IamKwaN wrote:

1. Guest mappers and storyboarders must be added to the tags of a mapset. This helps others know if the map uploader is the main contributor of the mapset and who else contributed to the given mapset.

Is including storyboarders in a mapset a necessity? True that they should be respected for what they have done, but there's also some cases like:

1. The storyboard is just tag names for collaboration (something like https://puu.sh/vTNX1/384adce02a.PNG ) so it wouldn't make much sense to include storyboarders in tags when the storyboard itself is minor as it can be.
2. There's also some cases like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/442327 where people did minor SB elements and all of them ended up in the tags, I mean it would be okay-ish to put them in tags but it's not a necessity either since they didn't majorly impact the mapset with what they did with their storyboarding.

Firis Mistlud wrote:

Few questions:
1. If a song compilation is mapped from an album, Then is it okay to use the name of the album as the title of the map?
ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/448488

Yes, as stated.
> The creator is entitled to name the song with their major edits, including compilation, nightcore or remixing, in a reasonable way indicating the song is no longer official.

Firis Mistlud wrote:

2. If a song itself have an official English title, then should the English Title/Artist should be used or using the original Japanese name as Romanized Title/Artist?
ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841 , The song supposed romanized as "Aozora no Rhapsody"

According to rule no.2, Aozora no Rhapsody as Romanised Title and 青空のラプソディ as Unicode Title.
> Songs with multi-lingual adaptions must use the metadata in its original form in the unicode fields and have their translated counterparts in the romanised fields.

Firis Mistlud wrote:

3. If the song's title is different depending the localized version of the game/anime, The should question 2 applies in this situation (Official, in this case)
ex: The ending of Atelier Firis, The Original japanese name is 光ノ軌跡, which was romanized as "Hikari no Kiseki"
But in the Chinese/Worldwide release of the game, it was named as "Trail of Light"

If "Hikari no Kiseki" is not officially stated, then 光ノ軌跡 should be as Unicode Title while Trail of Light as Romanised Title, same answer as the above question.

So, on the BMS topic, I'm just gonna post this on behalf of what #osumania has discussed in the modding association server.

Hydria - Today at 8:15 PM
"Unless the song was specifically made for the game (e.g. anything from BMSOF for BMS), it should not be a creditable source."

We have been discussing that as long as songs are made exclusively for a certain game aka original songs (such as some plot songs like Lachryma or HE4VEN for SDVX), it should be fine, hence SDVX is a citable source.

However, when it comes to BMS,

XeoStyle - Today at 8:24 PM
BMS is an emulator, how it can have anything "official" in it lol

Raveille - Today at 8:29 PM
so actually
BMS to IIDX
as for kshoot to SDVX
am I right

XeoStyle - Today at 8:29 PM
yup

So, the current verdict as it stands is...

BMS should not be a citable source.

HOWEVER, songs created in vsrg-related song-creation based tournaments, such as BMS Of Fighters (http://www.bmsoffighters.net/) and Shooter's Festival 2015 (http://ksmeve.wixsite.com/shooters-festival/sf2015) can be citable sources as the music is created purely for said tournaments and most artists credit their music with these tournament titles on soundcloud/youtube etc as seen here:


(edit thanks to Hydria)

A lot of western artists tend to link services like Spotify and iTunes when looking up their discography. Should this be considered as official then?

Also, say for instance we take the song Kimi no Shiranai Monogatari by supercell.
As far as I know, there IS a preferred AND official (according to this ruleset draft) romanization. https://youtu.be/eLPs_w-FepA
This was used as a joke before on Monstrata's map thread, but according to this, should we take the romanization from the YouTube link instead?

I don't remember which mapset (probably a SAO map) , but recently one got nominated using Recochoku, an online music store comparable to iTunes. Sometimes TV Sizes and "Radio Versions" are only released via this medium. Since stuff like iTunes is not considered official, should we then take this as a source?

Sometimes Hi-Res audio versions (24/96 FLACs) are released via OTOTOY and mora, also online music stores. These studio version can usually only be obtained from these sources. Same question, should we also consider these stores as a source?

For Korean songs, a lot of songs have an English Title (like BTS' FIRE, Girls' Generation's Genie). How do we determine to either use translated, or romanized?

Perhaps, you could also add a rule to specify whether "東方project" or the whole Cherry Blossom title etc.

Korean songs mostly uses translated titles as official ones, But there are a few cases without translated title such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/519665

Raveille wrote:

So, on the BMS topic, I'm just gonna post this on behalf of what #osumania has discussed in the modding association server.

Hydria - Today at 8:15 PM
"Unless the song was specifically made for the game (e.g. anything from BMSOF for BMS), it should not be a creditable source."

We have been discussing that as long as songs are made exclusively for a certain game aka original songs (such as some plot songs like Lachryma or HE4VEN for SDVX), it should be fine, hence SDVX is a citable source.

However, when it comes to BMS,

XeoStyle - Today at 8:24 PM
BMS is an emulator, how it can have anything "official" in it lol

Raveille - Today at 8:29 PM
so actually
BMS to IIDX
as for kshoot to SDVX
am I right

XeoStyle - Today at 8:29 PM
yup

To elaborate, BMS is a file format, made for an emulator called BM98.
So BMS isn't even an emulator like stepmania or kshootmania.
This should be even more of a reason to not have "BMS" in source.



As for romanization of Korean, I suggest the Revised Romanization of Korean made by the Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism.

TheKwaninator wrote:

5. Minor edits of the song, including timing adjustments or adding beats require no change in the title. A description showing what has been edited must be shown in the creator's words.

I think a description showing that it has been edited would suffice more than what has been edited.

"Reol - No Title [Short Ver]" would be a better fit than "Reol - No Title - 00:00:000 -> 01:19:197" or "Reol - No Title (until after the first chorus)", plus not all maps in a mapset finish at the same time.

If it was just intending to be a [Short Ver] in the map's description then wording needs to be fixed as it is misleading imo.

A lot of western artists tend to link services like Spotify and iTunes when looking up their discography. Should this be considered as official then?

You're missunderstanding what is "source" used for. Let's take some more simple example than BMS (wich is kinda more complicated) : a game OST.

Let's say you're charting BFG Division by Mick Gordon from the DOOM soundtrack, would you put DOOM or Spotify as a source ? Yeah ofc DOOM.

If you're song is not related to some kind of media (film, serie, game...), just let the source empty. iTunes, Bandcamp... are delivery platform, not direct source.

IamKwaN wrote:

Website names, album names and format names are not acceptable sources. Is BMS acceptable as a Source?

I think BMS is acceptable as a Source if and only if the song was intended to be released with it as a default song in the game or contest within the game. Iterations of the song that are not the original song belonging to its respective source should not be listed as part of that source.

Example 1:
xi - Halcyon (mapset by gowww) is the original adaptation of the song released in 2010 for BMS as part of the BoF2010 event whereas xi - Halcyon (mapset by Natsu) is the 2011 album released version (2nd adaptation) not intended to be affiliated with BMS. On a side note Natsu, the title for the full version of Halcyon is shown > here < as well as the backside of Parousia's cover. So I don't know where you got - Long Version - from zz. Therefore, only the first original version of the song should be cited as BMS and not the latter.

Example 2:
xi - Ascension to Heaven by Shiirn should be BMS whereas xi - Ascension to Heaven by Kroytz should not be.

However, in the case of it being a contest song such as Sakuzyo - Altale or xi - Aragami, I'm starting to wonder now if it would it be better to have it listed as BMS or the contest from which it was submitted to? For the two listed above, it's technical original Source would be: G2R2014 "GO BACK 2 YOUR ROOTS" -THE BMS OF FIGHTERS 2004 RELOADED- according to the the name of the contest but the platform it was released on is BMS.

Similarly, for songs belonging to other games such as SDVX, do contest songs get listed by the game platform or the contest?
As an example: Does iLLness LiLin get listed under "SDVX IV HE4VENLY HAVEN" because it was first debut'd on it or does it get Sourced under The 6th KAC Original Song Contest (The 6th KAC オリジナル楽曲コンテスト) because that was where it was first submitted to originally?

Personally, I believe for simplicity's sake that contest songs should be Sourced under their respective game platform as the original released version of the song and not part of the contest it belongs to only because these contests are part of these game platforms and in most cases designed for them - in this case, The 6th KAC Original Song Contest winners were designed specially for SDVX IV HE4VENLY HAVEN. A person looking through SDVX IV songs will only find six default songs followed by a plethora of contest song winners, licensed songs, and arrangements among others.

XeoStyle wrote:

A lot of western artists tend to link services like Spotify and iTunes when looking up their discography. Should this be considered as official then?

You're missunderstanding what is "source" used for. Let's take some more simple example than BMS (wich is kinda more complicated) : a game OST.

Let's say you're charting BFG Division by Mick Gordon from the DOOM soundtrack, would you put DOOM or Spotify as a source ? Yeah ofc DOOM.

If you're song is not related to some kind of media (film, serie, game...), just let the source empty. iTunes, Bandcamp... are delivery platform, not direct source.

I meant that these type of media can be USED a source, where you can take metadata like the Artist and Title, not being used in the "Source" field.

In case it's a korean songs, I think we have to follow the korean romanization method, which is Sonnyc posted, that is used commonly in korea or somewhere when we do romazination the korean words.
(the case of this, the metadata of the korean songs)

It's exist why avoiding any issue to standardize as the romazination the korean words imo.

Yeah, I mean I agree with Natsu in here >_>

Cyrillic Romanisation: Use BGN/PCGN system for Russian/Cyrillic. "Е" and "е" should be romanised as "ye" if it stands alone or after "a", "e", "ё", "и", "о", "у", "ы", "э", "ю", "я", "й", "ъ", "ь". In other cases, it should be romanised as "e". Rule 1 also applies to ё, however, use "yo" or "o" to avoid usage of special characters. Ignore any other rules in the file provided, these are either irrelevant or wouldn't help in the game. If an artist uses a preferred romanisation, follow it regardless of this rule. If Cyrillic is used to represent a word from another language, use the form from that language. For most of the other characters, refer to the first page of this document.

This is messed up, how about romanization of Cyrillic that is not on Russian, they should use Russian system too? For reference you may compare romazition of different Cyrillic based languages, there are differences.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... USSIAN.PDF
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... RUSIAN.PDF
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... AINIAN.pdf
etc

IamKwaN wrote:

1. Website names, album names and format names are not acceptable sources. Is BMS acceptable as a Source?

I know that Wikipedia isn't a reputable source for scientific research but according to the BMS article I would see it as an acceptable source since they were made for this specific purpose like countless bemani songs have been made for their specific games.


Also, what bothers me since eternities and what I wish you'll hopefully consider adding to the draft

Please don't allow tags that have zero relevance to artist, song, album, mapper or anything else for that matter.
Saying you're "helping players find harder maps by adding an irrelevant tag to the map" is a pathetic excuse for littering your tags with memes


Despite my rant though, I see this as an issue, even if it doesn't appear to happen often (or rather rarely), it happens noticeably (e.g. there was a map which had it's whole lyrics in the tags iirc)

You wouldn't use wikipedia as a metadata source, so why refer people to wikipedia for metadata information? If you want an actual guide to the modified hepburn romanization system for Japanese, here's a much better site that's actually official: https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romaniz ... panese.pdf courtesy of the US Library of Congress.

In case you weren't sure, that document is the Modified Hepburn Romanization system. It doesn't specify it's the modified hepburn system, but it is, since the modified hepburn system is the default romanization system for Japanese according to the ALA-LC.

As for Korean romanization, also refer to: https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/korean.pdf for the official standard.

Also for:

Cyrillic Romanisation: Use BGN/PCGN system for Russian/Cyrillic. "Е" and "е" should be romanised as "ye" if it stands alone or after "a", "e", "ё", "и", "о", "у", "ы", "э", "ю", "я", "й", "ъ", "ь". In other cases, it should be romanised as "e". Rule 1 also applies to ё, however, use "yo" or "o" to avoid usage of special characters. Ignore any other rules in the file provided, these are either irrelevant or wouldn't help in the game. If an artist uses a preferred romanisation, follow it regardless of this rule. If Cyrillic is used to represent a word from another language, use the form from that language. For most of the other characters, refer to the first page of this document.

I wouldn't recommend BGN/PCGN system since the system is intended for geographical naming. BGN = US Board of Geographic Names, PCGN = Permanent Council on Geographic Names. The BGN/PCGN system is more applicable to geographic naming systems. Actually, there are specific rules for handling geospatial locations, GIS etc... For a site like osu! it's better to just use the romanization standard set by the LOC since this is the system Information Management professions and systems (Archivists, Librarians, databases) use. For the Russian/Cyrillic script, the romanization system is quite simple: https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romaniz ... ussian.pdf

This must be because of the whole Alveryn vs Asuka thing isn't it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElwPOcWeJGg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr8lpmr_pnA

Should be we used English title as Romaji title?

And this case is make me confused
http://radwimps.jp/discography/post_8947/
http://radwimps.jp/discography/post_8451/

Source Link 1 is about Deluxe Edition
Source Link 2 is about Regular and Limted Edition

As we can see, Deluxe Edition is used english title (bonus disc is japanese version, not english version), so which languages we used for romaji title? English or Japanese?

marshallracer wrote:

Also, what bothers me since eternities and what I wish you'll hopefully consider adding to the draft

Please don't allow tags that have zero relevance to artist, song, album, mapper or anything else for that matter.
Saying you're "helping players find harder maps by adding an irrelevant tag to the map" is a pathetic excuse for littering your tags with memes

Wouldn't say that mapper is something that should be considered. You can argue that <insert mapper known for jumpy maps> add "jump training map" or <insert mapper known for stream maps> add "deathstream stream compilation training map" as tags because they relate to the mapper - a garbage reason. I understand where are you up for, just mentoring that it could be a loophole to abuse.

IamKwaN wrote:

Guest mappers and storyboarders must be added to the tags of a mapset. This helps others know if the map uploader is the main contributor of the mapset and who else contributed to the given mapset.

I have a question: since the rule says the SBers and the GDers must be added then I guess the skinners and the hitsounders must be included too, right?

And on the matter of romanization of Cyrillic: I guess we should rather use our common sense instead of very "professional" rules. It is very practical when we have the very rules and we don't actually have a clue about it but it is literally a pain to see "х" translated as "kh" and not just "h". It kills me when the word "суха" is transformed into "sukha". Please, just let that part of the rules die even if the whole rest is going to be intact.

Does the spanish's ñ apply for this case? (tags)

BMS as a source probably started from a few folks looking on their computers
at a BMS folder and went oh ya this is BMS
and it stuck, because in the context of osu, BMS became a catchall of BOF
so what ended up happening is BMS ends up in source, and the proper BOF year ends up in tags
I think? But that's pretty silly considering BMS is just the filetype, and BOF stands for BMS of Fighters

BMS isn't really a game, it is a file type, and to be honest, i think the reason people use it was because they thought the artists who produce the music made it for the file type rather than BOF, or they thought it was a term for Bemani games? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be-Music_Source

Usually bemani related stuff sources as the game it showed up in, and is any one of the available games... I think
It might have been FLOWER that has the alternate source names
where the source changed a lot but they ended up being all acceptable
as far as BMS goes I think it'd be best if that got replaced with the correct production, like BOF

I think an example song where that would be the correct setting would be uhh
sasakure.UK - Pangaea
very awesome song, but IIRC it was made for BMS emulation
It wasn't made for a contest or for a specific emulator, it was just... an 8K chart that works with BMS
however with stuff like sasakure.UK - Jack the Ripper
THAT was made for a contest, and BMS OF FIGHTERS (insert year here) would be more fitting there

Yeah, I also think BMS as a source seems awkward.

Krfawy wrote:

IamKwaN wrote:

Guest mappers and storyboarders must be added to the tags of a mapset. This helps others know if the map uploader is the main contributor of the mapset and who else contributed to the given mapset.

I have a question: since the rule says the SBers and the GDers must be added then I guess the skinners and the hitsounders must be included too, right?

agreed. personally think that every contributor who aided in addiing mapset elements (excluding modification, so modders will not be included) should be credited in the tags.

appleeaterx wrote:

A lot of western artists tend to link services like Spotify and iTunes when looking up their discography. Should this be considered as official then?

unless there are no other official sources to search up for the respective discographies, or else personally believe it should be no for both since the formatting of metadata may be altered by third parties for specific reasonings. official artist sites and music covers should always be the priority reference. though there exist examples like exclusive music sessions on music sites or such, so everything should be treated on a case-by-case basis anyway.
besides, audio versions don't really affect the metadata by the way, as long as the metadata is referred to official sources.

btw there's an older thread that could be used as reference. https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/373162

Regarding Cyrillic Romanisation

Sieg wrote:

This is messed up, how about romanization of Cyrillic that is not on Russian, they should use Russian system too? For reference you may compare romazition of different Cyrillic based languages, there are differences.

It doesn't say you should use Russian romanisation. Just that you should use BGN/PCGN for Cyrillic. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... on-systems should be linked in the rule, so that people don't use the provided Russian one for all Cyrillic.

Monstrata wrote:

I wouldn't recommend BGN/PCGN system since the system is intended for geographical naming. BGN = US Board of Geographic Names, PCGN = Permanent Council on Geographic Names. The BGN/PCGN system is more applicable to geographic naming systems. Actually, there are specific rules for handling geospatial locations, GIS etc... For a site like osu! it's better to just use the romanization standard set by the LOC since this is the system Information Management professions and systems (Archivists, Librarians, databases) use. For the Russian/Cyrillic script, the romanization system is quite simple: https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romaniz ... ussian.pdf

We did consider multiple types of romanization. We ended up with BGN/PCGN as the best option because it most accurately described the way it reads. List of reasons:

1. Using it avoided usage of special characters (apart from ë, which we made an exception for), others usually had more things to solve (for example romanization of й as ĭ in the system you provided wouldn't help us, there would have to be a discussion whether it's j, y or i or even something else.
2. We've chosen a system compatible with other systems we are using in osu!. You might notice it is very similar to Modified Hepburn for Japanese. Examples:
   
   1. ю reads as yu, which reads nearly the same as ゆ which is also romanised as yu. Using iu would read differently in both languages. This allows us to make it more compatible and reader friendly.
   2. Some systems used j for й. In other romanisations that we use in osu!, y is used for that sound and j is more like the one in a word "juice". That's another word where we avoided mixing them together between languages.
   3. Many systems don't make difference between Cyrillic е, ё and э. While sometimes э reads the same as е, it's not always like that, that's why, instead of making up our own distinction, we've chosen BGN/PCGN which has this defined and it again fits with other romanization systems that we're using. Many systems don't even differentiate ё, which pronounces in a completely different way. BGN/PCGN is using ë or yë to romanise it, so that's the only thing we had to make an exception for and it's relatively similar to other romanisation systems again.
   4. х is romanised as h in some systems. This is only accurate in very little portion of languages. Many languages pronounce it as in "hole". In fact, many languages don't have that sound at all, but х is pronounced as h with the difference that you attempt to say it with a quiet k in the beginning which creates that hoarse sound. Many Slavic languages use ch to represent this sound, but that would be very far from how our other romanisations pronounce it, as in "chicken". Even though this one could be pronounced a bit inaccurately because you have to use the breathy accent, it's still not as far from the original.
      Additionally, if you've ever had geography in school, you must have seen "Kazakhstan", where this romanisation is used and you should know how to read it.
3. You might argue that the last example is because BGN/PCGN is for geographic names. It is made for it but is not limited to it, moreover, it's the reason why most of people should find it familiar.

We've discussed these things and we are aware of them. The reason why the BGN/PCGN was picked despite being primarily for geographic names is that it's very well known. It required only one modification where a special character was used. It is completely compatible with the systems we are used to in osu! (e.g. Modified Hepburn) and unlike others, doesn't coĺlide in pronunciation.

@Krfawy I explained your concern in the list of examples. We need to avoid a collision and still present the sound as accurately with possible. For your суха example - we need to achieve this pronunciation. Using h would result in something like this in Ukrainian. Using ch would obviously be completely incorrect. The reason for using kh is that the pronunciation, in fact, comes from modifying h with the accent of k, which makes it much more similar if you can do the accent.

There are other reasons why BGN/PCGN was chosen, but these are the most major ones. It also exists for other Cyrillic languages and as I've been going through the list, the Cyrillic languages which we could ever use here mostly didn't contradict with the romanisation systems we are using in osu!, so that solves us a problem of finding a romanisation system for every single language, because the pronunciation rules are usually equal in these systems.

Wafu wrote:

Regarding Cyrillic Romanisation

Sieg wrote:

This is messed up, how about romanization of Cyrillic that is not on Russian, they should use Russian system too? For reference you may compare romazition of different Cyrillic based languages, there are differences.

It doesn't say you should use Russian romanisation. Just that you should use BGN/PCGN for Cyrillic. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... on-systems should be linked in the rule, so that people don't use the provided Russian one for all Cyrillic.

There is no point to split Russian form Cyrillic if you going to use that link. I mean in wording "Use BGN/PCGN system for Russian/Cyrillic."

Also about character sequences, which is quoted below, you should either remove, make similar statements for other Cyrillic languages or generialize it somehow because from what I can see in the BGN/PCGN documentation there are different rules for character sequences for different languages.

"Е" and "е" should be romanised as "ye" if it stands alone or after "a", "e", "ё", "и", "о", "у", "ы", "э", "ю", "я", "й", "ъ", "ь". In other cases, it should be romanised as "e". Rule 1 also applies to ё, however, use "yo" or "o" to avoid usage of special characters. Ignore any other rules in the file provided, these are either irrelevant or wouldn't help in the game.

Sieg wrote:

Also about character sequences, which is quoted below, you should either remove, make similar statements for other Cyrillic languages or generialize it somehow because from what I can see in the BGN/PCGN documentation there are different rules for character sequences for different languages.

"Е" and "е" should be romanised as "ye" if it stands alone or after "a", "e", "ё", "и", "о", "у", "ы", "э", "ю", "я", "й", "ъ", "ь". In other cases, it should be romanised as "e". Rule 1 also applies to ё, however, use "yo" or "o" to avoid usage of special characters. Ignore any other rules in the file provided, these are either irrelevant or wouldn't help in the game.

Yeah, we'll improve this, as I've already said, even the link was missing, we need to make a clear distinction. The wording mixes all Cyrillic and Russian (which obviously needs to be changed).

Wafu wrote:

Yeah, we'll improve this, as I've already said, even the link was missing, we need to make a clear distinction. The wording mixes all Cyrillic and Russian (which obviously needs to be changed).

Will be quite not trivial task to do if you are going to keep Cyrillic romanization, as alternative you can make rules just for romanization of Russian.

First stage of consultation is ended, thanks for all your input and we would come back with our revised draft and reply to each post later.

Thanks everyone for feedback so far. We will lock it for now and discuss about all points which were bring up here.
Expect more from us soon!

btw Wafu's argument for using BGN/PCGN makes sense, so disregard my points about Cyrillic Romanisation .

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