wut do u mean I can't use 1/4 in my foot shoes

The ruleset looks aight. Anything that has to be said about the guidelines is null imo, since it's all completely situational and nothing that breaks guidelines necessarily breaks taiko rules.

Guidelines are more like a beginner's guide to not making a horrible map. I will start to link people this rc while modding now >:)

Only problem:



I recall seeing something like this in a ranked Oni anyways, don't know if it's still allowed or not. But if it's not, it should be

I have concerns about current draft.

For Muzukashii:

1. Even if it's mono pattern, advanced players couldn't keep up with that speed, especially ddkk players. They need to practice with 1/4 triplets first.

For Futsuu:

1. It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.

Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.

Kantan wrote:

1/2 usage is discouraged, but not disallowed. If 1/2 is used, the pacing of the song must support this, the patterns themselves must be simplistic and followed by a rest moment. For songs which follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.

Should be a guideline instead, this one isn't "objective" enough to be a rule in the first place.

Difficulty Specific wrote:

If the beatmap follows a double or halved BPM style, Slider Velocity and all snapping variables in this ruleset need to be adjusted respectively.

Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/[x] are disallowed.

Can we have like a clear threshold on which scale of BPM we should "adjust respectively" (like osu! catch)? For instance if there's a song that has an ambiguous BPM on which snaps should be used then it'll become problematic since the rule will become subjective.

Futsuu wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.

I don't know, I very much like the usage of 1/4 in this set's futsuu. I really want to see more of such things encouraging players to learn to alternate even earlier, with such very simplistic doubles. And even though the set is sorta old now, I don't see a problem with its quality.

Here we go!

Kisses wrote:

1. I feel like the rule "1/2 usage is discouraged, but not disallowed" for Kantan should be a guideline instead, because reasons.
   
2. Are 1/6s allowed in muzukashiis? granted I have not been around as much as the older members I have yet to see 1/6 objects in any muzukashii difficulty.
   
3. Imho in futsuu it would go down better if the recommend hp was 6 or lower. I mostly see 6 or 7 in modern mapping
   
4. similar to above, hp 7 or lower for Kantan

1. Noted the first suggestion, as it has been suggested twice already. We initially added this as a rule because we aim to actually enforce the "simplistic" concept upon the 1/2 patterns, as well as making the rest moment around them compulsory.

2. With the feedback I received from Muzukashii players, moderate BPM will allow monocolor 1/6 quads in Muzukashii. That BPM threshold is up to the intersubjective criteria of the mappers as well as the Nominators. 140 is simply an orientative value.

3. and 4. Noted.

tatatat wrote:

Seems good. I'd like some more concrete things about deviating from the normal slider velocity like using 1.2 or 1.6 instead of 1.4, and non-meta spreads such as (Kantan, Ura Kantan, Futsuu, Ura Futsuu), (Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii), and whether or not very fast or teleporting SVs are allowed if they are done in an intuitive way.

It is already very concrete. We strongly encourage 1.4.

About those spreads, that is up to the General criteria, not this one.

About non-meta spreads, such mapping isn't as meta to be considered to the RC rework. osu!standard had Advanced defined because they have it as a very established mapping characteristic, while stuff like Ura Kantan isn't really a thing in osu!taiko at the moment.

"Very fast or teleporting SVs" that is in the General taiko criteria draft which is bubbled currently.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

I have some things to say about the Muzukashii adjustment.
Combined those two, it's changing Muzukashii to Oni basically. In most of the cases, as far as I know, color changes on Muzukashii triplets are not allowed: especially not on 180 bpm or higher. If this kind of change is only on like ddddk or kkkkd with the usage of at least 2/1 break on each side of the pattern, it's understandable (since the guideline says that 5-plets are allowed). However, if ddkkd or kkddk is allowed, I think it's too much. So, this should be specified.

Now, when you look at the Oni adjustment, on the guideline it says: "Try to insert at least 1 rest moment which is 1/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping." Mathematically speaking, the lower limit of the breaks on Oni are higher than Muzukashii. I think the Muzukashii one should be changed to 16/1 to 20/1 as well.

Above that, I'm fine with all the other stuff.

Strongly disagree on the "changing Muzukashii to Oni basically" part. With these changes, we aimed to grant Muzukashii mappers way more leniency to map, as the current status quo of Muzukashii mapping is incredibly restrictive. We were always told off when we used a quintuplet, a non-monocolor triplet, etc. This isn't changing to Oni, where those patterns are coming in relatively long chains, as well as containing multiple color changes. In Muzukashii, they will have to be used sparingly and with rest moments around them. These changes are also aimed for players: it is no secret that many players retire from the game after they see they cannot get the grasp from the jump Muzukashii → Oni. We think it's a step in the good direction.

About the 32/1, it was like that because the breaks were originally 2/1 instead of 3/2, so we forgot to change to 16 and 20. Noted for fixing.

Zpmzpm wrote:

Only problem:



I recall seeing something like this in a ranked Oni anyways, don't know if it's still allowed or not. But if it's not, it should be

That is most likely a very old Oni and we don't use those as reference. Furthermore, the nº of notes per pattern and difficulty are guidelines. If it is reasonable, it would be allowed.

zigizigiefe wrote:

I have concerns about current draft.

For Muzukashii:
Even if it's mono pattern, advanced players couldn't keep up with that speed, especially ddkk players. They need to practice with 1/4 triplets first.

For Futsuu:
It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.

Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.

I have to disagree there. I received all positive feedback on the 1/6 monocolor quads on moderate BPM maps. Even from ddkk players - regardless, the ruleset isn't tailored to any playstyle. It simply accounts for default settings.

Your Futsuu concern is not really a concern. It clearly says "Faster than 1/3". 1/3 isn't faster than 1/3

Again, we decided to be more lenient on Kantan regarding 1/2 because of the feedback we got from players. All of them could hit simple 1/2 patterns.

Electoz wrote:

Should be a guideline instead, this one isn't "objective" enough to be a rule in the first place.

Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/[x] are disallowed.

Can we have like a clear threshold on which scale of BPM we should "adjust respectively" (like osu! catch)? For instance if there's a song that has an ambiguous BPM on which snaps should be used then it'll become problematic since the rule will become subjective.

Noted the first one, as shown in my response to Kisses.

As for the 2nd concern, the "rule" (which is simply a statement at the beginning of the draft) simply states that if you map something as double/half BPM, you must adjust accordingly. There is no BPM threshold (apart from that 180 one which is for guidelines), that statement simply urges you to adjust accordingly in case you map, say 120 BPM as 240.

Firmatorenio wrote:

I don't know, I very much like the usage of 1/4 in this set's futsuu. I really want to see more of such things encouraging players to learn to alternate even earlier, with such very simplistic doubles. And even though the set is sorta old now, I don't see a problem with its quality.

This would not encourage players to alternate, this would simply give them the bad habit of mashing through them (this is the feedback I got from players). So for the moment, I do think setting the upper limit to 1/3 is fairly appropriate.

Thank you kindly for your feedback guys

Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-

If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.

Futsuu Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.

I can recall for low(er) BPM songs that 1/4 snap can be used, it's a rare example but I saw stuff like this before, working well if it's given by the song and conditions. I wouldn't encourage it but not completely disallow it.

Tyistiana wrote:

Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-

If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.

Stefan wrote:

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.

I agree with Stefan

Tyistiana wrote:

Hi, still have some concerns about Finisher rules.

Muzukashii Rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

Oni Rules wrote:

-

If I was right, you're talking something like kkkkD
If no, I'm sorry ;w;

But if yes, I still think that this rules should be add on Oni too.
I just think that it's too complex for the target audience of this difficulty level. I don't believe that Oni player will be able to hit the finisher after 1/4 patterns.
A performance of Oni and Inner Oni player are differently huge, in my opinion.

As Stefan mentioned, something like kkkkD would be acceptable for this level of difficulty as the overall complexity of 1/4 patterns in an Oni is significantly lower than that of an Inner Oni. Although I am not a fan of such an arrangement, not disallowing that could promote better transition.

Stefan wrote:

Futsuu Rules wrote:

Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed. These patterns are too complex for beginner players.

I can recall for low(er) BPM songs that 1/4 snap can be used, it's a rare example but I saw stuff like this before, working well if it's given by the song and conditions. I wouldn't encourage it but not completely disallow it.

"Patterns on snaps faster than 1/3 are disallowed" actually means anything faster than 1/3 notes cannot be used. The example you gave is in fact snapped as 5/4, which is obviously slower than 1/3.

Raiden wrote:

Here we go!

zigizigiefe wrote:

For Futsuu:
It is appropriate but in my opinion, it should be allowed for only songs which have only 1/3 snapped notes.

Also, 1/2 usage in Kantan makes harder. Beginner players have to learn by playing Kantans which have clear and simple structure, after all.

I have to disagree there. I received all positive feedback on the 1/6 monocolor quads on moderate BPM maps. Even from ddkk players - regardless, the ruleset isn't tailored to any playstyle. It simply accounts for default settings.

Your Futsuu concern is not really a concern. It clearly says "Faster than 1/3". 1/3 isn't faster than 1/3


Oops, I couldn't explain my opinions clearly I guess. First off, thanks for your feedback Raiden. If this part of the draft means "1/3 doublets may be used in Futsuu" as I understood, it should be allowed for songs like that. It has only 1/3 and 1/6 snapped notes in itself and the mapper can't use 1/4 patterns for that song and others like that. So the mapper had to use 1/3 snapped doublets. That's why I mean this rule should be allowed for songs which just have 1/3 and 1/6 snapped notes.

Nice discussion there, by the way

Hello i fixed the 32/1 ~ 40/1 to be halved

the "should" thing is in rules of kantan because the rest moment it involves isn't optional but obligatory

I'm for allowing 1/3 doubles even if the song is not commonly swing in futsuu as by virtue of fixing spread to muzu which currently allows 1/6 if stuff's slow because that seems like a good way to balance

even if its super rare just like 1/6 for muzu will be

i still like the 1/4 double in senjou no aria futsuu though
):
conflicted on that point myself as the map itself can't be reasonably claimed to be half bpm but more closely to what 1/3 would be on 180 if it was allowed which it currently isnt

uh

ramble off

If the song itself is a 6/8 swing song (also known in osu as common 4/4 meter snapped to 1/3rd) that is the exception of the rule. So you could say the mapper treats 1/3 as 1/2 in this case.

Also agreed with Okorin. Seems fair enough to allow 1/3 in Futsuu considering 1/6 would be allowed in Muzukashii with the current proposal.

What Okorin said. As these cases are relatively rare, apply reasonable judgment for the appropriateness of 1/3 notes in Futsuu and 1/6 notes in Muzukashii.

Hi again, my concerns still continue.

Stefan wrote:

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.

Okay, that's right.

But if the three-note pattern comes, like kkD
Does it legit?
Due to three-notes pattern, we will have a time to concentrate to the finisher note less than 5-notes pattern.

@Tyistiana
kind kdkkD, kkdkD and the opposite colors are still acceptable though its a bit hard. but pattern thats really hard are notes that close toward the big notes which its on same colors e.g ddD/ddddD, kdD/ddkdD and the opposite colors. I mean something like xdK/xxxdK are still fine at stream but xdD/xxxdD its something really hard to hit if high bpm. depends on amount of pattern, sometimes an evens pattern are hard to hit e.g xxxX
slow bpm still easier with kind stream+finisher

conclusion: if the colors of normal notes and big notes are contrast, it would be fine.

Tyistiana wrote:

Hi again, my concerns still continue.

Stefan wrote:

I feel that kkkkD is perfectly acceptable by the simplity of the pattern for Oni difficulties. I'd avoid that idea for stuff like kdkkD, simply because kdkkd itself is harder than kkkkd/kkkkD.

Okay, that's right.

But if the three-note pattern comes, like kkD
Does it legit?
Due to three-notes pattern, we will have a time to concentrate to the finisher note less than 5-notes pattern.

I'm an index finger player, and since I play taiko, I always struggled with the finishers which comes after a 1/4 stream. But, in the meantime (maybe it's because of the common usage) I started to hit more comfortably to ddddK or kkkkD easier than ddK or kkD. If the default playstyle is accepted as "kddk" with 4 fingers, I can't judge if they are equally hard but in my case, 1/4 triplets with finishers are harder. So, I can say that 1/4 simple 5-plets should be acceptable but triplets shouldn't be allowed because they are simply a burst pattern with a harder end.

Secondly, I still think that not allowing ddddD but allowing ddddK in any higher difficulty is weird. I'm not talking about Oni level this time, but in higher difficulties. I think that these kind of monocolor finishers should be acceptable as well. I'm not saying that to struggle the players which use other playstyles, but equalizing the finisher rule.

In conclusion: On Oni level, kkkkD or ddddK should be acceptable, ddK or kkD should not. And, monocolor finishers should be acceptable as well in the higher difficulties. Just because they are "ridiculously hard to hit" doesn't mean that it should be prevented because, for example, I can hit ddddD easier than ddddK.

Hey guys, finisher-related issues are resolved in the Taiko General draft...

myself wrote:

Before posting, please think through if what you want to add belongs into the Taiko-specific general draft or the general Ranking Criteria. Thanks!

Please, please don't bring up issues that have already been resolved
And yes, with the current General draft, 1/4 finishers of the same color as well as mid-stream finishers are allowed.

@fruko: RC does not account for playstyles, only for default settings
@the rest: stuff like ddK and kkD 1/4 are accounted for in the Taiko Ruleset Draft (General). We can however do extra testing to see if it is acceptable within the Oni boundaries and add a guideline discouraging them accordingly.

How do approval/marathon maps fall into the difficulty spread when they usually don't have a full spread and instead only have one difficulty and its hard to pinpoint what difficulty level that diff falls into. Marathon maps may have unique density and rest moments while being an easier difficulty. They also may contain sections of drastically different intensity, or even entirely different songs, calling for different representation of the intensity of the section / song through fluctuating difficulty. okay I think I'm gonna go to sleep before I make my question more confusing.

Your question is not confusing... it simply isn't related to anything here as Okorin responded. Please only concerns related to taiko specific stuff in this thread.

Uh it doesnt though?

You determine the difficulty level by figuring out which guidelines on the difficulty specific criteria they break.

If your diff breaks all the guidelines of a Kantan most certainly isnt a Kantan, move on to the next diff and do the same until you found the difficulty level that your map belongs into.

How is this related to anything though?

Okorin wrote:

Uh it doesnt though?

You determine the difficulty level by figuring out which guidelines on the difficulty specific criteria they break.

If your diff breaks all the guidelines of a Kantan most certainly isnt a Kantan, move on to the next diff and do the same until you found the difficulty level that your map belongs into.

How is this related to anything though?

Thanks! I was really just wondering how to determine the difficulty level of a difficulty. c: But tired tata couldn't get that across.

Closing for round 1 revision! Thanks for your feedback.

We're back! This was fast.

List of changes:

Kantan (rule rewording)
to

Original draft is updated in the OP.

Since it was only one thing changed, let's hold this up until Monday, 18th of September, 2017 00:00 UTC. We are getting closer!

hikikochan mentioned that preceding an 1/2 pattern and then including it into normal patterning (like the current alternative suggests) is significantly harder than the other way around, and i actually agree to that - more opinions would be appreciated

I also think that finishing with a hard pattern then giving a rest moment to catch up is significantly easier than having a hard pattern at the beginning and expecting the player to keep up.

However we had some dissonant opinions within ourselves so we came to a middle way and now we're asking for further feedback on the matter. It would be greatly appreciated!

As of today, the draft has been officially appended to the the osu!taiko section of the Ranking Criteria and can be found here!

Since this involves a lot of changes, we'll have the 6 month rule:

1. maps that are submitted from this post onward will be handled according to the new criteria.
2. maps that were already submitted may be handled according to the old criteria for the coming 6 months.

Once 6 months have passed, all maps will have to comply with this ruleset regardless of submission status!

thread moved because finalized amendment