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Rule: Every slider must have a clear and visible path to...

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pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
The first of those sentences is just because that's fucking ugly.

The second is a huge questionmark and should be left as-is for more discussion.
Raging Bull
2,785 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I don't mind the really small 1/1 1/2 sliders that overlap. I mean you don't really need to know where it goes since the slider is so short anyways >_>
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Let's get controversial. I'd go even further and say that I enjoy me some burai sliders once in a while. I will concede that there is a bit of inherent difficulty in reading them (particularly with snaking sliders turned off) since they eventually pull your eyes away from the real endpoint but I also think part of the reason people say they're hard to read is simply because they are not used to seeing them. Reading them comes with experience, just like reading any other mapping technique. And while they don't fit the music so well in most cases, there is the occasional time when they do.

I think an example of them being used nicely is in Border of Death [Hard] in the section that starts about 1/4 into the song. There's also one right before the end. A bad example would be, well, probably most burai sliders. They're usually not the right slider for the job.

I don't agree with banning anything outright if there is even the slightest chance of it being used appropriately. While their bad uses outnumber their good uses, I think burais and similar overlapping sliders should be allowed if used tastefully. Just mod away the bad ones during the ranking process. A guideline discouraging their use would be fine with me.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

pieguy1372 wrote:

The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Does this look obvious to you?
SPOILER

Care to spot the diference?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
The top one is probably an awfully-made, nonsentical slider that goes right, then back left and then right again just to confuse the player. That one should fall under the "common sense" rule.
The bottom one looks like a normal wiggle-slider, albeit a crappily-made one.

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually, wrong answer =P
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Luna wrote:

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
That's pretty much what we're trying to ban here. For example:

SPOILER

That is banned by this rule, since it does not have a clear path. You pretty much can't tell where on the slider path it goes back and forth.

You might say, "Oh, that's just common sense!" You'd be surprised at how often newer mappers go, "Hey, I'll do something that hasn't been done before; this retarded slider! \o/" Newer mappers often *don't* have "common sense" and hence need specifics.

As far as Sakura's examples go, the fact that you went "probably" and "looks like" shows that they aren't 100% readable, because then you would've been 100% confident. I'll prove her point more in a bit, to show how the border thing can be abused, even with peppy sliders.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Yes, but the rules draft also includes the rule that maps must be sight-readable on the first attempt, which basically already has this covered. Even if you don't think common sense is enough to be applied here, intentionally confusing sliders are not sight-readable (as I said before) and thus already banned. No real need to double up this rule.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Ekaru wrote:

Luna wrote:

Unless the sliders are practically designed to confuse players, pretty much every reasonable slider shape is sight-readable. And intentional confusion should be banned anyway for being useless and aggravating fake difficulty.
That's pretty much what we're trying to ban here. For example:

SPOILER

That is banned by this rule, since it does not have a clear path. You pretty much can't tell where on the slider path it goes back and forth.

You might say, "Oh, that's just common sense!" You'd be surprised at how often newer mappers go, "Hey, I'll do something that hasn't been done before; this retarded slider! \o/" Newer mappers often *don't* have "common sense" and hence need specifics.

As far as Sakura's examples go, the fact that you went "probably" and "looks like" shows that they aren't 100% readable, because then you would've been 100% confident. I'll prove her point more in a bit, to show how the border thing can be abused, even with peppy sliders.
okay bring on the examples and plus this has been discussed in the non-public topic for this
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Luna wrote:

Yes, but the rules draft also includes the rule that maps must be sight-readable on the first attempt
Yes, but lots of people want that rule removed. And if that rule *does* get removed, then there's nothing to cover this kind of BS:

SPOILER

At a glance, it looks like it goes in a straight-forward path. However, closer inspection reveals that it goes back on itself at one point... and God forbid if you're playing with mm sliders.

Another one:

SPOILER

This one's much worse... and something that's entirely possible for a newer player to come up with when they're feeling "clever"(like the above one). Again, god forbid you're playing with mm sliders.

If your slider goes in a straightforward path, even if it overlaps itself, then most MAT/BAT are probably not going to raise a fuss since they won't find an issue with it. It's only when you do stupid shit, like Sakura's and my examples, that they'll go, "...No." I think that some of you are overreacting to this rule. :P
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
I don't think this rule should exist at all. It's so subjective that all cases have to be looked into individually.

Before you say "but we can't look every map in existance", as we may know, there are BATs and MATs, and almost certainly a map like that shouldn't be ranked.
Last edited by Mismagius , edited 1 time in total.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
how about something more practical
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius



Slidertracks like these are pretty much subjective, but it's pretty much fun and I don't see why not. I personally see the sliderpath, however some people argue they can't read it on MMsliders.

As I said, all cases should be looked into individually. Because, you know, you can't check all maps ever posted, but a map doesn't get ranked automatically, you know.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I play with mmsliders and have absolutely no problems reading the examples by BD even though they overlap themselves.
That's why I dislike this rule, it discourages almost all self-overlap etc when in most cases it's easily readable. That in combination with the sight-readability rule pretty much makes this redundant.
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Also let's not forget about Larto's example.

mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Larto's example is fine since the intersections are complete.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

Larto's example is fine since the intersections are complete.
so what about the other BDs other examples
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Sakura Hana wrote:

pieguy1372 wrote:

The last two sentences don't really have much of a point imo, there is no problem with the borders being covered up. It's always obvious which way the slider goes, and for short sliders it's generally impossible to make them big enough to satisfy this.

Suggestion: remove the last two sentences :o
Does this look obvious to you?
SPOILER

Care to spot the diference?
Well, one longer, one shorter, it's created by doing a zig-zag with the red waypoint. If not, it doesn't look clear more because the sliderstyle coder didn't want the slider generation to occupy more CPU than because it is 100% the mapper fault

SPOILER
it's not-so-hard(then some others) to sightread, why? look at the sliderticks, there are less sliderticks in the center and in some point. So... it's almost unplayable if it's fast, but it go left-right-left and start going left-right on the point with more ticks

SPOILER
somewhat difficult, for the fuck there aren't many ticks... after the diagonal part it go down, right (stop slight before the tick), left, up(there is a visible difference in the point it go up),right,down,right, but i could be wrong, because of the less sliderticks than the precedent.

Blue Dragon example are actually readable, because of the curves in the points it chabge direction are really visible. Theyn were good SliderArt too

Ekaru example were hard to sightread and to actually see, they were ugly too for me...
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

ouranhshc wrote:

so what about the other BDs other examples
I have no trouble reading them, either. They have a clear sliderpath. In fact, I'd say that they're both rankable under this rule; they have clear slider paths, and...

Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly
There's none of that here. They're perfectly rankable, really; don't forget the second part of the clause! Sure, you can't see the slider path where they touch on the first one, but they're not "covered up from being packed in too tightly", they're just touching each other, so they're easy to read and don't fall under this clause. As for the bottom one, it's easy to tell which way you're supposed to go.

EDIT: Remember; this rule has already existed for years (it just wasn't written). They're just trying to express it here in words the best they can, I'm pretty sure.
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