish. They are different in Instrument and lyrics. In this case, (TVsize) aren't necessary but not for "~TV animation ver.~". That popular "~Anime Ban~" is pretty similar stuff.
I believe there is a metadata discretion when handling things like this.
Wafu wrote:
Kroytz wrote:
Why don’t we just allow Unicode characters to be used when submitting beatmaps and we can solve all our problems? (serious)
Because searching would be much more complicated. Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.
Aa has no relation to the pronounciation of å other than å looking similar to a. There's also still the ll in Spanish for example, which isn't pronounced like what an English speaker would think.Wafu wrote:
Because searching would be much more complicated. Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.Kroytz wrote:
Why don’t we just allow Unicode characters to be used when submitting beatmaps and we can solve all our problems? (serious)Yes, but "ae", "o/oe" and "aa" seem to have a basis in pronunciation, at least. "v" is a choice based on keyboard layout. Which will not be even close if you actually try to pronounce it.CXu wrote:
Similarly, we have æ ø å in Norwegian/Danish (and ä ö å in Swedish) which usually just get changed to ae, o/oe, aa, at least in Norwegian. The ø kinda sounds like the i in first, while å is like the o in old.
Let's take stuff out of the context again, nice. You can't be serious at this point.Regraz wrote:
Are you sure nobody does that? And are you sure you will end up getting ü? What do you mean by “pinyin” layout? Input method? Softwares? Human-machine interfaces? If so, why osu! cannot do that? Asserting by vocabularies like “nobody” is not convincing, you might need to provide evidence to support your idea.Wafu wrote:
nobody does that. Majority of people will still write "ü" and if you use the "v" on the pinyin layout, you will end up getting "ü" anyway.So what do you actually mean? You posted "Majority of people will still write ü" while "Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc."Wafu wrote:
Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.
In my opinion, for average reader/player who knows nothing about the language, it would be "yi". "v" without any knowledge will be always pronounced as you see it, "yu" would be pronounced as "yoo", "yi" would be pronounced as "yi". The only thing missing here is the accent needed to pronounce it properly, which player with no knowledge will not use intuitively anyway.Ephemeral wrote:
out of "yu" vs "yi" (with the caveat expressed above that "yi" exists in pinyin already) vs "v" (with the caveat that using v as a vowel is a ludicrous proposition for any english speaker, native or otherwise), which would be the most "expected" use in the context of an everyday, average reader/player with no knowledge or understanding of the language?
answer in <200 words only plz
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
Naotoshi wrote:
because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................
Naotoshi wrote:
because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................
https://soundcloud.com/gloriorbelli/in-paradisvmpeppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.
i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.
Emilia wrote:
i see no real reason for "v" to not be used because its already so established to chinese players.
Again, romanisation was never aimed at native speakers in the first place, so whether it is estabilished and comfortable to chinese players shouldn't really matter here.peppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.
Eh, I think there's more than just pronounciation that's important here. There will be confusion if a non-native speaker tries to talk about a song with a native speaker, if the choice of romanization is different from what native speakers are used to. It's kind of like if we were to transliterate "llamo" to "yamo" for Spanish songs, to closer represent the actual sound.peppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.
i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.
No, because it's the way of writing Old/Classical/... Latin which doesn't need Romanisation. If we want to establish a rule about Romanisation, we simply find which Romanisation system is the best, keep the Latin script characters as is and figure out how to replace the special characters that we can't use. And it has to be based on something that objectively makes sense to a regular player who knows nothing about Romanisation or that language.Youmu Chan wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/gloriorbelli/in-paradisvmpeppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.
i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.
Here is a song with title in Latin using v as vowel which is in accordance to Oxford way of typing Latin. IF some day someone maps this song, are you indicating that we shall change the name to In Paradisum instead? I don't think that makes sense, so why do you oppose "v" in the first place?
To me this is sayingWafu wrote:
No, because it's the way of writing Old/Classical/... Latin which doesn't need Romanisation. If we want to establish a rule about Romanisation, we simply find which Romanisation system is the best, keep the Latin script characters as is and figure out how to replace the special characters that we can't use. And it has to be based on something that objectively makes sense to a regular player who knows nothing about Romanisation or that language.
"v" in pinyin is has no basis other than what you press on the keyboard to write it, it could as well be "k" because you would technically be pressing "k" on Dvorak keyboard layout. Either one makes no sense, because regular user has no chance of knowing that in pinyin input method, this would actually produce ü.
We should differentiate Latin and Latin script without mixing it much. In any case, even if we considered that "v" was (u was added to Latin in 16th century) pronounced "u" in Latin language, ü still doesn't sound like either "v" or "u".
That's completely true, the problem is that romanization isnt accurate, mandarin has multiple tones and meanings for words that sound exactly the same to a non-native, romanization is just supposed to help you refer to something to other non-natives, the way you pronounce something doesnt really matter as long as the other person understands what youre trying to saypeppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
asked around a bit and Nyu is pronounced like nee-yooh (like a very exaggerated new). The first portion gets the sound right and the second portion get the mouth shape right. Just sharing information lol this is no relation with stuff down there.Fycho wrote:
yu:
English speakers would read it "yoo", which has different tone from "ü" My description of the vowel ü is like this: firstly shape your mouth like you're going to pronounce the word "you," but instead of a vowel that sounds like oo (in moo) do a ee sound (like in bee or he) instead. Do not change your mouth's shape
this is technically wrong, Japanese uses a pretty happy marriage of both "r" and l"" consonants, using the full mouth formation for "r", but also pressing the tongue very slightly on the roof of the mouth, making a soft 'l". since the full formation "r" is used, it more so correlates with English "r" than "l", and Japanese people (varying on dialect, of course) will recognize this, even through the imperfection of those specific characters by westerners.Fycho wrote:
If saying "v" couldn't be readed by foreigners and makes misconception, then we probably need to rework the Japanese rule as ra / ri / ru / re / ro are actually pronounced as la / li / lu / le / lo in Japanese, which is kinda unfriendly towards those latin scripts users who don't know Japanese. English speakers will pronounce "ra" differently from how it's supposed to be pronounced in Japanese.
Regraz wrote:
Naotoshi wrote:
because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................
I think it is still better than misleading players to pronunce wrong.
even that's the case, the thing should be put on the actual title should still be the lv not lyu. face the problem, even after the romanization, without knowing the language, almost no English speaker can pronounce name from other languages. Romanization is not a way to help English speakers pronounce it but help them learn it. And why do you expect to make an osu standard (which no one will accept it outside of osu) to mislead Chinese learners to find the song?????LwL wrote:
How about using "yu" for the romanized song title but mandating to put the version with "v" in the tags? That way no one would struggle to search songs if they're searching with roman input (since both ways work), non-chinese speakers would have a pronouncable title, and reading it might look slightly weird to chinese speakers but still clear as to what is meant (from what I gathered from this thread, I don't speak a single word of chinese)?
peppy wrote:
romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.
...if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.
essentially thisSupaJuke wrote:
ROMANIZATION is NOT for native speakers.
Romanization (also spelled romanisation: see spelling differences), in linguistics, is the conversion of writing from a different writing system to the Roman (Latin) script, or a system for doing so. Methods of romanization include transliteration, for representing written text, and transcription, for representing the spoken word, and combinations of both. Transcription methods can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.it actually is for Latin alphabet speaker's to pronounce, not Chinese, unfortunately;