Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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animexamera

smoogipooo wrote:

This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?
Bramble
I mean yeah, I'm curious about how it's gonna affect scores and pp too. I know it's not going to affect any of that yet, but keyword *yet*. Are there any plans about that? Other than forcing us to use it in TWC2017? (Which I was gonna participate in but now I'm not, not because of this though)
Drum Decimator

animexamera wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?
For now I think we should all keep this on topic of ScoreV2 being separate from regular gameplay and just keep it focused around TWC. It's nice to see that through discussion this is turning into a good way of balancing out HD and HR, combo and accuracy, and just overall scoring for a tournament setting.
My only criticism is of course the Finishers; I have two suggestions, the latter of which I strongly agree with.
  1. Make hitting Finishers appropriately 2x score and penalise with a miss otherwise.
  2. Keep hitting Finishers appropriately at 4x score but penalise with 1x score if hit otherwise.

I think having a mandatory 4x score or miss is a VERY large punishment for a tournament setting, especially for many maps (such as Loctav's) that overkill Finishers (ironically, with the way Finishers are now, his maps are virtually unplayable xD). However, giving the player a miss for technically hitting a note is a no-go, it's unfair and uncalled for. I think having a 4x score on Finishers, as opposed to the standard 2x, will place a larger emphasis on the appropriate hitting of Finishers like Loctav is trying to get at with this change.
Missing on Spinners and Sliders really shouldn't be any sort of issue at all since they're almost always relatively easy to hit.

Even though we've been told not to discuss PP yet; I'd like to point at that ScoreV2 for the other modes remains simply as a secondary scoring mechanic for tournaments, and is not aimed to replace the current scoring system. I can see why many people would worry about this, for example myself, as mandatory double-hit finishers and 30% sliders would ruin a lot of plays I already have. For now I'd like to say that the best course of action in terms of PP would be to fix up HDHR (so it can be used as intended [also it's apparently fixed on CE but I don't see it]) and to possibly apply the HD and HR formats in ScoreV2 over to ScoreV1 (seems fair, and nothing is broken).
Don't get me started on converts, they're "maps" that essentially cheat the ranking criteria, and if anything, should be given a x0.00pp multiplier like Loved/Qualified/TAG4 maps.
Conor
completely remove any idea you have of combo breaking from finishers and instead penalize a 1 key hit with a lower score multiplier

it's the only real gameplay issue left standing in this new system and it shouldn't be there at all

keep the 4x multiplier for a 2 key hit and apply a 2x multiplier to a 1 key hit (1x multiplier if you want more impact or perhaps no score at all if that's possible)

when you're playing a tournament where the only winning condition is highest score there's absolutely no reason at all to penalize people in the way you intend to do it

give finishers a high enough multiplier for being hit properly and i can guarantee people will go for them more (because winning is good)

besides as tournaments only get harder in terms of map pools it'll get to a point where certain maps will straight up look retarded to watch from a viewing perspective when there's a combo break at every note (hint: playing wouldn't be so fun either)
Remyria
Can not hitting finishers with both keys just not break combo at all? >.<
newme96
I don't know is it just me but I feel like the HP is really meaningless.
Loctav

Jaye wrote:

I think having a mandatory 4x score or miss is a VERY large punishment for a tournament setting, especially for many maps (such as Loctav's) that overkill Finishers (ironically, with the way Finishers are now, his maps are virtually unplayable xD). However, giving the player a miss for technically hitting a note is a no-go, it's unfair and uncalled for. I think having a 4x score on Finishers, as opposed to the standard 2x, will place a larger emphasis on the appropriate hitting of Finishers like Loctav is trying to get at with this change.
I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
MMzz
Most of my points are formed from the perspective of being a mapper and high level player. Keep that in mind. Also I didn't read anything in this thread I'm just throwing out my opinions based off what is written in the OP.

- Combo breaking on Spinners and Drumrolls seems really harsh because they are intended to be filler, not a mechanic that defines your skill. Nothing about missing a couple bonus points warrants your overall score of the map being diminished. But if the mechanics behind Spinners and Drumrolls were changed to have something that actually take some skill and not mindless mashing to the rhythm, then misses for incomplete sections would make sense.

- Having combo breaks on incomplete Finishers almost falls under the same realm as my argument for Combos and Spinners. Finishers are rarely used with the intention of the player hitting both sides while designing a map. More times than not finishers are just sound aesthetics. The only time this would be untrue are cases where the mapper is placing finishers at the ends of 1/3 and 1/4 streams, or 1/3 finisher spam similar to this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/237306 While the latter is much more rare case it is worth mentioning.

Hitting 2 keys at once is no amazing feat reached by the player with tons of practice, but hitting the keys at once in succession directly after streaming (or even while streaming in the case of 1/3 note) is something that takes some time to learn and perfect. So when the majority of the time finishers are not being used as something that takes that specific skilll, having a combo break for them being incomplete is unfair.

- HP staying the way it is now but misses just being weighed more heavily? The mania HP system would be much better for taiko and give passing maps more value. Most of the time you can just play the last sections of a map decently and you'll get a pass when you've tanked the first portion. This is mainly to blame because no one uses very high HP in ranked maps, but also by how the HP system currently works.
XK2238

Loctav wrote:

I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
one attempt of an example scenario would be this map that was in last year's LMS; it has a pretty lengthy 1/2-snap D K D K D K D K ... section at 260 BPM which is VERY difficult to double-hit all the way through without risking misses. In the instance where both sides pull FC's and the winning side doesn't double-hit any of them, the losing side only needs to double-hit some (if not all) finishers of ONE color to seal the game, even if they're behind by around 4x100, 12x100, or 25x100 or so. Basically, it's about double-hitting more than the opponent(s) without missing, with that section being in kiai time to further emphasize it. based on a true story

In v2, with the 4x alone (without the combo break), you can probably miss a few times mid-song and still get above your FC-ing opponent -- provided you double-hit enough finishers more than your opponent -- which makes it a much more severe penalty compared to v1, considering how combo is lighter compared to v1. But then again, where would the fun be when not double-hitting finishers ruins your combo-portion score just because there's this single-/double-hit registration issue and other related stuffs still lying around?
k3v227
Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14


This greatly impacts high-BPM play because sometimes it is very difficult for players to hit finishers with two fingers. Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix? You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".


It's one thing to want to change finishers because players are skinning them out or because they are choosing not to play them with two fingers. But it is wrong to have your combo break because you unable to play the finisher with two fingers. I think having x4 score for two fingers and x1 score for one finger is adequate incentive for players to play finishers with two fingers within their own ability.
Bramble

conor wrote:

please use this thread for what it was intended for instead of ignoring the massive red text in the first post

this mode will forever stay the same because of reasons like you lot

nobody was asking about your participation either but thanks for adding that comment in anyway
Can you stop being a shit. What are you gonna do, kill me because I forgot about red text I read 4 days ago?

Conor wrote:

animexamera wrote:
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?

how about you fuck off already and come back with something beneficial towards this new system?

the current system we have is bad and anybody who thinks otherwise is absolutely delusional

it might be a foreign concept to you but when enough people make their voice heard about certain things they get changed

basically quit being a shit and get the changes you want instead (which funnily enough are the ones almost everybody else wants and they're currently getting)
It's fine to correct us, but don't act like you're 3 while you do it. If you're gonna tell the internet you're 20 years old, then act like a fucking 20 year old.
karterfreak

k3v227 wrote:

Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14
Both of these examples are possible with any playstyle. There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.

k3v227 wrote:

Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix?
This is almost on equivalent of saying 300+bpm maps should be banned because lower skill level players can't play that fast, or that LN's shouldn't break combo in mania because some players can't hold notes while pressing others. To add to that, they most certainly CAN fix it by improving their skill at that mechanic (aka: 'getting good').

k3v227 wrote:

You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".
I'm still waiting to see a map that has impossible to hit finishers that isn't a convert. So far every map I've been linked is possible with proper reading and finger coordination. 300bpm+ is reaching an extremely fast speed for most players at high level (barring players like yu / applerss / a few others), so of course hitting finishers at that speed is hard, playing anything at that speed is hard irrelevant of finishers, especially considering the rules around them completely preventing players from having to (excuse mania terminology) do jacks at all unless there are multiple finishers in quick succession.

Now I want to say I do agree single hits shouldn't break combo so long as the 4x multiplier stays (to prevent breaking old plays if the new system does get put into place and for gimmick maps to still be possible to create), but can we please not use reasoning pertaining to some players not having the skill to do it as an argument?
Backfire
Thank you for editing your comment.
karterfreak
Barring one comment I made (will edit it out as it is unnecessary, was just stunned by the thought process), I have provided counterpoints, which isn't being aggressive. Also your 'truth' isn't everyone else's 'truth' about the situation. There are players who do think combo should break if you don't hit finishers and they're within their right to consider that fair and reasonable.

Anyways pertaining to the topic. Extremely eager to see fixes pushed for v2! I'll hold off on contributing anything more here until we see further changes going through / something new is discovered to be wrong as my thoughts so far are pretty apparent throughout the thread.
Bramble

Tasha wrote:

There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.
Just speaking of significantly harder maps, Harpuia
verto
Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Delthas
Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.

_verto_ wrote:

Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Something I wanted to suggest as well, even though I won't go as far as introducing 50s for this. The problem here is that even if you hit the note correctly, you would still get a 100 for it, which makes no sense. Perfect hits on finishers should always give 300, no matter if hit once or twice.

So far I am mostly for the 4x multiplier if hit twice and no combobreak if hit once. Another thought I had is to register 2 hits for combo as well if a finisher is hit twice (iirc it's even a thing rn). Idk how viable this idea is though.
Delthas

Ak1o wrote:

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko

Ak1o wrote:

But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.
i don't believe that i have any chance to make them cancel this new system even with the best arguments, and i don't think we can fix or modify the score v2 system enough so as to turn it back to the right direction for the game. i've lost any kind of hope regarding the possibility to cancel or fix this and i'm just wondering whether they'll give us at least a "score v1 mod" in order to be able to enjoy the game.
i don't really care that much since i'm going to make a copy of the game as it currently is and block the update servers in my hosts file so that the game never updates again. it's quite sad to have to do this but whatever. i'd make a fork of the game if it were open source but it's still almost entirely closed source so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
Edgar_Figaro
For the finisher idea I think there are a lot of different suggestions each with their merit. So maybe community should vote which they like best?

Option 1: increase score to 4x no combo break
Option 2: keep score 2x but have a 100 for a single button press (so still a 4 difference)
Option 3: make score 4x but have a 100 for single button press (8x total difference)
Option 4: make score 4x and a combo break but no miss for single button press
Option 5: Original concep 4x and a miss for one button press

Let me know if there was any other ideas thrown out that I miss. Also so slight variants don't split votes I say we vote twice. First time to narrow it down to two or three options and 2nd time to then pick from there
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