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[Proposal] Taiko ruleset draft (Specific)

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Topic Starter
Raiden
Hello!

After some time of discussions going here and there as well as valuable feedback from a handful of players, I'm here to announce what kind of rules and guidelines we agreed upon in this draft. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki.

Frequently Asked Questions

(read this in all cases before posting)
  1. Is it necessary to read the entire draft before commenting or asking questions?
    -> Yes, else you may complain about/mention things that are not related to this draft or are actually already present here.
  2. Is this the entire new Ranking Criteria? I feel like this is missing a lot of things...
    -> This is not the entire Ranking Criteria. This draft aims to be add to the rules and guidelines that end up on on the osu!Taiko-specific Ranking Criteria.
Before posting, please think through if what you want to add belongs into the Taiko-specific general draft or the general Ranking Criteria. Thanks!

To access the proposed draft, simply click on this link and you will be directed to it.

This draft will be up for community discussion until the 18th of September of 2017 00:00 UTC and will enter revision afterwards.

We are looking forward to your feedback!
Vulkin
i like it
_handholding
  1. I feel like the rule "1/2 usage is discouraged, but not disallowed" for Kantan should be a guideline instead, because reasons.
  2. Are 1/6s allowed in muzukashiis? granted I have not been around as much as the older members I have yet to see 1/6 objects in any muzukashii difficulty.
  3. Imho in futsuu it would go down better if the recommend hp was 6 or lower. I mostly see 6 or 7 in modern mapping
  4. similar to above, hp 7 or lower for Kantan
tatatat
Seems good. I'd like some more concrete things about deviating from the normal slider velocity like using 1.2 or 1.6 instead of 1.4, and non-meta spreads such as (Kantan, Ura Kantan, Futsuu, Ura Futsuu), (Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii), and whether or not very fast or teleporting SVs are allowed if they are done in an intuitive way.
frukoyurdakul
I have some things to say about the Muzukashii adjustment.

1/4 patterns should not be longer than five notes. Anything longer is likely to be too straining for intermediate players.

1/4 patterns with one or more color changes should be used sparingly. They should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns of this nature because the target audience of this difficulty level is not used to patterns of this complexity.

Combined those two, it's changing Muzukashii to Oni basically. In most of the cases, as far as I know, color changes on Muzukashii triplets are not allowed: especially not on 180 bpm or higher. If this kind of change is only on like ddddk or kkkkd with the usage of at least 2/1 break on each side of the pattern, it's understandable (since the guideline says that 5-plets are allowed). However, if ddkkd or kkddk is allowed, I think it's too much. So, this should be specified.

Try to insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 32/1 to 40/1 of continuous mapping.

Now, when you look at the Oni adjustment, on the guideline it says: "Try to insert at least 1 rest moment which is 1/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping." Mathematically speaking, the lower limit of the breaks on Oni are higher than Muzukashii. I think the Muzukashii one should be changed to 16/1 to 20/1 as well.

Above that, I'm fine with all the other stuff.
Nifty
wut do u mean I can't use 1/4 in my foot shoes

The ruleset looks aight. Anything that has to be said about the guidelines is null imo, since it's all completely situational and nothing that breaks guidelines necessarily breaks taiko rules.

Guidelines are more like a beginner's guide to not making a horrible map. I will start to link people this rc while modding now >:)
Zpmzpm
Only problem:



I recall seeing something like this in a ranked Oni anyways, don't know if it's still allowed or not. But if it's not, it should be
zigizigiefe
I have concerns about current draft.

For Muzukashii:
  1. Patterns on snaps faster than 1/6 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level.
  1. Even if it's mono pattern, advanced players couldn't keep up with that speed, especially ddkk players. They need to practice with 1/4 triplets first.
For Futsuu:
  1. Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.
  1. It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.
Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.
Electoz

Kantan wrote:

1/2 usage is discouraged, but not disallowed. If 1/2 is used, the pacing of the song must support this, the patterns themselves must be simplistic and followed by a rest moment. For songs which follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.
Should be a guideline instead, this one isn't "objective" enough to be a rule in the first place.

Difficulty Specific wrote:

If the beatmap follows a double or halved BPM style, Slider Velocity and all snapping variables in this ruleset need to be adjusted respectively.

Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/[x] are disallowed.
Can we have like a clear threshold on which scale of BPM we should "adjust respectively" (like osu! catch)? For instance if there's a song that has an ambiguous BPM on which snaps should be used then it'll become problematic since the rule will become subjective.
Firmatorenio

Futsuu wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.
I don't know, I very much like the usage of 1/4 in this set's futsuu. I really want to see more of such things encouraging players to learn to alternate even earlier, with such very simplistic doubles. And even though the set is sorta old now, I don't see a problem with its quality.
Topic Starter
Raiden
Here we go!

Kisses wrote:

  1. I feel like the rule "1/2 usage is discouraged, but not disallowed" for Kantan should be a guideline instead, because reasons.
  2. Are 1/6s allowed in muzukashiis? granted I have not been around as much as the older members I have yet to see 1/6 objects in any muzukashii difficulty.
  3. Imho in futsuu it would go down better if the recommend hp was 6 or lower. I mostly see 6 or 7 in modern mapping
  4. similar to above, hp 7 or lower for Kantan
1. Noted the first suggestion, as it has been suggested twice already. We initially added this as a rule because we aim to actually enforce the "simplistic" concept upon the 1/2 patterns, as well as making the rest moment around them compulsory.

2. With the feedback I received from Muzukashii players, moderate BPM will allow monocolor 1/6 quads in Muzukashii. That BPM threshold is up to the intersubjective criteria of the mappers as well as the Nominators. 140 is simply an orientative value.

3. and 4. Noted.

tatatat wrote:

Seems good. I'd like some more concrete things about deviating from the normal slider velocity like using 1.2 or 1.6 instead of 1.4, and non-meta spreads such as (Kantan, Ura Kantan, Futsuu, Ura Futsuu), (Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii), and whether or not very fast or teleporting SVs are allowed if they are done in an intuitive way.
It is already very concrete. We strongly encourage 1.4.

About those spreads, that is up to the General criteria, not this one.

About non-meta spreads, such mapping isn't as meta to be considered to the RC rework. osu!standard had Advanced defined because they have it as a very established mapping characteristic, while stuff like Ura Kantan isn't really a thing in osu!taiko at the moment.

"Very fast or teleporting SVs" that is in the General taiko criteria draft which is bubbled currently.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

I have some things to say about the Muzukashii adjustment.
Combined those two, it's changing Muzukashii to Oni basically. In most of the cases, as far as I know, color changes on Muzukashii triplets are not allowed: especially not on 180 bpm or higher. If this kind of change is only on like ddddk or kkkkd with the usage of at least 2/1 break on each side of the pattern, it's understandable (since the guideline says that 5-plets are allowed). However, if ddkkd or kkddk is allowed, I think it's too much. So, this should be specified.

Now, when you look at the Oni adjustment, on the guideline it says: "Try to insert at least 1 rest moment which is 1/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping." Mathematically speaking, the lower limit of the breaks on Oni are higher than Muzukashii. I think the Muzukashii one should be changed to 16/1 to 20/1 as well.

Above that, I'm fine with all the other stuff.
Strongly disagree on the "changing Muzukashii to Oni basically" part. With these changes, we aimed to grant Muzukashii mappers way more leniency to map, as the current status quo of Muzukashii mapping is incredibly restrictive. We were always told off when we used a quintuplet, a non-monocolor triplet, etc. This isn't changing to Oni, where those patterns are coming in relatively long chains, as well as containing multiple color changes. In Muzukashii, they will have to be used sparingly and with rest moments around them. These changes are also aimed for players: it is no secret that many players retire from the game after they see they cannot get the grasp from the jump Muzukashii → Oni. We think it's a step in the good direction.

About the 32/1, it was like that because the breaks were originally 2/1 instead of 3/2, so we forgot to change to 16 and 20. Noted for fixing.

Zpmzpm wrote:

Only problem:



I recall seeing something like this in a ranked Oni anyways, don't know if it's still allowed or not. But if it's not, it should be
That is most likely a very old Oni and we don't use those as reference. Furthermore, the nº of notes per pattern and difficulty are guidelines. If it is reasonable, it would be allowed.

zigizigiefe wrote:

I have concerns about current draft.

For Muzukashii:
Even if it's mono pattern, advanced players couldn't keep up with that speed, especially ddkk players. They need to practice with 1/4 triplets first.

For Futsuu:
It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.

Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.
I have to disagree there. I received all positive feedback on the 1/6 monocolor quads on moderate BPM maps. Even from ddkk players - regardless, the ruleset isn't tailored to any playstyle. It simply accounts for default settings.

Your Futsuu concern is not really a concern. It clearly says "Faster than 1/3". 1/3 isn't faster than 1/3 :P

Again, we decided to be more lenient on Kantan regarding 1/2 because of the feedback we got from players. All of them could hit simple 1/2 patterns.

Electoz wrote:

Should be a guideline instead, this one isn't "objective" enough to be a rule in the first place.

Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/[x] are disallowed.
Can we have like a clear threshold on which scale of BPM we should "adjust respectively" (like osu! catch)? For instance if there's a song that has an ambiguous BPM on which snaps should be used then it'll become problematic since the rule will become subjective.
Noted the first one, as shown in my response to Kisses.

As for the 2nd concern, the "rule" (which is simply a statement at the beginning of the draft) simply states that if you map something as double/half BPM, you must adjust accordingly. There is no BPM threshold (apart from that 180 one which is for guidelines), that statement simply urges you to adjust accordingly in case you map, say 120 BPM as 240.

Firmatorenio wrote:

I don't know, I very much like the usage of 1/4 in this set's futsuu. I really want to see more of such things encouraging players to learn to alternate even earlier, with such very simplistic doubles. And even though the set is sorta old now, I don't see a problem with its quality.
This would not encourage players to alternate, this would simply give them the bad habit of mashing through them (this is the feedback I got from players). So for the moment, I do think setting the upper limit to 1/3 is fairly appropriate.

Thank you kindly for your feedback guys :)
Tyistiana
Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-
If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.
Stefan

Futsuu Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.
I can recall for low(er) BPM songs that 1/4 snap can be used, it's a rare example but I saw stuff like this before, working well if it's given by the song and conditions. I wouldn't encourage it but not completely disallow it.

Tyistiana wrote:

Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-
If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.
I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.
_handholding

Stefan wrote:

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.
I agree with Stefan
Nardoxyribonucleic

Tyistiana wrote:

Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-
If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.
As Stefan mentioned, something like kkkkD would be acceptable for this level of difficulty as the overall complexity of 1/4 patterns in an Oni is significantly lower than that of an Inner Oni. Although I am not a fan of such an arrangement, not disallowing that could promote better transition.

Stefan wrote:

Futsuu Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.
I can recall for low(er) BPM songs that 1/4 snap can be used, it's a rare example but I saw stuff like this before, working well if it's given by the song and conditions. I wouldn't encourage it but not completely disallow it.
"Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed" actually means anything faster than 1/3 notes cannot be used. The example you gave is in fact snapped as 5/4, which is obviously slower than 1/3.
zigizigiefe

Raiden wrote:

Here we go!

zigizigiefe wrote:

For Futsuu:
It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.

Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.
I have to disagree there. I received all positive feedback on the 1/6 monocolor quads on moderate BPM maps. Even from ddkk players - regardless, the ruleset isn't tailored to any playstyle. It simply accounts for default settings.
Your Futsuu concern is not really a concern. It clearly says "Faster than 1/3". 1/3 isn't faster than 1/3 :P


Oops, I couldn't explain my opinions clearly I guess. First off, thanks for your feedback Raiden. If this part of the draft means "1/3 doublets may be used in Futsuu" as I understood, it should be allowed for songs like that. It has only 1/3 and 1/6 snapped notes in itself and the mapper can't use 1/4 patterns for that song and others like that. So the mapper had to use 1/3 snapped doublets. That's why I mean this rule should be allowed for songs which just have 1/3 and 1/6 snapped notes.

Nice discussion there, by the way :)
Okoratu
Hello i fixed the 32/1 ~ 40/1 to be halved

the "should" thing is in rules of kantan because the rest moment it involves isn't optional but obligatory

I'm for allowing 1/3 doubles even if the song is not commonly swing in futsuu as by virtue of fixing spread to muzu which currently allows 1/6 if stuff's slow because that seems like a good way to balance

even if its super rare just like 1/6 for muzu will be

i still like the 1/4 double in senjou no aria futsuu though
):
conflicted on that point myself as the map itself can't be reasonably claimed to be half bpm but more closely to what 1/3 would be on 180 if it was allowed which it currently isnt

uh

ramble off
Topic Starter
Raiden
If the song itself is a 6/8 swing song (also known in osu as common 4/4 meter snapped to 1/3rd) that is the exception of the rule. So you could say the mapper treats 1/3 as 1/2 in this case.

Also agreed with Okorin. Seems fair enough to allow 1/3 in Futsuu considering 1/6 would be allowed in Muzukashii with the current proposal.
Nardoxyribonucleic
What Okorin said. As these cases are relatively rare, apply reasonable judgment for the appropriateness of 1/3 notes in Futsuu and 1/6 notes in Muzukashii.
Tyistiana
Hi again, my concerns still continue.

Stefan wrote:

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.
Okay, that's right.

But if the three-note pattern comes, like kkD
Does it legit?
Due to three-notes pattern, we will have a time to concentrate to the finisher note less than 5-notes pattern.
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