In other words, short of any kind of limiting disability, do you think different people have different hard ceilings of skill, or can anyone be the best if they try hard enough and for long enough, regardless of how long it takes?

I think that anyone can get good, but the ease of which they can do that depends on talent. And since people who have "talent" need less time to get to the same level, they can progress even further

t/504759

This is a good read.

Sandy Hoey wrote:

I think that anyone can get good, but the ease of which they can do that depends on talent.

Sure, I'm not arguing that. It's clear that some people get better at certain things much faster than others.

Sandy Hoey wrote:

And since people who have "talent" need less time to get to the same level, they can progress even further

But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?

Philosofikal wrote:

But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?

I think if we are talking about the average person, disabilities (physical and mental) aside, everyone can get to the same point. It just gets infinitely more challenging for the "untalented" person a lot faster than the "talented" person. Although, I don't think they will ever catch up if the "talented" person put in the same effort

I agree with Sandy.

Philosofikal wrote:

But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?

Unless there's a physical disability then no, i don't think there's anything actually stopping anyone. Also I don't think there is any shared limit... this reminds me of a video i watched that explained why Olympic records will always be broken. The only "true" ceiling IMO is the max score possible on a song. And since time is not infinite it's a bit of a moot point to wonder if everyone could be as good as Cookiezi or even much better. I mean, I'm slowly improving at this game myself, but I doubt I will ever spend enough time on it to ever find out if I could be a pro at it. And I think that's the case for most people. This is where talent comes in; some people just pick the game up a lot more quickly (relatively, it still takes months/years) than others

I wouldn't consider myself particularly talented but I have a few friends on here who have been playing much longer than myself but still play 2*-3* maps just because that's where they have the most fun. It's probably safe to say given infinite time they might reach greatness, but time is not infinite.

I personally believe talent is a thing but people have different amounts of talent in various things. For instance look at my playcount/rank/pp for both Taiko & Standard. My playcount in standard is ridiculously higher yet I have a lot more PP in Taiko, am a higher rank, and can pass/FC much higher SR songs. Sure SR/Rank/PP don't mean everything especially when comparing between different modes, but I think it is safe to say I was "more talented" in Taiko than Standard. My weakness in standard has always been my aim, which is why most my top plays are stream based maps. This suits me much better to Taiko as there is no aim component.

Everyone can peform well given enough practice.

Talent (imo) doesn't exist and is in a way the same as "magic" was back then.
You see something you can't explain yourself (someone getting better faster / already being at a decent lvl with almost no time) and then you just assume that this person is "just talented"

It's an excuse the majority of the people make so they don't have to invest time in a certain thing. It's probably to save yourself the time and probably an unconscious fear of "wasting time", being afraid of not being good even with a lot of time spent.
So by just declaring it as an unchangable variable (talent) that you can't do anything against nor change it, you can just let it go and not (presumably) waste your time / protect yourself from disappointment.



The same goes for "luck" when maybe you were little and still had dreams about being an actor, a novelist or whatever and all the people tell you. "Million people try, but you gotta have luck to get discovered / published etc).
Again people use a variable of which noone knows if it actually exists, but since it's so convenient we just use it as an excuse to not even try.
The funny thing is, yes there are millions of people who want to be a certain thing but almost NOONE tries because they are afraid of failure, and the thought of "everyone wants to be it" is so scary, amplifying the fear of failure, that most people will just stop pursuing it, actually never even giving it a chance.




Some people are just better at certain things or at improving (like in Osu!) because the conditions for them are different yours are which leads to a discrepancy at which both of you improve. Since you don't know that thing you just assume it must be luck or talent in order to not feel bad about your own progress.

Chances are that person might just have some sort of music experience, played another rhythm game before, learned to "learn", etc etc. There are just so many things that influence your "starting skill" and the rate of improvement that you can't possibly know and therefor 99% of the people will just call it talent and be done with it.



If you want to call certain prior experiences "talent", then yes, it exists, but as talent as in the "better genes"? No, doesn't exist.
Anyone can get anywhere if they would just be willing to put the time in AND be serious about it.
If you just play osu! casually and don't really care about improving or focusing on your mistake, the same as in other skills, you won't improve or won't improve as much as someone who is driven by the will to improve and actively looks for his mistakes + puts the time in.


Most people don't even really try because the main fear is the fear of failure. The thought of putting in several years of work and then not being where you want to be is quite scary so it's understandable that the vast majority of population will just look for excuses to not face the challenge (because they are simply afraid of failing / wasting so much time of their life)



Osu! is like drawing. There is no magic trick or condition you have to meet to be good, yet people will ALWAYS ask if there is a certain tip or trick to it, if it is "hard" to learn or they'll just tell themselves "I just can't draw, I'm not cut out for it" and move on.
I guess many people also get influenced by watching the pros play and thinking:"There's no way I could ever be that fast / precise, it must be just him being talented" (Or just watching any other person being very skilled at a profession like people who are crazy good at drawing and just fart out those HQ pictures while you can't even draw manga eyes properly)


We just like to look for excuses, like a certain "trick" we don't know, "It must be the hardware / I need a tablet", luck etc etc, you name it.


You'll see it in EVERY other skill, the same questions, the same answers.

"What kind of equipment do you use?" (It must be the equipment I'm still this bad / can't do it)
"How did you get so good?" Obviously he just kept at it. How else?
"Is there some trick to it / certain thing related to the skill". Most likely no


People always assume that there is this one variable they are missing and that this is the reason they suck / aren't there yet and will always ask any questions, and if they got all the equipment and still suck you will probably hear "talent / luck" as they run out of excuses as to why they aren't good enough yet.
This goes for osu!, drawing, any instrument and everything else. You will always see those questions where people aren't actually interested in the equipment or whatever, they are just looking for discrepancies in whatever it is so they can tell themselves that THIS must be the reason they're bad / can't do it.



TL;DR
Talent doesn't exist.

That's a fantastic answer, Rayne.

johnmedina999 wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/504759

This is a good read.

It was a good read, but the thread was poisoned from the word go because the OP assumed they already knew the answer and spent the whole thread evangelizing with poor data and arguments instead of fostering a debate.

Hmm I'm pretty sure not everyone can achieve the same level. I mean learning something comes down to training and shaping the neural-network that is your brain, why would we assume that every brain is the same at birth?

tomden wrote:

Hmm I'm pretty sure not everyone can achieve the same level. I mean learning something comes down to training and shaping the neural-network that is your brain, why would we assume that every brain is the same at birth?

Agreed, Talent is generally a way to summarize various uncontrollable facts about oneself. For instance people have different IQ's which state your ability to learn. This is something that is based on genetics and can't be controlled. Now everyone can become more knowledgeable with effort spent but the amount of effort needed for a person with low IQ is much more than that of high IQ. I remember people back in school that worked hard, studied a lot and were always there for tutoring who just didn't do well because they weren't very smart. I was an extremely lazy kid in school and did about as much homework was required and never studied. I graduated with a 3.8, most of my B's were from things like not doing homework as I didn't see the point as I understood the subject matter without needing to practice it.

That being said sports have been the exact opposite for me. I could put in long hours of practice and while I certainly got better I wasn't improving at the same rate as other people. Maybe I just had the wrong mindset but I truly believe my lack of athleticism comes down to my genes as no one in my family is athletic either.

IQ is of course the most commonly recognized measurement of natural skill/talent but I truly believe this is attributed to other things as well. Focusing this back on Osu, I played band in middle/high school and was very good at it despite not practicing a lot outside of class. This is probably why rythmn comes more naturally to me and gamemodes like Taiko or stream maps in standard are easy. While I did practice sports a lot as a kid (played Tennis and Soccer mainly) I was never very good at either due to lack of good reaction time. I think this can somewhat translate into why the aim component in standard is so hard for me.

In short yes I think talent exists, just talent is an overly broad term. I also am using it not to just complain about shortcomings or make excuses but also to explain why I am good at the things I am good at. Do I put effort in? Well yes, but no more so than other things and yet the outcome in some areas is way higher than others making me to believe I have more natural ability (aka talent) in some things than I do others

Like natural talent vs. talent. 2 different things

Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.

Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.

What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.

Do you believe in talent?

Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.

I Give Up wrote:

Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.

I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?

Taiga wrote:

My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles.

That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

Philosofikal wrote:

In other words, short of any kind of limiting disability, do you think different people have different hard ceilings of skill, or can anyone be the best if they try hard enough and for long enough, regardless of how long it takes?

Mentality matters more.

That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

No.

First off - my left hand is weak due several shit situations irl.

Second - I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way (including weird hand positions on keyboard). osu was just a trigger. It ended up on 7 months inactivity in osu and any rhythm game. I bet if i could do same shit for right hand, it would end same way. You don't imagine how much pain it is to not being able to move your hand properly, not being able to sleep due how much pain is produced by stupid carpal tunnel - that's why I have so much laugh at all this noobs claiming "hey, I have RSI". This stupid cunts doesn't even know how painfull it is.

Third - All tapping what i do, I use fingers, only fingers. Whenever i use wrist to "tap faster", it ends up being a nightmare for next hours. Why? Read "Second".

I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level, deal with it. Doesn't matter how much talented i could be - there is a limit where my progression stop.

Don't tell me about "excuses" because I am probably last one here who makes one.

[Taiga] wrote:

Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.

Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.

What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.

There is people in the world playing guitar using the foot after a hand accident and living from it. There is also people what broke a nail and leave the job.
It's easier to say genetics make him better than me. Instead say i could have worked more to get that far.

Philosofikal wrote:

I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?

Why would only the learning rate be affected and not the skill ceiling? It's all about how fast the brain can generate outputs given certain inputs, a neural network can be continiously trained but at some point addaptions won't result in an improvement and the performance limit is reached, this limit is determined the topology of the neural networks created in your brain and differs from person to person. Another limiting factor is the speed it takes the input signals to start being processed and the speed at which generated output results in the corresponding action, which again is different for everyone and does decrease when people age.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.

Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.

What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.

There is people in the world playing guitar using the foot after a hand accident and living from it. There is also people what broke a nail and leave the job.
It's easier to say genetics make him better than me. Instead say i could have worked more to get that far.

You never stop being amusing.

Keep it going bro, do you ever read wtf are you writing?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Taiga] wrote:

you never stop being amusing.

Keep it going bro, do you ever read wtf are you writing?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

If you are going to post in my thread can you keep it civil, please? I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked. This is a good discussion in G&R for once and I don't need you to fuck it up by being a shitposting mongoloid.

That being said, in response to your previous post, why don't you tap+x? That type of playstyle has a far lower body load than any other style - it's the go-to for players with RSI like Azer.

[Taiga] wrote:

That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

No.

First off - my left hand is weak due several shit situations irl.

Second - I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way (including weird hand positions on keyboard). osu was just a trigger. It ended up on 7 months inactivity in osu and any rhythm game. I bet if i could do same shit for right hand, it would end same way. You don't imagine how much pain it is to not being able to move your hand properly, not being able to sleep due how much pain is produced by stupid carpal tunnel - that's why I have so much laugh at all this noobs claiming "hey, I have RSI". This stupid cunts doesn't even know how painfull it is.

Third - All tapping what i do, I use fingers, only fingers. Whenever i use wrist to "tap faster", it ends up being a nightmare for next hours. Why? Read "Second".

I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level, deal with it. Doesn't matter how much talented i could be - there is a limit where my progression stop.

Don't tell me about "excuses" because I am probably last one here who makes one.

Sounds like you got my point the wrong way.
Obviously actual physical (and mental) disabilities will make you progress slower or hinder any ability to play / obtain a certain level of speed.
I was speaking about this mystery of "natural talent" / "being born that way" so to say.

It should be common sense that you can't play well or can't play at all if you have no hands,(well maybe some people could actually do it) are severely or even slightly injured. That goes without saying.
You not being able to progress in osu!, as you said yourself, is due to you being injured and not because all other people around you are "gifted" (in the sense of talent, not related to health) or certain individuals being gifted, it's just the situation that's holding you back.

I don't really feel like believing in talent but I have to in some way
Stuff like osu!mania, where players from beatmania and other rhythm games with lanes can integrate into easily, have a much easier time and thus their talent in previous experiences bring them high up on the ranking charts. https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4477497 people like this guy are just gods and hes just that good

On the other hand, sometimes talent doesnt matter because your peripherals/setup may be shit.
I've had to use a thumb+pinky playstyle since I had a disability in ny left hand and couldnt stream with index+middle.
I slowly climbed the ranks but after I changed to this 120g mouse I couldn't even fc a 4.7* song, whoch is kinda tragic since I'm at the 21k range

I just wanted to add a little anecdote. A month or so ago I had a few friends come over. 2 of them had never heard of osu before, so I let them both play the tutorial (you, know the map the game comes with). One of my friends got like a B? I think on his first try. My other friend tried 6 times in a row and failed the song every single time. He has a reputation for being a bit of a klutz so i wasn't too surprised honestly (regardless we all laughed at him xD).

But I've been exposed to rhythm analyzing for years through choir and piano, and my other friend who did well also was in a band for some time. My friend who failed miserably has never touched an instrument in his life. Also I recently learned a old high school friend of mine who plays this game is around like rank 10k, and he's been in band since like 6th grade. I truly think osu comes easier to those who have a good sense of rhythm. Or it might just be those who studied music in some way are just more inclined to enjoy osu, and therefore do better (i do believe you do better at things you enjoy).

In any case, now that I have a great tablet and keypad, I can't blame my screw ups on a lack of "proper peripherals"...

I also kind of disagree with what the OP in the thread that was linked is saying, I think his metrics are just plain wrong... It's kind of crazy to me that he'd have the audacity to call someone under 5k "untalented".

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*. If i had lower reaction time, play high AR would be much easier and wouldn't need spam high AR for really long time until learning new ways to play it.
I can remember be at rank 55k with 15k plays and get rekt for everysingle player around 400k with really low time played at any AR10 map.
I can't improve my reaction time, but i can learn to predict beats, improve eyes speed, fingers speed, information processed...

For sure talents make difference but my fingers get much faster than if i had 150ms reaction time instead almost 500ms. What was a handicap and still being give me tons of advantage now playing high bpm stuff, compared to what i could do if i had a normal reaction time. Like if i had only 1 finger on my hand i probably will be singletapping streams right now, making 300 bpm singletap maps boring and easy.
So i think you can compensate your handicaps making others skills improve to the next level.
A good example of what I'm saying: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 88959.html
There is nothing what can stop you if you're motivated and you have the right mindset.

"Do you believe in gravity?"

Talent doesn't matter.

Talent only matters when you compare yourself to others which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

Do what you want in life regardless on whether you are good at it or not.

You don't need talent to "enjoy game" or to experience the journey of challenging yourself to become the best you can be.

Obviously talent exists, but you can still get gud by trying hard. It can take way longer for untalented person to get same results as talented tho.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*. If i had lower reaction time, play high AR would be much easier and wouldn't need spam high AR for really long time until learning new ways to play it.
I can remember be at rank 55k with 15k plays and get rekt for everysingle player around 400k with really low time played at any AR10 map.
I can't improve my reaction time, but i can learn to predict beats, improve eyes speed, fingers speed, information processed...

For sure talents make difference but my fingers get much faster than if i had 150ms reaction time instead almost 500ms. What was a handicap and still being give me tons of advantage now playing high bpm stuff, compared to what i could do if i had a normal reaction time. Like if i had only 1 finger on my hand i probably will be singletapping streams right now, making 300 bpm singletap maps boring and easy.
So i think you can compensate your handicaps making others skills improve to the next level.
A good example of what I'm saying: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 88959.html
There is nothing what can stop you if you're motivated and you have the right mindset.

You do not stop to amaze me.

I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked.

Railey2 and me have different opinion about this.
Other thread was fired up discussion.

Talent obviously exists for osu!, I think if anyone tries hard enough with the right mindset and intelligence, they could be very proficient at, say, an HD+HR modset, but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently. Also, time is a factor, because even with the combination of hard work and time, by the time you reach the meta level today, it's gonna be completely below what it would be 2 years from now, and talent can greatly accelerate the process.

The problem with Railey2's thread though is that there's no accurate way of measuring your capability. When I think of talent, I don't think of someone that's a "natural", because other games you've played before osu! can heavily influence that, which is what Railey2's thread is focusing on. Only you can determine whether or not you can become a pro, not someone else.

NixXSkate wrote:

but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently.

Everyone's capable of inaccurately doing it tbh

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently.

Everyone's capable of inaccurately doing it tbh

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Rayne wrote:

TL;DR
Talent doesn't exist.

Implying that I can become the next Mozart?
Implying that I can run as fast as Usain Bolt?
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

NixXSkate wrote:

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Vallista DT isn't anywhere as impressive imo compared to my 0 misses on things like tower of heaven, ojamajo de ban ban, or my fc of black apple. Those are underrated. Imo anyone can decide to spent hours a day everyday in order to get faster and more stamina like going to the gym; it's not hard, just demanding and in need of consistency. There's no talent to that aspect per se.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Vallista DT isn't anywhere as impressive imo compared to my 0 misses on things like tower of heaven, ojamajo de ban ban, or my fc of black apple. Those are underrated. Imo anyone can decide to spent hours a day everyday in order to get faster and more stamina like going to the gym; it's not hard, just demanding and in need of consistency. There's no talent to that aspect per se.

What if I practice as much as you and I can't even pass those maps? Isn't it talent that helped you improving faster?

Then you clearly didn't actually do that or didn't play the right things.

Nattsun wrote:

Rayne wrote:

TL;DR
Talent doesn't exist.

Implying that I can become the next Mozart?
Implying that I can run as fast as Usain Bolt?
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

Is entirely your fault you're not Mozart/Einstein/Cookiezi, you just didn't try hard enough/practice the right way :^)

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Then you clearly didn't actually do that or didn't play the right things.

You don't seem to understand that our fingers move differently; the reason you're talking like this is because you had no problem improving your streaming. Talent doesn't mean you just hop in the game deathstreaming 300bpm. You're pretty funny if you think that just because you personally were able to improve so fast that other people can. No sentience. You can argue all you want that I'm not practicing right, our fingers and forearms aren't built the same. It's more than just talent, it's physical differences.