In other words, short of any kind of limiting disability, do you think different people have different hard ceilings of skill, or can anyone be the best if they try hard enough and for long enough, regardless of how long it takes?
Sure, I'm not arguing that. It's clear that some people get better at certain things much faster than others.Sandy Hoey wrote:
I think that anyone can get good, but the ease of which they can do that depends on talent.
But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?Sandy Hoey wrote:
And since people who have "talent" need less time to get to the same level, they can progress even further
I think if we are talking about the average person, disabilities (physical and mental) aside, everyone can get to the same point. It just gets infinitely more challenging for the "untalented" person a lot faster than the "talented" person. Although, I don't think they will ever catch up if the "talented" person put in the same effortPhilosofikal wrote:
But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?
Philosofikal wrote:
But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?
It was a good read, but the thread was poisoned from the word go because the OP assumed they already knew the answer and spent the whole thread evangelizing with poor data and arguments instead of fostering a debate.johnmedina999 wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/504759
This is a good read.
Agreed, Talent is generally a way to summarize various uncontrollable facts about oneself. For instance people have different IQ's which state your ability to learn. This is something that is based on genetics and can't be controlled. Now everyone can become more knowledgeable with effort spent but the amount of effort needed for a person with low IQ is much more than that of high IQ. I remember people back in school that worked hard, studied a lot and were always there for tutoring who just didn't do well because they weren't very smart. I was an extremely lazy kid in school and did about as much homework was required and never studied. I graduated with a 3.8, most of my B's were from things like not doing homework as I didn't see the point as I understood the subject matter without needing to practice it.tomden wrote:
Hmm I'm pretty sure not everyone can achieve the same level. I mean learning something comes down to training and shaping the neural-network that is your brain, why would we assume that every brain is the same at birth?
Do you believe in talent?Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.
I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?I Give Up wrote:
Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.
That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.Taiga wrote:
My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles.
Mentality matters more.Philosofikal wrote:
In other words, short of any kind of limiting disability, do you think different people have different hard ceilings of skill, or can anyone be the best if they try hard enough and for long enough, regardless of how long it takes?
That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.No.
There is people in the world playing guitar using the foot after a hand accident and living from it. There is also people what broke a nail and leave the job.[Taiga] wrote:
Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.
Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.
What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.
Why would only the learning rate be affected and not the skill ceiling? It's all about how fast the brain can generate outputs given certain inputs, a neural network can be continiously trained but at some point addaptions won't result in an improvement and the performance limit is reached, this limit is determined the topology of the neural networks created in your brain and differs from person to person. Another limiting factor is the speed it takes the input signals to start being processed and the speed at which generated output results in the corresponding action, which again is different for everyone and does decrease when people age.Philosofikal wrote:
I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?
You never stop being amusing.ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:
There is people in the world playing guitar using the foot after a hand accident and living from it. There is also people what broke a nail and leave the job.[Taiga] wrote:
Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.
Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.
What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.
It's easier to say genetics make him better than me. Instead say i could have worked more to get that far.
If you are going to post in my thread can you keep it civil, please? I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked. This is a good discussion in G&R for once and I don't need you to fuck it up by being a shitposting mongoloid.[Taiga] wrote:
you never stop being amusing.
Keep it going bro, do you ever read wtf are you writing?
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
[Taiga] wrote:
That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.No.
First off - my left hand is weak due several shit situations irl.
Second - I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way (including weird hand positions on keyboard). osu was just a trigger. It ended up on 7 months inactivity in osu and any rhythm game. I bet if i could do same shit for right hand, it would end same way. You don't imagine how much pain it is to not being able to move your hand properly, not being able to sleep due how much pain is produced by stupid carpal tunnel - that's why I have so much laugh at all this noobs claiming "hey, I have RSI". This stupid cunts doesn't even know how painfull it is.
Third - All tapping what i do, I use fingers, only fingers. Whenever i use wrist to "tap faster", it ends up being a nightmare for next hours. Why? Read "Second".
I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level, deal with it. Doesn't matter how much talented i could be - there is a limit where my progression stop.
Don't tell me about "excuses" because I am probably last one here who makes one.
You do not stop to amaze me.ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:
Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*. If i had lower reaction time, play high AR would be much easier and wouldn't need spam high AR for really long time until learning new ways to play it.
I can remember be at rank 55k with 15k plays and get rekt for everysingle player around 400k with really low time played at any AR10 map.
I can't improve my reaction time, but i can learn to predict beats, improve eyes speed, fingers speed, information processed...
For sure talents make difference but my fingers get much faster than if i had 150ms reaction time instead almost 500ms. What was a handicap and still being give me tons of advantage now playing high bpm stuff, compared to what i could do if i had a normal reaction time. Like if i had only 1 finger on my hand i probably will be singletapping streams right now, making 300 bpm singletap maps boring and easy.
So i think you can compensate your handicaps making others skills improve to the next level.
A good example of what I'm saying: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 88959.html
There is nothing what can stop you if you're motivated and you have the right mindset.
I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked.Railey2 and me have different opinion about this.