Ghost - Infestissumam

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Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Firstly, if you change SV you need to NC to hint that it's a different SV slider, easy concept, everyone is doing it, if BN ever come around and mod this they will tell you the same most likely. I don't feel like that would make a lot of sense with this map in particular, because I would literally have to NC during the middle of a word. Second of all, NC is obviously mostly used to differentiate between different parts of the song/melody, but if I added NC to nearly every single slider it would completely loose that function

While I'm on topic, having constant SV change is not wrong but the way you are spacing and placing your sliders doesn't suggest intuitive gameplay. NC could only help so much, the rest really lies on aesthetic consistency, you are really lacking in patterning, to group together ascending and descending intensity of the vocals, you're not making it easier for the for the players to recognize a pattern in the SV change, cause majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains, not saying you randomly placed them, I see there was an effort, but it is no where obvious enough for the players to actually feel intuitive to play. I'm very much aware that I could make it more intuitive for the first-time player of the map, but I would have to map it in a way that would fit the music less, or at least MY interpretation of the music. That's why it feels so intuitive to me, and I'm sure it would also feel intuitive to some people (at lest after a couple of tries so they know what is going on), but I am aware that no where near all people will find the map intuitive. To be honest, I don't really care.

Ok you might here say "it fits the music imo I have a love hate relationship with this word" and "it's not for intuitive game play, it's for fun", then I have two things to say:
  1. well fukin 1/2 note spams throughout the entire song is also fitting to the song that I know enough, that's why there's so many shitty brain dead effortless jump maps in the first place, "it fits imo" of course it fukin fits. The question is what do these sliders bring to the map, it's accurate hell yea I agree but how is this different from having constant SV sliders? try messing around with the sliders with constant 0.8-0.9 SV, it will play exactly the same. I'm honestly not quite sure what you are referring to here... "1/2 spams throughout the entire song" are you talking about this map? Jump maps in general? "What do these sliders bring to the map" what sliders? The ones in the intro, or the sliders in the rest of the song? I'm sorry, I might just be stupid, but I honestly don't know exactly what you are referring to...
  2. Ok even if you say that it makes a difference, how is that difference recognizable? Where's the consistency in inconsistency?
    00:01:243 (2,3,4) - these 3 sound exactly the same and you put 3 different SV in it, there's no background music to support a scaling intensity, the "climax " is not even strong enough to deserves a scaling intensity I'll be happy to explain my reasoning behind these: The first (and longest) slider of the three, comes on the first real beat of the song. It's also the "a big white tick" or however you wanna put it, so since it's such a strong beat, I want to emphasize it a lot. The next slider is much less significant, it's not on a strong beat and it's the second syllable of a word. The last slider is a new word, and I feel like it's generally a bit more significant than the previous beat, so it has a SV somewhere in between the two previous ones. At the same time, this slider kinda leads on towards the next slide, increasing the intensity a tiny bit, thought it's only just noticeable when playing.
    00:04:014 (1,2,3) - these a practically lower pitch version of 00:01:243 (2,3,4) - but why the SV change patterning is different? Because of the context. These sliders come after the melody jumps to notes that are significantly deeper than the previous, which is why I start of with a low SV, and just before a jump to significantly higher notes, which is why I increase the intensity.
    00:12:443 (1,2,3) - same thing This pretty much follows the same pattern as your previous point, but compared to the first point, these are the first notes after a long break. In the beginning of the first note, you can clearly hear, that the first syllable isn't very clear, and this in my opinion makes it sound weak, which is my reason for using a lower SV. Then I increase the SV to build up to the increase in pitch in the song.
    00:13:854 (4) - higher pitch higher SV right? right? oh nvm it's lower SV Only a few of the notes in the intro last for longer than one beat, this is one of the few that don't. I have consistently emphasized these notes with very low SV, to force the player to really linger on those notes.
    Like I'm trying hard to find a consistent reasoning behind your SV change, like how articulation, tonality and other stuff, stuff like 00:07:275 (2,3) - how you use constant SV for emphasis in articulation, but articulation wasn't a major role in the vocals so it wasn't enough to justify the randomness of the rest. THIS is what Massive meant by "it looks super clunky and super random" I get that it might look random, but as I said, everything is thought through and is justifiable, and I firmly believe that all this will result in a map that is intuitive to players that either A: knows the song well, or B: has played the map a few times and knows it well.

Like I get you're trying to be creative and original but this is really lack luster and underwhelming, I could go longer onto how you could extend the idea of "basing SV on intensity" and apply it to your 1/2 note spam but you clearly haven't found an effective formula to actually apply it consistently throughout the map yet, thus the feeling of randomness, you're not taking the idea far enough. I'm not trying to be anything. I'm trying to make the most enjoyable map I possibly can, and I think this is close to that. I have reasons to map the way I do, and I see no reason to use techniques that people might consider "basic mapping". Stuff like "aesthetic" and "good patterns" and even "consistency", I have not seen a proper reason why I should apply stuff like this to my maps, and frankly I don't think I ever will

I highly suggest you actually sit down and make a consistent looking map, cause here's an analogy: "to be sure that you're answering perfectly incorrect to a question, you must know the perfect answer for that question", to map something abnormal you must know how to map something normal in the first place. After that you can alter what's fundamental in normal map and alter it consistently in the map that's really how HW get away with bullshit SV change, it's consistent and obvious, both aesthetically and playing wise. But I'm just not trying to map something abnormal. I'm not trying to map something normal either. I just want to map something good. If something makes sense to me, I will apply it, if it doesn't I won't. I never think "what's a weird/interesting/unique way to map this" I simply think "What is the best way to map this". Or "How can I best map this, to it reflects my interpretation of the song.

but one things for sure and yes it's an insult, but BNs/QATs wouldn't even touch your map if your slider art stays this way and I'm 99% sure about it. unless you made it consistently like how monstrata did with alien, but look how that map turned out and you can't pull it off cause you don't even know how to make good looking map in the eyes of the majority Yes I do realize I'm a fukin hypocrite for saying this. Well, I hope BNs/QATs would judge my map on it's own merits, but to be honest, I don't really care about if they will like it or not. Heck, I wouldn't even mind too much if nobody likes my map. And to be honest, I've never understood why people give a fuck about maps being "good looking".

I hope my trust in your stubbornness is good enough to not demotivate you from mapping Not sure exactly what you mean, but my stubbornness will probably always make sure I won't be demotivated from mapping :)

I probably don't even need to KDS I just want to see red text all over my rant, Nah, I don't mind giving Kudosu to people who actually put a lot of thought and effort into their mods. And even though this mod barely focused on this map in particular, you pointed out as many things as Mazziv did, and fleshed them out more, besides everything else that you wrote.
N0thingSpecial
I think I can see where your problem lies, I think you will ultimately disagree with me, but essentially you're using too much "it fits the music" and not looking at the bigger picture too much, ok you say you want to make a good map, essentially you want people to play your map and think "hey that was fun I want to play that again", my comment that you're confused about is what I'm saying here. It fits doesn't equal to it's fun. If you want to include non-meta slider SV changes for the sake of "it fits", that sounds fun on paper but in the end if people can't recognize that there's a consistency in those non-meta slider SV changes, they would ultimately find it random despite it fits the music 100% perfectly.

people don't play the map because "it fits" otherwise there would only be one difficulty on each song, and those 23 diff spread mapsets wouldn't exist. That's why I said "majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains", nobody gives a shit about YOUR interpretation, people only care about how you pattern the map accordingly to the song so that it would provide a consistent and dynamic experience to the song. You understanding the song doesn't mean players will understand the same way, how you let the players learn the song through your interpretation is the point here, focusing on how individual sliders and notes correspond to the specific sound in the music doesn't help them understand the song, patterning and aesthetic will

if it's only one person is thinking it's random it might be his fault, but when several people tell you something feels random there has to be a reason behind it, all of your arguments are about "how I think it's a good interpretation" and not exactly countering our concerns for it feeling random, we feel that it's random cause there's not a central big idea revolving around how you interpret it in the first place, we're not concerned with is your interpretation on individual notes are correct or not.
Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I think I can see where your problem lies, I think you will ultimately disagree with me, but essentially you're using too much "it fits the music" and not looking at the bigger picture too much, ok you say you want to make a good map, essentially you want people to play your map and think "hey that was fun I want to play that again", my comment that you're confused about is what I'm saying here. It fits doesn't equal to it's fun. If you want to include non-meta slider SV changes for the sake of "it fits", that sounds fun on paper but in the end if people can't recognize that there's a consistency in those non-meta slider SV changes, they would ultimately find it random despite it fits the music 100% perfectly.

people don't play the map because "it fits" otherwise there would only be one difficulty on each song, and those 23 diff spread mapsets wouldn't exist. That's why I said "majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains", nobody gives a shit about YOUR interpretation, people only care about how you pattern the map accordingly to the song so that it would provide a consistent and dynamic experience to the song. You understanding the song doesn't mean players will understand the same way, how you let the players learn the song through your interpretation is the point here, focusing on how individual sliders and notes correspond to the specific sound in the music doesn't help them understand the song, patterning and aesthetic will

if it's only one person is thinking it's random it might be his fault, but when several people tell you something feels random there has to be a reason behind it, all of your arguments are about "how I think it's a good interpretation" and not exactly countering our concerns for it feeling random, we feel that it's random cause there's not a central big idea revolving around how you interpret it in the first place, we're not concerned with is your interpretation on individual notes are correct or not.
I feel like the general confusion comes from my intention with my map. First of all, I might not have been clear about this, but when I map, I want to make a map that I consider good. What other people think about the map, is second priority by a huge margin. Of course, if people point something out they don't like, and I can honestly say "yeah, I changed that, and I think it's better now", I will change it, but ultimately I will never change anything that I don't fully agree with.
This is the way I treat all kinds of art, not just beatmapping.

I think the second point that can be made here, is the difference between (and I'm paraphrasing) "maps that plays well and maps that are made to get an emotional response in the player", which Charles445 discussed in his podcast. My map definitely falls into the latter category. I think it's a bit silly to suggest, that the only way a map can be "good" is if it's fun. If a map makes you sad, is it a fun map? Of course not, but you still probably had an enjoyable experience playing the map. That's what I want to achieve with my map, I want people to be emotionally invested in the song and my map.

And the point about the map not having a central idea around it, it would be nice if you could elaborate (if you want to, I won't blame you if you don't want to continue with this discussion), because honestly, I see more of a central idea in my map, than I do in many ranked maps.
N0thingSpecial
You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
It's really quite simple. I'm the most important player when it comes to playing my map. And this is honestly how I would say any good artist should be working, no matter what kind of art he is making. If people don't work this way, you get pop music. That's my theory anyway.

And if people can't figure out my map, so what. It's their problem. And even if people don't understand my map, I have still gotten useful feedback, three out of four mods so far has resulted in direct changes to the map (still not counting mazzivs mod). And as it turns out, there are apparently people that like my map: so far I have two favourites on it. It's not much, but if we follow your logic, that it's only public opinion that matters, that's better than your Utopiosphere map, because even though my map has less than 1/4 of the views your map has, it has 2 favourites compared to your map's 4 (one of the favuorites being mine, because honestly it's a great map).

At the end of the day, the only conclusion that can be reached, is that mapping is objective. I know this is not really very conclusive, but really that's the reality of it. I make the maps that I like. I then hope that other people will enjoy the maps as much as I do, however that's not my main priority. Beatmapping can be a beautiful art form, that can lead to a interactive musical experience I haven't had anywhere else. And it's expressing myself through my maps I enjoy doing. And if I make something I'm really happy with of course I want to share it with the world.

Edit: And when it comes to explaining my idea with this map, I can probably do it in one word: progression.
Mazziv

jawns wrote:

I might not have been clear about this, but when I map, I want to make a map that I consider good. What other people think about the map, is second priority by a huge margin.
If your second priority is the opinion from people,why do you request mods?
Like if YOU consider a map you made good,doesnt mean it actually is good at all. (until you have alot of mapping experience)
Modding is there to get someone elses opinion and by saying ''mapping is objective'' you make it sound like you dont care anyway and just dont accept stuff that doesnt fit in your ''intention with my map'' idea.
Sure,everyone sees stuff differently but if the map lacks in quality(and it does in my opinion) and you have gotten like 3 mods yet,you should think about the stuff thats been pointed out and WHY the modders pointing it out.
As you can see,N0thingSpecial pointed stuff out simular stuff as me,so there-may-be-something-wrong-with-it.
Im not saying that you dont have to accept every suggestions you get,but according to your profile you have little mapping expierence,which is totally fine,but if more than 1 person is pointing something out really should consider the suggestion.
Im used to a mid to high quality level in terms of modding,and imo this map is not even close to those levels.
So i dont know what you expect. In my opinion this map looks like a total mess and my opinion wont change,no matter what reason you bring up to defend your map.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
apparently jawns is from 2020 and brings the future mapping. ;)
N0thingSpecial
Firstly, subjective is the word you're looking for, otherwise mapping would all look the same.

Secondly, subjectivity is not the conclusion, it is just the start, tbh nearly everything is subjective aside from stuff like circle size , approach rate, if everything is subjective, that means everything is up to interpretation, which imply there's no conclusive opinion can be form on any map and the word subjectivity would lose meaning itself, and you can theoretically indulge in your own interpretation as long as you want. Realistically it doesn't work that way, subjectivity would still need to face real life implications in order to be useful. the real life implication of mapping is the modding process, it is to ensure that your interpretation can be solidify by a relatively objective perspective, to make sure your map has good flow, pattern, aesthetics, spacing, emphasis, polarity, consistency , timing and a fuck ton of other guidelines we came up with, ultimately to ensure quality under the context of your interpretation. So if you put your map in the modding process you should recognise the coexistence of subjectivity and objectivity. Basically my point is if your interpretation is getting in the way of the quality of the map i think you should just be mapping for grave, people can still like your map but it is definitely not for rank. This is the same thing as "there's no rigt or wrong" but in a realistic modern society we still heavily protect our belief in the legal system.
Condyle
00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - nice map
brdzxh
>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
Mordred

09simp wrote:

00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - remap MiniK
this guy knows
Topic Starter
jawns

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
I feel like people don't understand, I really enjoy my map. And I'm not going to change things, just so other people will enjoy it more.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate feedback. My mapping is not perfect, and people are very welcome to give advice on how I can make my map more enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I have to follow that advice, if I think it will make my map less enjoyable. And as I pointed out, so far 3/4 mods have resulted in changes in the map.

And I'm well aware I know fuck all about mapping. But I know what I like...
Mazziv

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu
brdzxh

jawns wrote:

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
I feel like people don't understand, I really enjoy my map. And I'm not going to change things, just so other people will enjoy it more.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate feedback. My mapping is not perfect, and people are very welcome to give advice on how I can make my map more enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I have to follow that advice, if I think it will make my map less enjoyable. And as I pointed out, so far 3/4 mods have resulted in changes in the map.

And I'm well aware I know fuck all about mapping. But I know what I like...
>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevant
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesn't add up :?:
Bara-
> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
Arni

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
This guy knows
Topic Starter
jawns

brdzxh wrote:

>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevent
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesnt add up :?:
wtf, where did you get that from? Did I ever say suggestions are irrelevant/useless? I appreciate feedback, and criticism, though I don't always agree with it. I just don't see why I should as a default agree with every suggestion thrown my way. But as I said, 3 mods have already resulted in the map being changed. Only slightly, but it's still changes.
There's really only two problems I've had with mods so far. Only two kinds of mods, where I would say the suggestions are "irrelevant". The first one is when people don't explain why something I mapped doesn't work. Or more importantly, why their suggestion works better.
The other problem is the people (or person) who literally says "remap everything". You would never hear anybody say that to any other kind of artist would you? If a musician asked you for criticism, and you reply "you need to change all the notes". A lot of heart, soul and effort went into that map, I'm not just going to change everything. Small changes I can get behind (sometimes), stuff that doesn't completely change the way the map is made, but if you ask me to make major changes, I feel like you are just disrespecting the whole concept of the map.
Now, just because your advice doesn't fit into either of those categories doesn't mean I will automatically agree with it. At the end of the day, if I think the suggestion makes the map worse, I won't add it to the map.

But in short, this is roughly what the process of this map has been like:
>finish a map I'm really happy with
>post this map to the forums, ask for feedback
>to a lot of the feedback I think "that's a cool suggestion, but I honestly like it better as it is"
>to some feedback I think "yeah, that makes sense, I'm going to change that"
>the map is steadily improving, while the original concept/feel/qualities of the map remains

> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
First of all, don't pay too much attention to the name, it's just kind of there as a placeholder/joke...

Second of all, I don't automatically deny every single suggestion, far from it (unless it's stupid stuff like "remap everything". I think about every piece of feedback I receive, but as I said, that doesn't mean I will ultimately agree with them. I have a reason to place every single note where it's placed, and thus I have a reason to deny every suggestion I have denied, especially if you didn't provide a reason for me to follow your suggestion in the first place.

And I do realize that modders can be discouraged because of the fact that I deny a lot of suggestions. And for that I am sorry, but nobody is obligated to mod my map, and I won't be upset if people decide not to. But I still appreciate feedback, and I am thankful for every suggestion that I get, especially if it results in a change however small it may be. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...

And when it comes to not following the advice of more experience mappers, I have a few reasons. First of all, I feel like even the most experienced person can be wrong, especially when it comes to something as subjective as art.
But probably more importantly, I think my map is better. I'm not saying my map has "higher quality" of that it's what "the community would consider a good map", all I'm saying is that I enjoy playing my maps more than I enjoy playing their maps. And honestly, I think my maps are more fun than most ranked maps as well...
Mordred

jawns wrote:

brdzxh wrote:

>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevent
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesnt add up :?:
wtf, where did you get that from? Did I ever say suggestions are irrelevant/useless? I appreciate feedback, and criticism, though I don't always agree with it. I just don't see why I should as a default agree with every suggestion thrown my way. But as I said, 3 mods have already resulted in the map being changed. Only slightly, but it's still changes.
There's really only two problems I've had with mods so far. Only two kinds of mods, where I would say the suggestions are "irrelevant". The first one is when people don't explain why something I mapped doesn't work. Or more importantly, why their suggestion works better.
The other problem is the people (or person) who literally says "remap everything". You would never hear anybody say that to any other kind of artist would you? If a musician asked you for criticism, and you reply "you need to change all the notes". A lot of heart, soul and effort went into that map, I'm not just going to change everything. Small changes I can get behind (sometimes), stuff that doesn't completely change the way the map is made, but if you ask me to make major changes, I feel like you are just disrespecting the whole concept of the map.
Now, just because your advice doesn't fit into either of those categories doesn't mean I will automatically agree with it. At the end of the day, if I think the suggestion makes the map worse, I won't add it to the map.

But in short, this is roughly what the process of this map has been like:
>finish a map I'm really happy with
>post this map to the forums, ask for feedback
>to a lot of the feedback I think "that's a cool suggestion, but I honestly like it better as it is"
>to some feedback I think "yeah, that makes sense, I'm going to change that"
>the map is steadily improving, while the original concept/feel/qualities of the map remains

> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
First of all, don't pay too much attention to the name, it's just kind of there as a placeholder/joke...

Second of all, I don't automatically deny every single suggestion, far from it (unless it's stupid stuff like "remap everything". I think about every piece of feedback I receive, but as I said, that doesn't mean I will ultimately agree with them. I have a reason to place every single note where it's placed, and thus I have a reason to deny every suggestion I have denied, especially if you didn't provide a reason for me to follow your suggestion in the first place.

And I do realize that modders can be discouraged because of the fact that I deny a lot of suggestions. And for that I am sorry, but nobody is obligated to mod my map, and I won't be upset if people decide not to. But I still appreciate feedback, and I am thankful for every suggestion that I get, especially if it results in a change however small it may be. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...

And when it comes to not following the advice of more experience mappers, I have a few reasons. First of all, I feel like even the most experienced person can be wrong, especially when it comes to something as subjective as art.
But probably more importantly, I think my map is better. I'm not saying my map has "higher quality" of that it's what "the community would consider a good map", all I'm saying is that I enjoy playing my maps more than I enjoy playing their maps. And honestly, I think my maps are more fun than most ranked maps as well...
lol
Mazziv
just stop it guys,its no use lol
egg and cheese

Mazziv wrote:

just stop it guys,its no use lol
i cannot agree more with this, mapper's mindset is also important =w=

in a future note: dont ask mods if your maps are in your opinion good enough, denying everything just makes u look like a complete douchebag
N0thingSpecial

jawns wrote:

. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...
Considering the idea you had was represented in a very vague and unorganised manner I wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't understand
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