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Tick rate 0.x

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Noob Man
1,947 posts
Joined February 2010
Noob Man

D33d wrote:

This is a rhythm action game, which is derived from a game about dancing. Dancing to the beat. A beat which is followed by tick rate 1 at the very least.
So, if I follow this argument, any innovation that can be made is bad because it's not following the original principe of the game ?
So, Super Mario 64 is a bad Mario game because you can punch your ennemies, which was impossible in the Mario Bros/Mario World ? Ô_o

I don't have any opinion about the slider tick rate, usually 1 is fine, but please don't use bad arguments like this one. ><


inb4 i'm stupid
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Noob Man wrote:

So, Super Mario 64 is a bad Mario game because you can punch your ennemies, which was impossible in the Mario Bros/Mario World ? Ô_o
Ironically i never defeated enemies by punching in SM64 since it wasnt very convenient unlike jumping on them.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Shiirn wrote:

A) Reaction images do not suffice for a counter-argument
B) Spamming retry is no excuse for bad mapping
C) Build a better argument like other people do
Can't really argue with a person who thinks that osu is a game about dancing.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
Not all songs have a sound on every single 1/1 time beat

Ticks, like everything else in osu!, should fit the sounds in the song, not the units of time called a beat :?
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
If there aren't any threats to the game play itself, I don't see the problem having it open for the possibilities. It's just like jumps. Mappers should be sane with their choices, and modders should be okay with checking if the mapper is using the technique correctly.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

pieguy1372 wrote:

Not all songs have a sound on every single 1/1 time beat
you got the wrong bpm.

bmin11 wrote:

If there aren't any threats to the game play itself, I don't see the problem having it open for the possibilities. It's just like jumps. Mappers should be sane with their choices, and modders should be okay with checking if the mapper is using the technique correctly.
The threats to gameplay are earlier in the thread.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
"Sound" and "pulse" are not always the same concept. A song can potentially have no sound on a whole beat, but still have a pulse there.

This whole philosophical argument has to deal with whether ticks represent pulses or sounds.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

D33d wrote:

Retrying because some needless crap happened is awful and shouldn't happen.

The entire point of slider ticks is that a slider has to be followed properly and that it replenishes score. I don't see why such a fuss has to be made over this--anything slower than a tick on every beat would be too slow for pretty much all music and if there are really long sections with no underlying beat, then why the Hell are you mapping that song? This is a rhythm action game, which is derived from a game about dancing. Dancing to the beat. A beat which is followed by tick rate 1 at the very least.

This community is hilarious.
The hilarious thing moreover is you saying tick 1 fit all maps... well, If you double the BPMs of a maps timing.... how much tick rate 1 is? It is 1/2, so 0,5, plus people have their ways of mapping so things like "you have to use the same slider tick rate in all the map" IT'S CRAP", some want to follow double the ticks, some the half, some the correct number that depend too on the difficulty level.
The removing of tick rate 0,5 was HIGHLY Nosense,
Still neutral on tick rate 0.
Not Adding the "Variable tick rate" function because of some nosense bad using crap ( ok, that's a laugh, modder will say of something is bad used and if it's used so much, many will say it so... and a map that wasn't modded is difficult to even get "saw" by MATs/BATs) is a top-notch nosense too.

Then it go to most rules being actually something that's called "common sense".
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

If you double the BPMs of a maps timing....
You should never need to do this.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Some difficult-to-find timing need that makeshift to become more approssimative and more easy to find.

EDIT: I ask pardon if I said some pretty aggressive things before
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Doubling the BPM doesn't make it any more or less accurate. The new white ticks lie in exactly the same places where red ticks used to lie. The new red ticks lie in exactly the same places where blue ticks used to lie, ... The colours of the ticks you place objects on are changed but the millisecond values are unaffected.

...unless you mean you're using completely wrong timing with yellow ticks which is unrankable.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Natteke wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

A) Reaction images do not suffice for a counter-argument
B) Spamming retry is no excuse for bad mapping
C) Build a better argument like other people do
Can't really argue with a person who thinks that osu is a game about dancing.
Sigh. You really should stop making an idiot of yourself. Don't even try to pass it off as trolling.

EBA and Ouendan are themed on dancing. Their inherent principles still apply to this and suggesting things WHICH ACTUALLY BOLSTER THE BASIC EXPERIENCE (doing otherwise is not "innovation;" it is just lunacy and using such a thing as an argument is an insult to those who innovate) is in the interest of making maps less shit.

I lied; this community depresses me at times.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

ziin wrote:

The threats to gameplay are earlier in the thread.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I think it was the slow down issue, right? That was proved not to be much of a threat, because only few would use ticks as a indication. Plus, if people finds it hard to catch the slow down, the problem comes from bad mapping, not from the tick.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
My main concern is that it contradicts the general intent of the slider hit evaluation methodology.
On the side, tick reading should be made available to those who want to use it. Sliders which are otherwise difficult to read can create a nice effect if used cautiously.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
ahhh can't deny that's very true. Though, I hope we could apply this as a guideline for the least, just like the stack leniency rule. Only allowing tick rate 0 on a rare case.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Doubling the BPM doesn't make it any more or less accurate. The new white ticks lie in exactly the same places where red ticks used to lie. The new red ticks lie in exactly the same places where blue ticks used to lie, ... The colours of the ticks you place objects on are changed but the millisecond values are unaffected.

...unless you mean you're using completely wrong timing with yellow ticks which is unrankable.
You can, actually, avoid 1/2 syncopes, and the higher appoximation come from the higher number of ticks

(Ah, Osu! isn't about dancing anymore now, It's like playing an instrument more to me)
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
^ If you actually need 1/16 snap, the doubled BPM is more than likely correct. If you don't, you can keep the old BPM - with 1/8 Snap Intervals that's the same number of ticks as the doubled 1/4 Snap - though 1/8 snap will only very rarely have to be used.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

If you double the BPMs of a maps timing....
You should never need to do this.
dubstep is generally 140 BPM (treble) and 70 BPM (bass).

Also, removal of 0.5 has not removed it as Haku said. It just won't be ranked anymore.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Can you link me to a map that actually needs 1/16 snap? I have a hard time believing this.
(And odds are, a song with such a high beat density should be using tick 2 or even 4 anyway.)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
0.5 is usefull too to just put ticks every 2/1, on the downbeats or on the upbeats only. Some Easy with slow long slider (low hp drain is probable) sound better with slidertick 0.5.

And I still want a sense-having explanation to not add section-variable tick rates anyway.

I can say the "dancing cursor during slider" is a good argument with tick rate 0, not with tick rate 0.5. And using high tick rates to prevent it IS overmapping.
SO:

Tick Rate 0.5
+Usefull in many cases
+Not completely absent
-Mid Slider-dancing bug using
Result: Slider-dancer are such a small part of osu! players that I can say you're just making a bunch of people angry to just prevent some rare bug

Sliderticks 0,0.25 and 0.33
+More liberty, but they wont be used so many times ( song with different time signature "could" need this )
-Really really rare
-Not preventing Dancing Slider
Result: Slider dancer are a small part of a bunch using a rare bug. Could be usefull

Section Based slider ticks(from 0.5 to 4)
+About half of the songs would benefit this in many ways
Result: Just add it now
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Per-section tick rates belong in feature requests.
How can ticks be "overmapped" when they aren't mapped at all?
Dropping the tick rate is making a gameplay change to fix a cosmetic problem.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I do admit that variable tick rate would be nice when it is appropriate. It would at least prevent people from breaking sliders and would complement smoother sections. Even so, there is nothing wrong wiith ticks breaking up a section.

Also, osu! Is definitely like playing an instrument in a sense, but that just makes it even more necessary to respect musical theory.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

D33d wrote:

Also, osu! Is definitely like playing an instrument in a sense, but that just makes it even more necessary to respect musical theory.
Nope. It isn't.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I agree that playing osu! shares many similarities to playing in a musical ensemble. Feeling like part of the music is why I enjoy it.
This may not be the same for hardcore gamers.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp

D33d wrote:

Sigh. You really should stop making an idiot of yourself. Don't even try to pass it off as trolling.

EBA and Ouendan are themed on dancing. Their inherent principles still apply to this and suggesting things WHICH ACTUALLY BOLSTER THE BASIC EXPERIENCE (doing otherwise is not "innovation;" it is just lunacy and using such a thing as an argument is an insult to those who innovate) is in the interest of making maps less shit.

I lied; this community depresses me at times.
actually, osu!, EBA and Ouendan derive from the same thing that dancing derives from

rhythm

try to think of a slider with a tick rate of zero like abruptly hitting mute on a song
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn

D33d wrote:

EBA and Ouendan are themed on dancing. Their inherent principles still apply to this and suggesting things WHICH ACTUALLY BOLSTER THE BASIC EXPERIENCE (doing otherwise is not "innovation;" it is just lunacy and using such a thing as an argument is an insult to those who innovate) is in the interest of making maps less shit.

I lied; this community depresses me at times.
You just don't get it :o The thing is, to most people, forcing tick rate 1 at least on all maps would not "bolster the basic experience". Most people think a lower tick rate is better in some cases. Please stop being so closed-minded :o

awp wrote:

try to think of a slider with a tick rate of zero like abruptly hitting mute on a song
are you serious? That's not how it works at all, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who disagrees with you.

the only thing I can really say is that everyone against this just doesn't agree with the style of those who agree with it :? Why should we put rules to restrict this when most of the community thinks it would have merit in some cases? (and yes I'm sure the majority thinks it does, it's the same people always trying to place restrictions on stuff where it doesn't need it)

That's really all I can say given how you all are thinking. Please try to be more open-minded. Even mm201 said he'd put it back if it were up to him, but it's not, so I guess all we can really do is hope peppy feels the same way. :cry:
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
you guys care way too much about ranking rather than making the best possible map you can make.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
That's what I'm saying (the best map possible part, not the rank part). If there is a potential for a better beatmap (people for like NatsumeRin), I don't see why we can't have the possibility open. If the technique were done wrongly, modders should be able to point it out and it would be a lot more obvious then pointing out a bad jump or a bad slow down.
yongtw123
1,028 posts
Joined April 2009
yongtw123

ziin wrote:

you guys care way too much about ranking rather than making the best possible map you can make.
What if it is exactly for making a better beatmap that we argue about the why the and the how of sliders?
Haruhi_sama
333 posts
Joined September 2010
Haruhi_sama
I don't think tick 0 is good.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

ziin wrote:

you guys care way too much about ranking rather than making the best possible map you can make.
Oh no, this silly prejudice again. And ranking is not a bad thing!
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

yongtw123 wrote:

ziin wrote:

you guys care way too much about ranking rather than making the best possible map you can make.
What if it is exactly for making a better beatmap that we argue about the why the and the how of sliders?
because none of it matters at all and 0.5x can never be removed, and you can make an effective tick rate 0 map if you want to easily. There's absolutely nothing stopping you except yourself.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
In situations where tick 0.5 is desired, you should always be able to half the BPM and create the same effect with tick 1.
In situations where tick 0 is desired, the problem is of a cosmetic nature and should be addressed by silencing the ticks.

(I've said this a few times already but I just thought you could use a refresher.)

I've retitled the thread, as the subject has shifted back to include 0.5 and some new variants.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

In situations where tick 0.5 is desired, you should always be able to half the BPM and create the same effect with tick 1.
In situations where tick 0 is desired, the problem is of a cosmetic nature and should be addressed by silencing the ticks.

(I've said this a few times already but I just thought you could use a refresher.)

I've retitled the thread, as the subject has shifted back to include 0.5 and some new variants.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, tick rate 0.5x can't be removed completely due to past ranked maps.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

In situations where tick 0.5 is desired, you should always be able to half the BPM and create the same effect with tick 1.
In situations where tick 0 is desired, the problem is of a cosmetic nature and should be addressed by silencing the ticks.

(I've said this a few times already but I just thought you could use a refresher.)

I've retitled the thread, as the subject has shifted back to include 0.5 and some new variants.
OBJECTION!!!

This quite much go versus what you said before: you can't just use the wrong timing to use tick rate 0.5 (vividly said by you before).

I saw actually no valid response on why it shouldn't be accepted(that's the discussion i was literally "offtopicking" here)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
That's what I'm saying here--if tick 0.5 actually fits, half BPM should also logically make sense.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs

mm201 wrote:

That's what I'm saying here--if tick 0.5 actually fits, half BPM should also logically make sense.
hey man,
you meant just because of a fitting tick rate I should change BPM of a song?

I always think osu! is a game that respects the rules of music more than the rules made by itself ehe
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Pretty sure what mm means is that I'd 0.5 does fit, the bpm is double what it should be. 0.5 doesn't make any sense on a correct bpm as there should always be a pulse on white ticks.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
there should always be a pulse on white ticks.
Always/Rules means 100%, which is NOT TRUE.
Or, let's say, it's not true for the majority.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

RandomJibberish wrote:

there should always be a pulse on white ticks.
Pretty much not rofl.

Tick Rate 0.5 have a pulse on downbeats or upbeats. So why you are saying that it doesn't fit music?
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
The entire definition of "Beats Per Minute" implies there are -beats- there. If tick 0.5 makes ticks fit the beat perfectly


well your bpm is doubled.


Of course, many songs have slowdowns and half-cours, but if 0.5 is more accurate to the beat more often than not, then clearly there is some actual bpm changes going on and you'll have a logical reason to halve the bpm during that section.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Well, music per se isn simply based on a total of beats-per-second, there can be a syncopated song or even some fast song where you have a majority of pulses on downbeats ( yet some 1/4 notes with that same BPM ) will you just half the BPM and use the wrong BPM?
If someone want to have the tick only on heavier beats, you say him to halve the BPM if he really want to use it, making him fuck up his map and timing for just an idiocy?

Tick Rate 0.5 are really usable in front off the tick rate 0 and yet still treated the same. While that depend on mapping style.
Tick Rate 0 is pretty much usable by SIMPLY silencing the slidertick, moreover a tick rate of 0.5 means he'll only want to use it on downbeats and it actually can make much more sense than anything, as the using depend on Mapper Style and Song.
Can't recall absurd song using Tick Rate 0, can recall song having tick rate 0.5 rhythmn
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn

RandomJibberish wrote:

there should always be a pulse on white ticks.
This isn't true, and I'm quite sure that the majority agree it's not true.

Shiirn wrote:

The entire definition of "Beats Per Minute" implies there are -beats- there. If tick 0.5 makes ticks fit the beat perfectly


well your bpm is doubled.
Just no. As I said, the unit of time called a beat is not the same as the sound called a beat.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Our definitions seem to be different, or you're misunderstanding me. (Or vice-versa)

Skipping beats in music is a perfectly normal, if outright common, practice.


Skipping every other "beat" for the next 10 measures isn't skipping beats, it's an outright beat rate change.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
May I redirect your attention to:

mm201 wrote:

"Sound" and "pulse" are not always the same concept. A song can potentially have no sound on a whole beat, but still have a pulse there.

This whole philosophical argument has to deal with whether ticks represent pulses or sounds.
Convincing anyone which of these two things ticks are supposed to represent could very well be impossible. I suggest we drop it.
It's not like any of this would convince peppy to bring 0.5 back anyway.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I think that people need to read the musical theory thread thoroughly, before even touching the editor.

DEEDIT: It has been mentioned already, so I'll say it again: slider ticks are generally timed to the smallest division of music that doesn't sound cluttered. While having ticks on the backbeat or strong beats might seem like a cute idea and one which makes at least a modicum of musical sense, it makes things very sparse. It just doesn't feel right and takes some of the energy out of a beatmap.

This thread has been very circular, so I think that we should be able to agree on tick rate 1 being applicable in pretty much every case, with time halving being usable when necessary. Obviously, there is nothing to prevent dodgy tick rates being hacked into maps, but mappers should prepare to be berated for it.
Last edited by D33d , edited 1 time in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

May I redirect your attention to:

mm201 wrote:

"Sound" and "pulse" are not always the same concept. A song can potentially have no sound on a whole beat, but still have a pulse there.

This whole philosophical argument has to deal with whether ticks represent pulses or sounds.
Convincing anyone which of these two things ticks are supposed to represent could very well be impossible. I suggest we drop it.
It's not like any of this would convince peppy to bring 0.5 back anyway.
May You bring me an example of invisible pulse?
There's no such thing, and if there were, it was a good reason to bring it on with Tick Rate 0 ( still "invisible" ). If it have no sound and it will have no pulse - still.
Then it goes to 0.5 having an actual pulse-related matter. A pulse every 2/1 it's still related to the mapping style of someone (Using slider in certain places and so). No pulse aren't related to the style of someone.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
May You bring me an example of invisible pulse?
There's no such thing, and if there were, it was a good reason to bring it on with Tick Rate 0 ( still "invisible" ). If it have no sound and it will have no pulse - still.
Then it goes to 0.5 having an actual pulse-related matter. A pulse every 2/1 it's still related to the mapping style of someone (Using slider in certain places and so). No pulse aren't related to the style of someone.
Again, pulse is related to the music as a fundamental element and is not an arbitrary thing. Just set the tick rate to the beat or quavers and there would be no problem with such a basic issue.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Anyway, Tick Rate is related to mapping style moreover, and depending on have you map and what you want to map, you make a better work using a certain tick rate.

Anyway, there's no such pulse in a song without sounds.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Tick Rate is related to mapping style moreover
This is why your arguement is fundamentally flawed.

Tick rate should be based off the song, not the mapper. Always.

Besides, you were arguing about how tick rate functionally does not matter in the song, or that there are times where it can be made whatever. Then you pull out the "mapping style" card?
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Tick rate 0.5 was removed and tick rate 0.0 will never be added. Ticks are part of the game. This thread has lost its interest.
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