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Rule: Every slider must have a clear and visible path to...

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pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
The first of those sentences is just because that's fucking ugly.

The second is a huge questionmark and should be left as-is for more discussion.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I don't mind the really small 1/1 1/2 sliders that overlap. I mean you don't really need to know where it goes since the slider is so short anyways >_>
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Let's get controversial. I'd go even further and say that I enjoy me some burai sliders once in a while. I will concede that there is a bit of inherent difficulty in reading them (particularly with snaking sliders turned off) since they eventually pull your eyes away from the real endpoint but I also think part of the reason people say they're hard to read is simply because they are not used to seeing them. Reading them comes with experience, just like reading any other mapping technique. And while they don't fit the music so well in most cases, there is the occasional time when they do.

I think an example of them being used nicely is in Border of Death [Hard] in the section that starts about 1/4 into the song. There's also one right before the end. A bad example would be, well, probably most burai sliders. They're usually not the right slider for the job.

I don't agree with banning anything outright if there is even the slightest chance of it being used appropriately. While their bad uses outnumber their good uses, I think burais and similar overlapping sliders should be allowed if used tastefully. Just mod away the bad ones during the ranking process. A guideline discouraging their use would be fine with me.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

pieguy1372 wrote:

The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Does this look obvious to you?
SPOILER

Care to spot the diference?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
The top one is probably an awfully-made, nonsentical slider that goes right, then back left and then right again just to confuse the player. That one should fall under the "common sense" rule.
The bottom one looks like a normal wiggle-slider, albeit a crappily-made one.

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually, wrong answer =P
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Luna wrote:

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
That's pretty much what we're trying to ban here. For example:

SPOILER

That is banned by this rule, since it does not have a clear path. You pretty much can't tell where on the slider path it goes back and forth.

You might say, "Oh, that's just common sense!" You'd be surprised at how often newer mappers go, "Hey, I'll do something that hasn't been done before; this retarded slider! \o/" Newer mappers often *don't* have "common sense" and hence need specifics.

As far as Sakura's examples go, the fact that you went "probably" and "looks like" shows that they aren't 100% readable, because then you would've been 100% confident. I'll prove her point more in a bit, to show how the border thing can be abused, even with peppy sliders.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Yes, but the rules draft also includes the rule that maps must be sight-readable on the first attempt, which basically already has this covered. Even if you don't think common sense is enough to be applied here, intentionally confusing sliders are not sight-readable (as I said before) and thus already banned. No real need to double up this rule.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Ekaru wrote:

Luna wrote:

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
That's pretty much what we're trying to ban here. For example:

SPOILER

That is banned by this rule, since it does not have a clear path. You pretty much can't tell where on the slider path it goes back and forth.

You might say, "Oh, that's just common sense!" You'd be surprised at how often newer mappers go, "Hey, I'll do something that hasn't been done before; this retarded slider! \o/" Newer mappers often *don't* have "common sense" and hence need specifics.

As far as Sakura's examples go, the fact that you went "probably" and "looks like" shows that they aren't 100% readable, because then you would've been 100% confident. I'll prove her point more in a bit, to show how the border thing can be abused, even with peppy sliders.
okay bring on the examples and plus this has been discussed in the non-public topic for this
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Luna wrote:

Yes, but the rules draft also includes the rule that maps must be sight-readable on the first attempt
Yes, but lots of people want that rule removed. And if that rule *does* get removed, then there's nothing to cover this kind of BS:

SPOILER

At a glance, it looks like it goes in a straight-forward path. However, closer inspection reveals that it goes back on itself at one point... and God forbid if you're playing with mm sliders.

Another one:

SPOILER

This one's much worse... and something that's entirely possible for a newer player to come up with when they're feeling "clever"(like the above one). Again, god forbid you're playing with mm sliders.

If your slider goes in a straightforward path, even if it overlaps itself, then most MAT/BAT are probably not going to raise a fuss since they won't find an issue with it. It's only when you do stupid shit, like Sakura's and my examples, that they'll go, "...No." I think that some of you are overreacting to this rule. :P
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
I don't think this rule should exist at all. It's so subjective that all cases have to be looked into individually.

Before you say "but we can't look every map in existance", as we may know, there are BATs and MATs, and almost certainly a map like that shouldn't be ranked.
Last edited by Mismagius , edited 1 time in total.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
how about something more practical
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius



Slidertracks like these are pretty much subjective, but it's pretty much fun and I don't see why not. I personally see the sliderpath, however some people argue they can't read it on MMsliders.

As I said, all cases should be looked into individually. Because, you know, you can't check all maps ever posted, but a map doesn't get ranked automatically, you know.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I play with mmsliders and have absolutely no problems reading the examples by BD even though they overlap themselves.
That's why I dislike this rule, it discourages almost all self-overlap etc when in most cases it's easily readable. That in combination with the sight-readability rule pretty much makes this redundant.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Also let's not forget about Larto's example.

mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Larto's example is fine since the intersections are complete.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

Larto's example is fine since the intersections are complete.
so what about the other BDs other examples
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Sakura Hana wrote:

pieguy1372 wrote:

The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Does this look obvious to you?
SPOILER

Care to spot the diference?
Well, one longer, one shorter, it's created by doing a zig-zag with the red waypoint. If not, it doesn't look clear more because the sliderstyle coder didn't want the slider generation to occupy more CPU than because it is 100% the mapper fault

SPOILER
it's not-so-hard(then some others) to sightread, why? look at the sliderticks, there are less sliderticks in the center and in some point. So... it's almost unplayable if it's fast, but it go left-right-left and start going left-right on the point with more ticks

SPOILER
somewhat difficult, for the fuck there aren't many ticks... after the diagonal part it go down, right (stop slight before the tick), left, up(there is a visible difference in the point it go up),right,down,right, but i could be wrong, because of the less sliderticks than the precedent.

Blue Dragon example are actually readable, because of the curves in the points it chabge direction are really visible. Theyn were good SliderArt too

Ekaru example were hard to sightread and to actually see, they were ugly too for me...
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

ouranhshc wrote:

so what about the other BDs other examples
I have no trouble reading them, either. They have a clear sliderpath. In fact, I'd say that they're both rankable under this rule; they have clear slider paths, and...

Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly
There's none of that here. They're perfectly rankable, really; don't forget the second part of the clause! Sure, you can't see the slider path where they touch on the first one, but they're not "covered up from being packed in too tightly", they're just touching each other, so they're easy to read and don't fall under this clause. As for the bottom one, it's easy to tell which way you're supposed to go.

EDIT: Remember; this rule has already existed for years (it just wasn't written). They're just trying to express it here in words the best they can, I'm pretty sure.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

ouranhshc wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Larto's example is fine since the intersections are complete.
so what about the other BDs other examples
Female should be fine since the wiggle has very little bearing on gameplay.
Male is bad because the borders impact.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Female should be fine since the wiggle has very little bearing on gameplay.
Male is bad because the borders impact.
actually there is a visible difference on the borders of the male circle so it is actually readable. ( and the shape do say it is linear )
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

ouranhshc wrote:

so what about the other BDs other examples
Female should be fine since the wiggle has very little bearing on gameplay.
Male is bad because the borders impact.
and border impacts are bad because?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
They can quickly turn into:


It isn't fair to expect players to read crescents/gradients to figure out what a slider does.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
sooo even if i can tell which way the slider goes on BD's example , its a bad slider because the borders touch?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
If it's very clear and obvious what it does, and difficult to change, then it should be allowed to pass.
That slider breaks the rule, but it can probably be allowed anyway.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
And the solution appears!
SPOILER
Top Slider:


Bottom Slider:
HakuNoKaemi got it completely wrong.
Luna got it half-right (basically mixed them up)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
That example doesn't actually matter since there's only one tick located somewhere in the middle. If you play it like a linear slider, you'll pass.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

If it's very clear and obvious what it does, and difficult to change, then it should be allowed to pass.
That slider breaks the rule, but it can probably be allowed anyway.
soo if a slider has a very clear path from start to end, does it really matter if the borders impact
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
The same is true for any rule. Border impact is a good judge of readability in most cases.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

The same is true for any rule. Border impact is a good judge of readability in most cases.
wouldn't there have to be some serious impact for that to be an issue
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
In my previous example, they only impacted by a small amount.
Think of it this way: It's impossible to make an unreadable slider if the borders never touch. If they do touch, it needs to be taken on a per-case basis.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

In my previous example, they only impacted by a small amount.
Think of it this way: It's impossible to make an unreadable slider if the borders never touch. If they do touch, it needs to be taken on a per-case basis.
guideline it then?
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I feel like I should point out that anything in a map to which the mapper would say, "This might be confusing," or for which one has to go through a hefty process of justification, there is a fucking problem. Think about the amount of time that a player would have in order to read a slider. They don't have the time to analyse and scrutinise a slider before the thing goes back on itself twenty times, only for the player to lose their place and wish cancer upon the mapper.

It's common sense, and if the slider isn't readable at a glance, then it should be changed.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

ouranhshc wrote:

guideline it then?
Remember, this has been a rule for years. It'll be enforced through the same mean as it always has; very lenient BATs.

The only difference is that it has finally been written down. *gasp* Seriously, dude, there's no reason to guideline something that has been a rule for, again, years with no real issues.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin

ouranhshc wrote:

mm201 wrote:

In my previous example, they only impacted by a small amount.
Think of it this way: It's impossible to make an unreadable slider if the borders never touch. If they do touch, it needs to be taken on a per-case basis.
guideline it then?
This. also add more:

A "hard-to-read" slider could be done with 2 reasons:
1. Mapper want that slider to be very difficult, very hard to read/predict.
2. Mapper have a musical sense to do a strange slider there.

For the first reason, obviously it should be banned, (hope we could already agree on this).
For the second one, it could come to a case-to-case thing, if none of the other people could share his feeling, he may be wrong. but use a rule for it is too much.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Sakura Hana wrote:

And the solution appears!
SPOILER
Top Slider:


Bottom Slider:
HakuNoKaemi got it completely wrong.
Luna got it half-right (basically mixed them up)
Hey, i did got them right as I said "zizaging with the red points" and it those wo case it zigzag vertically and horizontally.

Slider posted by mm have the gradients plus the ticks helping reading them, so they are judged "good"

i do think to divide it in:
a rule that disallow slider that pass on themself in a non-readable manner
a guideline that discourgare difficulty readable sliders
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn

NatsumeRin wrote:

ouranhshc wrote:

guideline it then?
This. also add more:

A "hard-to-read" slider could be done with 2 reasons:
1. Mapper want that slider to be very difficult, very hard to read/predict.
2. Mapper have a musical sense to do a strange slider there.

For the first reason, obviously it should be banned, (hope we could already agree on this).
For the second one, it could come to a case-to-case thing, if none of the other people could share his feeling, he may be wrong. but use a rule for it is too much.
I completely agree with this...
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I don't follow how the music could imply, "here, there belongs a confusing, unreadable slider." Odd slider shapes in general, yes, but there are many ways to make readable but odd sliders.
Slider arts can usually be made readable, but should be considered for exemption if they honestly can't. A slider expert should always be consulted before resorting to this.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9868

old example.

SPOILER

Such sliders works as a flower, no one will get break on it (because just hold and don't move is enough), it's well-formed than any other slider types imo (and 100% sure not only me)

SPOILER

In this slider, it's not set there to be hard. the first character "hi" is a long voice stay there, and the next "so" is where the slider really begins, (and "ya" at the slider's end)

For such cases, can you think of a better way to replace? If not:

mm201 wrote:

but should be considered for exemption if they honestly can't.
If exemption is there, it shouldn't be made a rule, right? Let's say, make "don't use slidertrick (such as burai sliders) to make your map harder" a rule, and "try avoid use such sliders" as a guideline.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
^ Can't believe I never thought to cite this map. Every weird slider in that map works. Seconding that entire post.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
@NatsumeRin
The Second Example
You would have to know the song in order to know that


@Ekaru
this is public discussion of the rules

@General

I think that this shouldn't be a rule because it would be broken in most cases than not, and this is also would be case-by-case. The slider would have to have an extreme overlap in order to be unrankable which is usually fixed through the modding, and if the mapper doesn't want to change it, the map just doesn't get ranked
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

ouranhshc wrote:

be unrankable which is usually fixed through the modding, and if the mapper doesn't want to change it, the map just doesn't get ranked
That happens with pretty much every other rule, so mentioning this here isn't really useful.

However this is so subjective that it shouldn't even be a rule and be something more like "Please make sliders that don't make the player go lolwtf"
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin

ouranhshc wrote:

@NatsumeRin
The Second Example
You would have to know the song in order to know that.
You don't need to know the song to play it (the shape already implies something), and after you know the song it plays better than any other types.

Edit:

Blue Dragon wrote:

However this is so subjective that it shouldn't even be a rule and be something more like "Please make sliders that don't make the player go lolwtf"
This is enough imo.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Blue Dragon wrote:

ouranhshc wrote:

be unrankable which is usually fixed through the modding, and if the mapper doesn't want to change it, the map just doesn't get ranked
That happens with pretty much every other rule, so mentioning this here isn't really useful.
true.

I wonder if anyone has thought about putting actual pictures of overlaps that should be avoided in the explanation.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

NatsumeRin wrote:

burai sliders
What is that? really, I don't know.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

eldnl wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

burai sliders
What is that? really, I don't know.
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=27721
EvianBubble
339 posts
Joined October 2009
EvianBubble
Since we're asking questions here, what are mm sliders? o_O I saw them mentioned on the first page and ... yea, what are they? D:
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Transparent sliders.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
The ones BD linked are mmsliders I think.

Blue Dragon wrote:


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