[Taiga] wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

Within 24 hours of a map being released? Why? I don't see how this system can test your ability to sightread anyway, unless you trust people to accurately report whether they have played a map before.

I said nowhere "after being released". Score, to be accepted as valid for dan ranking, needs to have max 24 hours which means your old score is out of any discussion.

In more stupid way for kids:

You cannot submit score older than 24 hours.
Now you get it?
It doesn't matter how many times you retry to get the score.
It just doesn't accept your old scores.

Ah, I see.

edit: You do have your own gentle carefwl-not-to-offend way of expressing yourself, don't you? : P (Is fine. I was amused.)

Mio Winter wrote:

edit: You do have your own gentle carefwl-not-to-offend way of expressing yourself, don't you? : P (Is fine. I was amused.)

This is what happens when you stay at G&R for too long

[Taiga] wrote:

Each KYU/DAN have dedicated mapset which contain several lower type of maps. For STD this could be few maps in one mapset. You have requirement for example - "FC, min 98% acc" to pass and be placed in certain category. If you don't meet this requirement, you cannot progress. Basically, KYU/DAN system force you to develop all skillsets if you want to progress.

Maps for them could start from basic jumpy short maps at KYU level (lowest one) and progress to semi-tech reading + control + streaming at low DAN, reading + streaming + consistency (marathon type maps) at mid DAN up to pure tech + slider art + deathstream/stamina maps at high DAN level.

For mods it could be just - adding as a choice at first maps for HR/DT/HD up to "required to pass" at high stage which means, for example to be placed high in DAN ranking, you are required to pass additional mapsets with HR and DT (HD as a choice).

Would all maps that are currently ranked be included in this KYU/DAN system? How are the requirements e.g 98% worked out?

This system sound like it will limit what maps will be played to gain rank thus giving players less freedom to play what they want to rank up.

If the requirements are worked out manually this adds a lot more work to the ranking system. The current system is convenient because its purely mathematical and automated.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

This system sound like it will limit what maps will be played to gain rank thus giving players less freedom to play what they want to rank up.

This is what my main objection was (although I didn't mention it), but I still like the idea. Wouldn't advocate for the idea to replace the current system unless I see it worked out more clearly.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Each KYU/DAN have dedicated mapset which contain several lower type of maps. For STD this could be few maps in one mapset. You have requirement for example - "FC, min 98% acc" to pass and be placed in certain category. If you don't meet this requirement, you cannot progress. Basically, KYU/DAN system force you to develop all skillsets if you want to progress.

Maps for them could start from basic jumpy short maps at KYU level (lowest one) and progress to semi-tech reading + control + streaming at low DAN, reading + streaming + consistency (marathon type maps) at mid DAN up to pure tech + slider art + deathstream/stamina maps at high DAN level.

For mods it could be just - adding as a choice at first maps for HR/DT/HD up to "required to pass" at high stage which means, for example to be placed high in DAN ranking, you are required to pass additional mapsets with HR and DT (HD as a choice).

Would all maps that are currently ranked be included in this KYU/DAN system? How are the requirements e.g 98% worked out?

This system sound like it will limit what maps will be played to gain rank thus giving players less freedom to play what they want to rank up.

If the requirements are worked out manually this adds a lot more work to the ranking system. The current system is convenient because its purely mathematical and automated.

Same thing like in Mania, you play maps to progress your skills but only certain once, widely considered as balanced maps are included to stage test.
Normally it works like:

1st DAN:
Required FC, 98% acc minimum:
- map 1
- map 2
- map 3

Choice difficulty mode (required one pack, maximum 1 x miss, minimum 98% acc): - here you need to pick either DT or HR and meet requirements for stage to be cleared
DT:
- map 1
- map 2
HR:
- map 1
- map 2

Main reason for it is completely eliminate any chance to rank up just by playing tv-size and 30s hyper short maps and reward players with higher level skillsets who mainly focused on all-round progression (which is way harder and more time consuming).

Current PP system is broken as fuck right now, it is practically impossible to fix it due massive inflation of pp from latest 30s maps meta. It doesn't show up true skill till around... high 4-digit? Something like this.

Yes, DAN system limit players in what counts toward ranking but as I said - it rewards skill, not how much time someone spend on farming (unless someone loves to farm full size maps since only this type could show up here).

What about executing ranking system? Well, current way of how scores are processed by API + replay analyzer could be helpfull, it is fact that score processing could take some time and required heavy load server (as I said, I could provide Xeon type machine for a dedicated calculation and score processing server) but it could actually remove most of human work. Only thing what human moderator could do is manually watch replay if system had any objections (replay analyzer could found any trace of cheating).

HOWEVER - system could not remove farming state of the game - once you apply for stage test, every score you make could be saved and counts as far as it is not older than 24 hours (which is just an security to not submit scores made months/years ago). Your stage test can take for example 3 months, it doesn't matter.

Now from completely different side of medal - forcing players to play certain type of maps just to progress could also benefit them and their skillset. If typical tv-size pp farmer decided to progress in DAN system, well - even if he farms up every stage, at the end, his skillset will benefit from it due mappool being made for all-rounder type players. It could just do good for him.

Main problem is - where to find Heavily Experienced mappoolers to created this kind of sets ;/

.

d4m0 wrote:

this thread is filled with a bunch of 'philosophers' arguing about ayn rand and no one's even thought to define what pp maps are yet...

It was already defined, you just need to learn to read with understanding.

d4m0 wrote:

this thread is filled with a bunch of 'philosophers' arguing about ayn rand and no one's even thought to define what pp maps are yet...

We have 2k post counts on our accounts I think we defined it somewhere along the line

We didn't have anyone arguing about Any Rand, just one person repeating the same misconceptions about her ideology as anyone else who has nothing but a superficial understanding of it.

Best way to fix the PP system = get rid of it and let people decide which scores and players are the best.

B1rd wrote:

Best way to fix the PP system = get rid of it and let people decide which scores and players are the best.

This. It works in hip-hop culture, why not here...

The Gambler wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Best way to fix the PP system = get rid of it and let people decide which scores and players are the best.

This. It works in hip-hop culture, why not here...

It works here as well... but only for the best players. -GN, Riviclia and Epiphany are known as one of the best at what they are good at (even if those skills aren't the most PP-efficient skills) because of YouTube and map leaderboards. Tournaments are also a good way for the best to be recognised.

I don't want the PP system to go away. It's a good measure of how good a player is (with many exceptions), and I like having such a measure available to me. It's usefwl for example when playing multi and trying to quickly find players you can fairly compete against. Don't get rid of PP!

Mio Winter wrote:

It works here as well... but only for the best players. -GN, Riviclia and Epiphany are known as one of the best at what they are good at (even if those skills aren't the most PP-efficient skills) because of YouTube and map leaderboards. Tournaments are also a good way for the best to be recognised.

I don't want the PP system to go away. It's a good measure of how good a player is (with many exceptions), and I like having such a measure available to me. It's usefwl for example when playing multi and trying to quickly find players you can fairly compete against. Don't get rid of PP!

That's just a minor convenience at best.

Yes you have a few players who are recognised for their skill a part from the PP system. That's not a convincing argument. The vast majority of players are influenced by the PP system, thus the vast majority of maps are. Without it, we can have a system akin to the music industry, where everyone can be free to listen the the genre they like. That is in contrast to the current system, where there is one meta, and the further maps deviate from the meta the rarer they become. Before PPv2, top players competed over interesting maps, Red Goose, Blue Dragon maps, etc. Now it's just all farm maps.

Rather than top ranks and a pp system, you should just be able to pick your favourite scores and display them in your profile.

B1rd wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

It works here as well... but only for the best players. -GN, Riviclia and Epiphany are known as one of the best at what they are good at (even if those skills aren't the most PP-efficient skills) because of YouTube and map leaderboards. Tournaments are also a good way for the best to be recognised.

I don't want the PP system to go away. It's a good measure of how good a player is (with many exceptions), and I like having such a measure available to me. It's usefwl for example when playing multi and trying to quickly find players you can fairly compete against. Don't get rid of PP!

That's just a minor convenience at best.

Yes you have a few players who are recognised for their skill a part from the PP system. That's not a convincing argument. The vast majority of players are influenced by the PP system, thus the vast majority of maps are. Without it, we can have a system akin to the music industry, where everyone can be free to listen the the genre they like. That is in contrast to the current system, where there is one meta, and the further maps deviate from the meta the rarer they become. Before PPv2, top players competed over interesting maps, Red Goose, Blue Dragon maps, etc. Now it's just all farm maps.

What I see are players who compete over PP maps and other maps. Leaderboards play a big role in inspiring competition aside from PP. I don't buy that PP has made interesting competitions rarer. At least it inspires more interesting competition than the previous rankings which were based on total score from all your plays.

B1rd wrote:

Rather than top ranks and a pp system, you should just be able to pick your favourite scores and display them in your profile.

You can still do so this by, say, uploading YT videos to your profile page or just make a statement about your achievements, but I'd also like better website support for this. : )

Mio Winter wrote:

What I see are players who compete over PP maps and other maps. Leaderboards play a big role in inspiring competition aside from PP. I don't buy that PP has made interesting competitions rarer. At least it inspires more interesting competition than the previous rankings which were based on total score from all your plays.

B1rd wrote:

Rather than top ranks and a pp system, you should just be able to pick your favourite scores and display them in your profile.

You can still do so this by, say, uploading YT videos to your profile page or just make a statement about your achievements, but I'd also like better website support for this. : )

You have to be blind not to see the massive impact PPv2 has had on mapping and what people play. Go to 90% of anyone's top ranks any you will see farm maps. That means that for 90% of people, what they play has been based on the PP system and not on the skills that they personally feel are most valuable or worthwhile. Previously, score did have a big influence similar to PPv2, however it was less relevant to highly skilled players like Cookiezi and rrtyui thus you would see more interesting competition.

Having scores displayed in one's profile is my suggestion for the go to method of determining someone skill. No one actually watches your Youtube videos if you're not in the top 10.

B1rd wrote:

You have to be blind not to see the massive impact PPv2 has had on mapping and what people play. Go to 90% of anyone's top ranks any you will see farm maps. That means that for 90% of people, what they play has been based on the PP system and not on the skills that they personally feel are most valuable or worthwhile. Previously, score did have a big influence similar to PPv2, however it was less relevant to highly skilled players like Cookiezi and rrtyui thus you would see more interesting competition.

Having scores displayed in one's profile is my suggestion for the go to method of determining someone skill. No one actually watches your Youtube videos if you're not in the top 10.

People's top ranks are PP maps because it's much easier to get PP maps into your top ranks than other maps. ~99 % of the maps I play aren't PP maps, but my all my top ranks will display the 1 % of maps that are easier to get PP from. So it can't be used as evidence to find out which maps most people play.

Nevertheless, I still believe PP maps are the most popular. Probably because of a combination of easy-to-read jump maps being the most fun to play for most people and because they give PP.

And to be fair, I haven't played for more than a year, so I haven't noticed any changes in whether people play interesting maps or not. I just see that interesting maps are being played a lot, both by relatively low-ranking players in multi and by the top players. If you say you witness a change, then maybe you're right.

B1rd wrote:

Without it, we can have a system akin to the music industry, where everyone can be free to listen the the genre they like.

Aren't you the guy who said that the music "industry" pumps out nothing but generic garbage?

B1rd wrote:

Rather than top ranks and a pp system, you should just be able to pick your favourite scores and display them in your profile.

Why not have both?

B1rd wrote:

We didn't have anyone arguing about Any Rand, just one person repeating the same misconceptions about her ideology as anyone else who has nothing but a superficial understanding of it.

Simpsons episode taking a jab at Rand's "philosophy" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wob10lOLWY

"Helping is Futile"

Im sorry but Ayn's philosophy is not controversial, its just plain wrong in this day and age. Just read any freshman level philosophy books like "how to make good decisions" by Iain King. Rational Egoism is dead.

Roark's egoistic emotionless character was inspired by Ayn Rand's admiration for William Edward Hickman, a horrific psychopath [3]. Ayn Rand thinks the world would be a better place if people were more like serial killers and the book was written before the end of world war 2 when the morality of many people were questionable. Ayn regularly took amphetamines which amplified her already antisocial, selfish personality. Her books resonate with poorly educated antisocial teens who want to justify their shitty self centered world view. [1][2]

That being said there is merit to her books. Just don't take anything said in the books literally and ignore her obviously incorrect ideologies. She had a hard life without much love or support which made her rely only on herself which translated into the books that were written.

[1] http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/ ... -rand.html
[2] https://boundlessrationality.wordpress. ... ntainhead/
[3] http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/ ... -cold.html

d4m0 wrote:

this thread is filled with a bunch of 'philosophers' arguing about ayn rand and no one's even thought to define what pp maps are yet...

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but you are not adding to the conversation and you are watering down this topic exactly like the people you are criticizing because you didn't even bother to read or think.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Simpsons episode taking a jab at Rand's "philosophy" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wob10lOLWY

"Helping is Futile"

Im sorry but Ayn's philosophy is not controversial, its just plain wrong in this day and age. Just read any freshman level philosophy books like "how to make good decisions" by Iain King. Rational Egoism is dead.

Roark's egoistic emotionless character was inspired by Ayn Rand's admiration for William Edward Hickman, a horrific psychopath [3]. Ayn Rand thinks the world would be a better place if people were more like serial killers and the book was written before the end of world war 2 when the morality of many people were questionable. Ayn regularly took amphetamines which amplified her already antisocial, selfish personality. Her books resonate with poorly educated antisocial teens who want to justify their shitty self centered world view. [1][2]

For example

That being said there is merit to her books. Just don't take anything said in the books literally and ignore her obviously incorrect ideologies. She had a hard life without much love or support which made her rely only on herself which translated into the books that were written.

[1] http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/ ... -rand.html
[2] https://boundlessrationality.wordpress. ... ntainhead/
[3] http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/ ... -cold.html

That's exactly why you don't have any in depth understanding of objectivism. You think it's just about being selfish, and you seek some random internet articles to validate your views. Ayn Rand was inspired in part by the serial killer, but not the fact that he was a serial killer. She admired the fact that he was a social pariah rather than the deed he had committed. Your argument is just an emotional argument that links to opinion pieces, your claims are just ad hominems which don't actually attempt to debunk objectivism

By no means is it a perfect ideology, but it has some good points if you don't strawman it in the way that you're doing.

Yes, many mappers are found to map for pp. No, not many players are found to play for pp.

Blame the modders for allowing to get away with pp mapping. They are the ones who selectively promote pp maps. Queue has some 20 maps, pick only the ones you believe will give most pp. Rinse and repeat. I believe while that system is effective, that system is also biased/rigged by an inner circle.

The players who play for pp are the top 100k or so. Those will put on mods and take advantage of the flawed system. However, majority of the players play maps just to have fun. It just happens to be so that some pp maps are fun to play in lobbies. More lower ranked players play those pp maps and fail than players trying to farm them.

B1rd wrote:

That's exactly why you don't have any in depth understanding of objectivism. You think it's just about being selfish

I was referring to Egoism as being selfish, not objectivism. Objectivism works to a certain extent until you apply it to your entire worldview including, ethics and politics which are in of themselves, subjective. [1] I already explained to you how music is subjective so you can understand how these domains are also subjective.

B1rd wrote:

and you seek some random internet articles to validate your views.

I also linked an episode of the Simpsons showing the creators of the show also look down on her philosophy, did you watch it? At the very least could you read the single article I linked below? It shows where objectivism works and when it falls flat.

B1rd wrote:

Ayn Rand was inspired in part by the serial killer, but not the fact that he was a serial killer. She admired the fact that he was a social pariah rather than the deed he had committed.

Yes she admired how his emotions were totally unaffected by anything outside of his worldview. Roark felt bits of emotion and sought to bury them. Rand believes all emotion is deceptive in nature and should be ignored completely when considering your worldview. This is wrong since your gut feeling isn't always right but it can serve as a guide to complex or illogical situations. The subconscious mind comes forth through emotion and it is a powerful tool where logic is deficient. (like social situations) (which makes sense because Rand is antisocial)

This shows why she was infatuated by the killer because she has little control of her subconscious mind and so she is a poor judge of character. Any sane person would not fall in love with a killer they have never met.

B1rd wrote:

Your argument is just an emotional argument that links to opinion pieces

I hope my arguments are at least partially emotional. Complex subjective topics should not be looked at purely objectively since logic in itself is deficient for all but objective arguments

B1rd wrote:

your claims are just ad hominems which don't actually attempt to debunk objectivism. By no means is it a perfect ideology, but it has some good points if you don't strawman it in the way that you're doing.

Ad hominems are valid when the person being criticized relates to the point being conveyed. Rand's fallacies relate to her character but her character is not the fallacy.

[1] https://loveandragemedia.org/2015/09/27 ... hilosophy/

I find it so funny that the same people that spam forum posts saying "Enjoy the game, do what you like, play what you wanna play" are the same people sitting here telling people what not to play

Stop with the double standards. I personally am not a farmer but if I play a map that I can FC yeah I'm gonna give it a few extra tries especially if it'll give me a nice reward for doing so. Shaming people for farming is just like shaming people who play for skill. "Farming is so dumb, this is a rhythm game not a spam keyboard for PP game" Same can be applied to all playstyles "This is a rhythm game meant to be enjoyed not grinded on to be the best player". (Disclaimer: these are examples and not my opinion).

Open your eyes and realise what you are really typing when you bad mouth farmers.

OfficialPyroh wrote:

I find it so funny that the same people that spam forum posts saying "Enjoy the game, do what you like, play what you wanna play" are the same people sitting here telling people what not to play

Completely off topic ... and not trying to defend anyone .... but

Most people who tells other how to play already have the presumption that people who ask for advice already enjoys the game, we tell people to enjoy game do what you like and play what you wanna play, when they fundamentally don't have the intention of investing more time in the game, what's the fukin point in giving them our opinion on how people should play when they don't even enjoy the game? At the end of the day we are just dick heads on the internet acting according tribalism, don't need to act all righteous, don't you think i as a guy who spent 2 years on this forum would get bored if everyday I just tell people play however they want to play?

Lastly ask yourself, do you think your little speech would work and people would suddenly realize their hypocrisy? Fuk no lol and your intentions was painfully obvious that it was not to change us for the benefit of the community, what ever you're intentions were will probably back fire and the only one who's going to be affected is yourself.

Post more buddy

OfficialPyroh wrote:

I find it so funny that the same people that spam forum posts saying "Enjoy the game, do what you like, play what you wanna play" are the same people sitting here telling people what not to play

Stop with the double standards. I personally am not a farmer but if I play a map that I can FC yeah I'm gonna give it a few extra tries especially if it'll give me a nice reward for doing so. Shaming people for farming is just like shaming people who play for skill. "Farming is so dumb, this is a rhythm game not a spam keyboard for PP game" Same can be applied to all playstyles "This is a rhythm game meant to be enjoyed not grinded on to be the best player". (Disclaimer: these are examples and not my opinion).

Open your eyes and realise what you are really typing when you bad mouth farmers.

I agree that there is too much toxic "but only stupid people play this way!" sentiment going around. Like, there are people attacking other people for trying to gain PP, and there are people attacking people for not gaining PP (e.g. "oh, so you think you're better than everyone else by abstaining from the PP system?").

A pinch of respect for different choices would resolve most of these issues. I'm not talking about posts discussing how to make the game more enjoyable for most (e.g. arguing for changes in the PP system, or its abolishment; I think such posts are productive), but rather about the attacks on the people directly.

(And here I am, attacking people for attacking people. I suppose I'm fine with that.)

Bleh.

Any ranking system will be biased in some way depending on how the creator values different aspects of playing.
A change in the system will in turn shift the "mapping meta" to whatever would give the most gains in said system.
Farm maps are completely dependent on your own skillset.

CXu wrote:

Bleh.

Any ranking system will be biased in some way depending on how the creator values different aspects of playing.
A change in the system will in turn shift the "mapping meta" to whatever would give the most gains in said system.
Farm maps are completely dependent on your own skillset.

what if you equalize those aspects, not even fully, but "mostly" and for example make the best speed scores in the game worth like 600pp and keep the best aim scores 700+ pp?

it would be the same bias in a more healthy dose because right now it's 320-400pp vs 700+pp

same with reading, you can buff anything to the point where the order is the same and only proportions are different

ok just kidding you are right because pp maps would have 1/6 300-350bpm doubletap streams in that case

[Taiga] wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

What's up with the hate on PP maps?

I hear people all the time complaining about mappers making maps that are easy to get PP from, but it doesn't unfairly advantage anyone, since anyone can play them (but, seriously, why would you play the choco-cookie song? it's terrible).

And while we're on it, what's up with the hate on players who try to gain PP? It seems like a fun activity.

I will give you an example, from life:

What's up with all hate towards fastfoods?

Simple: it taste great and everyone love it despite it is full of chemicals and artificial ingredients who are supposed to imitate real food, as well as everyone only hear "but it is natural". One simple example - naturally made roll from flour, milk, water, eggs taste completely different from this sold in fastfood shit right? Right! You can make it in home, better, if you live in small agricultural village, you have access to truly natural ingredients, yet you will never create same taste of any single shit sold in fastfood. Reason is simple - amount of chemicals added in production stage to make it look better, taste better, keep fresh longer.

Does people like it? - Yes, hell yea, tons of kids and adults who doesn't care about healthy life loves it.
Is it good? - Hell no, it simply decrease your lifespan due your body being unable to handle all this chemicals.

Translating to pp maps:

Does people like them? - Yes! They give massive amount of pp and you don't need to work for it at all, you don't need to obtain any skillsets, you just need to mash keys and get FC.
Is it good? - Hell no, it simply makes you a worst kind of player who will be never be a competition to someone who spend his time to polish consistency, accuracy and stamina.

You simply will NEVER see a pp farmer who spend his life on monstrata garbage maps going higher in any tournament than group stage.

Yet to find balance, in both situations:

Eating fastfood from time to time is fine - playing pp maps from time to time when you somehow miss some pp, you want to get some certain rank or just fill the gap for some shit is fine.

TL;DR:

Sorry but 10k all-rounder player with stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina will be always better than 1k player who got all pp from 30s-1m maps.

PP maps makes ranking irrelevant right now.
Ranking means jackshit right now.
Telling someone that you are higher than him is pointless if your top ranks from top to bottom are garbage pp maps while other guy have from top to bottom mainly full size 1k+ combo, tech maps, slider art maps and maybe just some pp maps - Why? - Because he can just simply pick one of his top ranks, ask you to play it and you will need to really work out to get close to his score while he pick one of your top ranks 30s map and FC it at max few tries.

I had this situation myself in random multi where 4k rank player wasnt able to reach more than 400 combo on a 4,7* 10min marathon map. His top ranks were.... yeah - harumachi, cookie monster, bill nye, ok dad etc.
It was fun to see random 30-40k players being placed higher than a "4k high ranked player".

1k player to get pp from 30s to 1m map is acually quite hard for a play around 370-400pp, since you have stable, high quality aim consistency, high accuracy and good stamina why don,t you try fc best friends dt or haitai dt