Since there is finally a use for kds (loved status), I wanted to go about addressing some of the problems in the community involving ranking, namely, the speed of which maps are ranked and motivation for BNs to be active. (If you want details about either of these 2 issues, those can be addressed in a different thread)

Requirements:
To address these issues, there are several requirements to keep in mind. BNs need a reason to mod random bubbles over other maps, normal users need an easy way to get a BNs attention, and newer mappers need to have easy access to a BN to guide them on their map.

Before getting into details about my proposal, please note that all kds numbers proposed can be easily changed.

Proposal:
What I propose to solve these problems with these requirements is a system that heavily uses kds as cost and reward. How it'll work is that a normal user can pay a 20 kds nonrefundable charge to bubble their map. This will change a bubble from a system where mappers fight for attention to a system where mappers are confident in their map that they're willing to sacrifice something. (To accommodate the star system, the charge can be decreased by the number of stars a map has)

From there, we'll have a plethora of bubbled maps, so to handle that, the BNs need a reason to deal with them. To make that happen, all bubbles that are popped will be awarded 3 kds. However, if a BN believes a map to be rankable, the BN can qualify it, and if the map gets qualified, the BN will be awarded 30kds for his/her troubles, and the user gets the ranked map. (I guess QATs can get similar rewards to BNs, but I don't know much more that can be awarded to them)

For the new mappers, that want a BNs attention but know their map is not ready to be qualified. They can pay a 10kds charge to request a BN (This is to make sure that the mapper tries to mod first and learn how to map) After which, their map will be awarded a special status that says that if a BN mods it, they will get the full 10kds.

Conclusion:
This would represent a massive change in some senses of the system, but I hope others will offer their suggestions on this badly scaling ranking system. While I know kds are farmable and do not represent a perfect system, a kds based reward has been introduced despite that, and modding v2 will hopefully resolve the rest of the issues.

Edit: Removing cost for BNs.

So, let me try to figure that out. You want BNs to "pay" something and then "yield" something as reward for nominating something? That sounds pretty abusive and opens a can of worms and discourages any kind of post-qualification modding because people would get harassed to eternity when they start doing it ("WHY YOU MOD IT? MY PRECIOUS KUDOSU")

Then you say "new mappers" playing 10kds to "pay" for BN attention? And then what? Force BNs to mod it? BNs are not a service you are entitled to use.

Mapping and modding is a social game, it's a community activity and I saw hundreds of people simply getting in touch with people and suddenly being able to receive mods and bubbles and everything. What mappers just need to stop is to assume that they are *entitled* to receive nominations. They have to sell their creations to the BNs and the BNs then decide whether the delivered content is good or bad.

Your proposal doesn't motivate BNs. What it does is turn feedback by any kind of users in this system heavily discouraged (because feedback would lead to not getting it Ranked faster or at all, making the payment futile and make people *lose* stuff) and turning BNs into an consumable service that you can purchase.

I don't see this happening even remotely.

Not really a big fan of this. Seems like too much effort to be implemented for a pretty confusing and unnecessary system. Making Kudosu into pure currency probably isn't the best idea.

I have to disagree with a system like this. I don't think any type of currency system would work as it would force BNs to check maps, and this goes against them being volunteers doing this in their free time. This is going to turn people away from doing this. This is also a system that favors bubble popping over actual modding and helping improve the map. Since qualifying costs kd to the BNs, why would they do it unless they knew another BN is going to pay for their map too? This system wouldn't help ranking, since qualifying has now a downside to it, compared to it having no effect on the BN in the system right now. It seems like a terrible idea to deter BNs from qualifying. This would just move all pending maps to bubbled and not actually help ranking anything.

I agree that there needs to be an incentive for bns to mod maps other than those of bns. Instead of paying for a mod, why not just reward something like 10-20 kds to a bn for giving a bubble to regular mappers?

They'll be getting kds to get some of their maps (which as they are bns, should still be pretty good) loved while other mappers get one step closer to rank.

Thoughts?

My point from earlier discussions on how to make kudosu useful still stands:
As long as you can gain kudosu from having your map modded, there wont be a real incentive to spend more time on modding other people's maps.

While I do know the fact that BNs are just volunteers helping in getting quality maps qualified and ranked, there should be weighted system based on how many ranked maps the user has. Giving more kudosu to newer mappers and less to those who have ranked/bubbled maps. This gives a chance to newer mappers get their attention not only to BNs but to other modders out there. Sadly the kudosu sytem is imperfect as it is and there are flaws in my suggestion either. In conclusion seeing a revised system on kudosu would be great.

Let's reply to this 1 step at a time.

Loctav wrote:

So, let me try to figure that out. You want BNs to "pay" something and then "yield" something as reward for nominating something? That sounds pretty abusive and opens a can of worms and discourages any kind of post-qualification modding because people would get harassed to eternity when they start doing it ("WHY YOU MOD IT? MY PRECIOUS KUDOSU")

First off, postqualifiction modding happens by QATs anyway, as it is their job, and you wanted to implement a strike system anyway. I just wanted the strike system to be transparent instead of hidden away using another system.

Loctav wrote:

Then you say "new mappers" playing 10kds to "pay" for BN attention? And then what? Force BNs to mod it? BNs are not a service you are entitled to use.

BNs are there to help the community as experienced modders. They are under no obligation to mod these maps. It is purely a reward system. However, one of the biggest problem for new modders is getting decent modders to get them on the right track. While there are those who go out of their way and actively talk to people on #modhelp and similar places, many are left in the dark with no one to help them.

Loctav wrote:

Mapping and modding is a social game, it's a community activity and I saw hundreds of people simply getting in touch with people and suddenly being able to receive mods and bubbles and everything. What mappers just need to stop is to assume that they are *entitled* to receive nominations. They have to sell their creations to the BNs and the BNs then decide whether the delivered content is good or bad.

I also see thousands of maps being ignored. It stopped being just a simple game when ranking stopped being a simple thing. The few that are BNs friends can get highly preferential treatment allowing them to get maps ranked a lot faster than other mappers. With the number of BNs we have these days, it is near impossible for new mappers to get their map ranked.

Loctav wrote:

Your proposal doesn't motivate BNs. What it does is turn feedback by any kind of users in this system heavily discouraged (because feedback would lead to not getting it Ranked faster or at all, making the payment futile and make people *lose* stuff) and turning BNs into an consumable service that you can purchase.

BNs are already a consumable service that can be purchased by friendship. As you described before, modding is a social game where the most social win. I want to turn it into something that prevents such discrimination. And we all know that feedback by most modders mean near nothing right now. If the BN says no, the map is left in the trash heap.

=========

@celerih : Going to try my best to separate out your post

celerih wrote:

I don't think any type of currency system would work as it would force BNs to check maps, and this goes against them being volunteers doing this in their free time.

As stated earlier, BNs are under no obligation to check your map. They're provided an incentive to check your map if they want kds. And if you want to call this a volunteer service, that is great, but please tell me, how many BNs are willing to work constantly for such selfless reasons? Why does m4m even exist?

celerih wrote:

This is also a system that favors bubble popping over actual modding and helping improve the map. Since qualifying costs kd to the BNs, why would they do it unless they knew another BN is going to pay for their map too?

I admit this is true, but I couldn't think of another way to go about it.

celerih wrote:

This system wouldn't help ranking, since qualifying has now a downside to it, compared to it having no effect on the BN in the system right now. It seems like a terrible idea to deter BNs from qualifying.

So as I explained earlier, Loctav wanted to implement a strike system. This has happened before and as you stated before, it discouraged BNs from modding. I'm fine with taking away the penalty for BNs, but because of the proposed strike system, I left it there. However, I still do want to keep a reward for things getting ranked.

======================

So what I got from the comments so far is that the penalty for BNs is bad, so I'll remove that. However, I also noticed that the replies don't notice how biased social games are with social connections and how I think we probably shouldn't be encouraging that out of fairness to others.

So many replies, will try to get through these.

Liiraye wrote:

I agree that there needs to be an incentive for bns to mod maps other than those of bns. Instead of paying for a mod, why not just reward something like 10-20 kds to a bn for giving a bubble to regular mappers?

They'll be getting kds to get some of their maps (which as they are bns, should still be pretty good) loved while other mappers get one step closer to rank.

Thoughts?

Problem is, how do you differentiate friends of BNs from just total strangers. I believe in a system that can treat everyone more equally (no system is perfect, but trying to decrease the bias)

-Nitrous wrote:

While I do know the fact that BNs are just volunteers helping in getting quality maps qualified and ranked, there should be weighted system based on how many ranked maps the user has. Giving more kudosu to newer mappers and less to those who have ranked/bubbled maps. This gives a chance to newer mappers get their attention not only to BNs but to other modders out there. Sadly the kudosu sytem is imperfect as it is and there are flaws in my suggestion either. In conclusion seeing a revised system on kudosu would be great.

I found weighting more difficult to implement than saying, here is a flat number. However, if you can think of a great weighing system, that'll be great.

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Let's reply to this 1 step at a time.

Loctav wrote:

So, let me try to figure that out. You want BNs to "pay" something and then "yield" something as reward for nominating something? That sounds pretty abusive and opens a can of worms and discourages any kind of post-qualification modding because people would get harassed to eternity when they start doing it ("WHY YOU MOD IT? MY PRECIOUS KUDOSU")

First off, postqualifiction modding happens by QATs anyway, as it is their job, and you wanted to implement a strike system anyway. I just wanted the strike system to be transparent instead of hidden away using another system.

it's not.

Loctav wrote:

Then you say "new mappers" playing 10kds to "pay" for BN attention? And then what? Force BNs to mod it? BNs are not a service you are entitled to use.

BNs are there to help the community as experienced modders. They are under no obligation to mod these maps. It is purely a reward system. However, one of the biggest problem for new modders is getting decent modders to get them on the right track. While there are those who go out of their way and actively talk to people on #modhelp and similar places, many are left in the dark with no one to help them.

a reward that starts off with a payment. that's not a reward, that's an investment. and everyone who ruins your investment will be haunted down to the abyss.

Loctav wrote:

Mapping and modding is a social game, it's a community activity and I saw hundreds of people simply getting in touch with people and suddenly being able to receive mods and bubbles and everything. What mappers just need to stop is to assume that they are *entitled* to receive nominations. They have to sell their creations to the BNs and the BNs then decide whether the delivered content is good or bad.

I also see thousands of maps being ignored. It stopped being just a simple game when ranking stopped being a simple thing. The few that are BNs friends can get highly preferential treatment allowing them to get maps ranked a lot faster than other mappers. With the number of BNs we have these days, it is near impossible for new mappers to get their map ranked.

yet all the times new names pop up at every corner. that's how the world works. Everyone can become a BN if they accumulate the knowledge and the activity. You don't need to befriend anyone for that. Simply by being actively modding people's stuff, you get to know people. Those who get ignored are those that mostly just map and barely mod and then they obviously get no attention, because they don't give attention to other people's creations either.

Loctav wrote:

Your proposal doesn't motivate BNs. What it does is turn feedback by any kind of users in this system heavily discouraged (because feedback would lead to not getting it Ranked faster or at all, making the payment futile and make people *lose* stuff) and turning BNs into an consumable service that you can purchase.

BNs are already a consumable service that can be purchased by friendship. As you described before, modding is a social game where the most social win. I want to turn it into something that prevents such discrimination. And we all know that feedback by most modders mean near nothing right now. If the BN says no, the map is left in the trash heap.

I disagree. BNs are doing this in their free time. Therefore it is up their desire to spend their free time how they want to. If they rather want to work with people they know and where they are sure to not get insufferable or asshole-ish replies by people thinking they are entitled to get their map ranked, then so be it. Nobody gets excluded from the BNG, as long as you fulfill the join requirements. Everyone has the opportunity to join the system if they just bring the proficiency and activity for it. And that maps are left in the trash heap because BNs think they are bad is perfectly fine, because that's what they are existing for (gatekeeper principle)

You majorily ignore who these Nominators are. They are people spending their free time on this. Sure so are mappers, but since this is a community, you need to actually socialize and contribute in order to receive something in return. It's fairly simple to be honest, but however you think that post qualification modding is someone's job even though it is not done for a year anymore (QATs only act on reports). And here again, QATs do that in their free time, too. And then again they get shat on for ruining someone's investment in case of disqualification. And then again, every BN runs to a QAT prematurely, making them check maps before they "pay their investment" just to make sure that their investment is a safe bet. This makes us fall back to old problems where QATs were doing the BN's job entirely and BNs were just doing a move when the QATs checked the entire map top to bottom if it is safe to bubble.

If anything, your suggestion just makes things way worse.

Nonetheless, if the kd-system needs anything it's a complete overhaul.
It was designed at different times in a different context and trying to get it back to work without major changes seems like beating a dead horse.
The only function kudosu still holds is to roughly display your contribution towards modding and with your suggestion it even loses that.

context:
p/5258157
p/4530484

Loctav wrote:

And that maps are left in the trash heap because BNs think they are bad is perfectly fine, because that's what they are existing for (gatekeeper principle)[/color]

But wouldn't a simple mod be at least better for let the mapper know WHAT actually is exactly wrong with a map and what could be done better? I mean, talking about socialising but being antisocial because of just leaving "trash" as trash without letting somebody know what's exactly trash to give the other one a chance for improving? The Bn's accepted a kind of responsibility as they had applied for being BN/QAT, that's WHY they're BN's/QAT's and I also do know bn's, which aren't active in their specific mode, but still on this mode, where they've failed the bn-test! Why not kicking them for being inactive on their mode? If they preferring another game mode, they can easily apply for it ("just" need to pass the bn-test for sure). Why are bn's modding a mode where they've failed the bn-test? It makes the existence of the bn-test worthless, tbh.

Why dont you make a giant list of all maps who HAVE gotten above 12+ SP and ARE ready (I mean that the mapping is of decent quality) and put it into one thread or something so that BNs can find what songs can/should recieve attention?
Maybe make it higher SP higher Priority so maps who have been there for a long time can get their due attention

I don't really agree with the idea, but somehow, that would be interesting too, because that would force people to have some mods.
But on some maps that would be pretty frustrating because if you take good mappers sets, some mods would be useless because the map is already "ready for rank" I don't know if you see what I mean. owo

Good luck with that idea tho!

Have a good day here :3

Living Flower wrote:

and I also do know bn's, which aren't active in their specific mode, but still on this mode, where they've failed the bn-test! Why not kicking them for being inactive on their mode? If they preferring another game mode, they can easily apply for it ("just" need to pass the bn-test for sure). Why are bn's modding a mode where they've failed the bn-test? It makes the existence of the bn-test worthless, tbh.

The basic purpose of the test is to approve people who have ability to judge maps of that mode. The test is definite evaluation anyway, so why do they have to be kicked out just because they're a little inactive? Regardless of someone being a BN or not, anyone can still apply for BN test and become one as well. It's not like "this inactive BN has taken a BN slot so that another modder who is more active cannot join".

edit: congrats on my 2222nd post!

Doyak wrote:

Living Flower wrote:

and I also do know bn's, which aren't active in their specific mode, but still on this mode, where they've failed the bn-test! Why not kicking them for being inactive on their mode? If they preferring another game mode, they can easily apply for it ("just" need to pass the bn-test for sure). Why are bn's modding a mode where they've failed the bn-test? It makes the existence of the bn-test worthless, tbh.

The basic purpose of the test is to approve people who have ability to judge maps of that mode. The test is definite evaluation anyway, so why do they have to be kicked out just because they're a little inactive? Regardless of someone being a BN or not, anyone can still apply for BN test and become one as well. It's not like "this inactive BN has taken a BN slot so that another modder who is more active cannot join".

edit: congrats on my 2222nd post!

lel