I think it depends on framerate, too. Testing HR+Relax on my laptop, I need HP3.6 or lower to pass the butterfly sliders, but some people have reported luck with 3.8 or 3.9 - I'll test this more when I get home in a few hours.
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i fail to confirm that map is impossible to hr
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5682945
im guessing i could pass it because slider leniency i had is more because of cs0, but i *think* its possible to pass with cs 4.5 hr too
edit: its definitely because of cs0, so this proves nothing at all, we still need an actual cs4.5 hr pass
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5682945
im guessing i could pass it because slider leniency i had is more because of cs0, but i *think* its possible to pass with cs 4.5 hr too
edit: its definitely because of cs0, so this proves nothing at all, we still need an actual cs4.5 hr pass
another 2nd survivor
right now there's so much conflicting information that it becomes hard to find out what is different in this map to others. Could it be different osu! versions or different settings? Could it be framerate dependant? Or could it just be flat out luck or incapability/capability on some people's side?
return soon ez heroMillhioreF wrote:
I think it depends on framerate, too. Testing HR+Relax on my laptop, I need HP3.6 or lower to pass the butterfly sliders, but some people have reported luck with 3.8 or 3.9 - I'll test this more when I get home in a few hours.
that's not true, though. play a fast enough slider by holding only the start and the very end and you'll end up getting 100s anyway(might be dependent on framerate... or whether the slider isn't fast enough). Ekoro's shoe has a slider like this at the end which demonstrates that it doesn't necessarily mean i'm not hitting the sliderstart. spamming as hard as i can on a map with the current butterfly sliders on HT also results in a ton of 100s.Monstrata wrote:
This doesn't actually change how the slider is played though. The reason you're getting 100's isn't because of the slider's path, its the notelocking and slider-head window. Whether I have zigzags on the body or not, it won't affect the outcome because only the slider-head, and slider-tail are being factored in.
on my diff, that effect is somewhat alleviated(and could probably be done away with entirely with a well researched implementation). that's why i can pass it, and not the original.
e: in this video, look at how he aims at the fast circular sliders; he's not aiming at the exact end, but a bit further into it. that's a strategy that i think demonstrates what kind of aiming is required to 300 extremely fast sliders like this.
in all cases i'm aware of, the HP drain can only increase because of this, which is also true for the case you just mentioned. i doubt it has an effect on my edit, since i can pass it just fine even if that effect is present here.Monstrata wrote:
You mentioned deleting half of the map. That seriously affects HP drain too though. HP drain is really complex because it also takes into account the entire map's object density, as well as the NC frequency in the map, so removing half of the map already skews the HP drain substantially when comparing it to the full version. (Think of Cookiezi's spinner fail on my Road of Resistance map, except so much of the map was deleted, along with NC rhythms, that the map ended up draining more than it was supposed to. Here the song is shorter, and you've only deleted half, and not 95% so HP drain should be higher than it actually is).
i also can't tell if there's a difference in HP between my practice diff for the original sliders and the full map. either way, i don't think it can be done, which is why i'm suggesting it be changed in the first place.
Have people tried placing their cursor such that you barely hit the sliderhead, but your cursor is further inside the sliderbody on the sliderend side? Also, is the only strat for this basically just mashing as fast as they can? Controlled streaming might work as well as long as you hold down your keys long enough.
Although all that's just speculation; I don't have the ability to playtest right now
Although all that's just speculation; I don't have the ability to playtest right now
this is accurate enough streaming to be unaffected by notelock(i don't have to do any extra taps, i hit the final circle), and i still can't do it
Got home and did some more tests of my own - it's mostly unaffected by framerate (I have maybe one or two extra 300s on 0.7ms vs 4.2ms) and almost definitely impossible - I used relax to ensure notelock didn't happen. Maybe hitting early changes the outcome slightly, but I still doubt it.
HP3.6 seems to be right around the border of possibility - the bar empties right as you hit the next note, so I'm not sure if it's a pass or not. HP3.5 is definitely passable, though.
I'll ask some people higher up in the chain how they feel about this, but I strongly suggest implementing something like in -GN's difficulty; disallowing an entire difficulty-increasing mod is just mean in my opinion.
HP3.6 seems to be right around the border of possibility - the bar empties right as you hit the next note, so I'm not sure if it's a pass or not. HP3.5 is definitely passable, though.
I'll ask some people higher up in the chain how they feel about this, but I strongly suggest implementing something like in -GN's difficulty; disallowing an entire difficulty-increasing mod is just mean in my opinion.
Topic Starter
The GN slider-thing is just not something I want to do 
. And HP 3.5 is too low for me to feel comfortable with implementing. Play this on nomod please. The entire butterfly animation is lost when you turn on HR and I think that's the highlight of this map. Having it flipped just looks really weird for me. The animation is set up so that the butterfly will spread its wings and appear to fly. That whole effect is lost when you have it upside down. It's not that I don't want this to be passable on HR, but I'm not going to make an exception for it especially since the map takes a huge aesthetic hit when the HR mod is applied.
If you want a challenge, there are plenty of other maps to play where HR doesn't actually mess up the aesthetic value of the map to such a degree.
. And HP 3.5 is too low for me to feel comfortable with implementing. Play this on nomod please. The entire butterfly animation is lost when you turn on HR and I think that's the highlight of this map. Having it flipped just looks really weird for me. The animation is set up so that the butterfly will spread its wings and appear to fly. That whole effect is lost when you have it upside down. It's not that I don't want this to be passable on HR, but I'm not going to make an exception for it especially since the map takes a huge aesthetic hit when the HR mod is applied.If you want a challenge, there are plenty of other maps to play where HR doesn't actually mess up the aesthetic value of the map to such a degree.
why not? it's the perfect compromise here... i want it to be possible to HR the full map, that's all. nobody's gonna think worse of your map just because the butterfly sliders are upside down when played with a difficulty modifier the map wasn't intended for. the effect isn't lost, you can make out it's a butterfly even if it's upside down, there's nothing wrong with it.Monstrata wrote:
The GN slider-thing is just not something I want to do
please apply my slider concept. there's nothing wrong with it.
To be honest, I appreciate the aesthetic value of this map and don't plan on playing it with HR, but the only thing that's gonna change if you don't nerf the HP drain is the fact that your map is going to have lots of HRNF scores instead of HR ones.
Topic Starter
It really looks bad on Auto cuz you end up seeing it vibrating up and down instead of seeing auto just playing through the whole thing. Also its really hard to set up the overlaps (the ones you have are no where near good, sorry). And the sliders look horrible on HR, that's my call as a mapper. It needs to be upright for you to really appreciate the shape. As well, it needs to be expanding upward, not downward.
Sorry, that's my final decision. No HR.
Sorry, that's my final decision. No HR.
If you're playing on unlimited, the breaks do force you back down to your frame limiter. Just gotta eat that though, or set a custom frame limiter high enough that you don't notice the drop (or don't play on unlimited)
On an unrelated note, Millhi, I beat your minesweeper time.
This map is truly amazing
IMO the slider heads (not the tails tho) should have a louder hitsound in the slider spam sections so that the player at least has some sound feedback to keep rhythm. other than that, awesome map and I'm so excited to see something like this qualified
2016, when how the map looks is more important than how the map plays.
And I'm not talking about the "unrankable" things, I know it's an Aspire map
And I'm not talking about the "unrankable" things, I know it's an Aspire map
very, very, very good.
can you actually lower the hp so then you can pass it with hr
one of the rules say "The map must be able to be completed without the NoFail mod required to pass it" and does not limit itself to nomod
sometimes its better to do what the community wants, even when the mapper wants his own way, especially now when it only affects HP and not the actual mapped part of the map
one of the rules say "The map must be able to be completed without the NoFail mod required to pass it" and does not limit itself to nomod
sometimes its better to do what the community wants, even when the mapper wants his own way, especially now when it only affects HP and not the actual mapped part of the map
lol the rule just says that it needs to be passed without nofail mod, there's literally nothing that says it needs to be passable with other mods
Uhm, the rule exactly only says "without the NoFail mod", and doesn't mention any other mods... though admittedly, it'd be cooler if you can use any mod you want to pass the map.idke wrote:
one of the rules say "The map must be able to be completed without the NoFail mod required to pass it" and does not limit itself to nomod
(or did I miss something?)
naw fam
HR can sometimes destroy the concept & thought behind the map. I think this is applicable here.
If Monstrata does not want to change the HP just for that, I feel that you have to respect his choice. You can always edit HP yourself if you want to play HR so bad.
Good job and congrats. You deserved it.
If Monstrata does not want to change the HP just for that, I feel that you have to respect his choice. You can always edit HP yourself if you want to play HR so bad.
Good job and congrats. You deserved it.
I'm with monstrata in this case, the map won for the design and creativity in no mod, while mods are an important thing in game... in this case I think reducing the hp do more bad than good, since HR destroy the visuals of the map o.o.. and considering this is an aspire map, I guess is better to keep the mapper's way.
Generally maps are designed to be played on NoMod, therefore the argument HR doesn't work for this map is invalid. That's why the point "The map must be able to be completed without the NoFail mod required to pass it" is mentioned because that's hilarious if a ranked map can only be played with a score reduce or has a mod requirement to be played properly.
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
izeraoS
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the point i'm trying my hardest to make is that while it's not a requirement(even though i'd argue it should be), limiting the players because of the HP mechanic is a bullshit thing to do, as it removes an entire way to enjoy the map, and simply limits the challenge of the map for no good reason.Stefan wrote:
Generally maps are designed to be played on NoMod, therefore the argument HR doesn't work for this map is invalid.
i'm terribly sorry for saying this, but you have no basis for this - you're a rank 130k player. you don't get to claim this map isn't well suited for HR. 6 stars is way outside of your ability to judge playability of maps. because that's what you're doing, right?Stefan wrote:
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
the map doesn't suddenly flip upside down when you're on nomod if the sliders are altered to allow HR passes, using the concept i illustrated earlier. the intended experience of the map does not change in this case, i just don't think players should be limited in this way.Natsu wrote:
I'm with monstrata in this case, the map won for the design and creativity in no mod, while mods are an important thing in game... in this case I think reducing the hp do more bad than good, since HR destroy the visuals of the map o.o.. and considering this is an aspire map, I guess is better to keep the mapper's way.
it's not the same thing. you should realize this. you remove the possibility of any HR scores reaching the top scores set on the map, an achievement that should (ideally) reflect the effort/ability put into the map by the players.appleeaterx wrote:
If Monstrata does not want to change the HP just for that, I feel that you have to respect his choice. You can always edit HP yourself if you want to play HR so bad.
come on. the strongest reason argued against this is "it looks weird/different when auto plays GN's quickly edited proof of concept", which i should add, can be done in a much more tasteful way if you alter the zigzag to cover a smaller area. is that REALLY all the reason you need to deny me?
Topic Starter
No, the main reason is that I don't want to lower the HP. It's already low enough so that you only need some skill to pass the map. Most people 30k can eventually pass this map. Any lower and there's literally no penalty to messing up any of the elements I've used. If you can just pass everything, theres no challenge to different patterns, and it makes the map less memorable. You are far too high ranked to appreciate slowly getting through different stages of a map in an effort to finally get a run that passes it.
We've said all thats needed to be said about this discussion, and my decision remains clear: HP will not be lowered. Thanks for your concerns though, but I'd appreciate if you didn't go into this discussion expecting a change.
We've said all thats needed to be said about this discussion, and my decision remains clear: HP will not be lowered. Thanks for your concerns though, but I'd appreciate if you didn't go into this discussion expecting a change.
don't tell me you forgot about the slider science already. i'm not talking about HP.
i'm also not "expecting" anything. i'm just trying my damn hardest to convince you your map should be passable on HR.
that's rude. i'll have you know i had trouble passing apparition up until i finally did it yesterday night.Monstrata wrote:
You are far too high ranked to appreciate slowly getting through different stages of a map in an effort to finally get a run that passes it.
i'm also not "expecting" anything. i'm just trying my damn hardest to convince you your map should be passable on HR.
Topic Starter
No, I don't want to implement those sliders. What I have works, and creating those up/down vibration movements is not something I want do implement. Additionally the entire slider thing is extremely hard to implement correctly. You can already see how off your slider-ends are when you look at them in editor, and thats already overlooking how unprecise the nodes are. You can't just zigzag them, they have to be perfectly vertical, or the butterfly body's horizontal vibrations, which simulate it fluttering, are completely covered. Something like this requires .osu editing in order to properly implement, and it additionally would have to be applied to every butterfly slider. Also, it would look really bad anyways because the up/down movement can be seen in editor and on HT. I'm not going to implement it. It's far too tedious and time consuming to implement it just to satisfy a few HR players who won't even be playing the sliders how I wanted them played.
if you can't pass a literal impossible map with a mod, theres no challenge or a point to playing the map. really, there isnt a point to not let someone play a mod that was clearly implemented in the game to give experienced players a bigger challenge, even when it ruins the aesthetic value for a map because lets face it, it ruins the aesthetic value for every single map, and not only do most players not even give a single shit about the looks or beauty of the map, they mostly care about having it be playable. really, changing the hp to 3.5 or so won't make it less memorable, because though passing will be somehow easier, achieving a combo will still be as challengingMonstrata wrote:
If you can just pass everything, theres no challenge to different patterns, and it makes the map less memorable.
^
I don't get why players must go out of their way to convince mostrata that this map needs to be HR-able. Is the standard gamemode having a map deficit? You ran out of things to HR? You keep knocking on a door to a club that will not open for you because it is not for you. I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
TL;DR: Have some taste
TL;DR: Have some taste
Why is it being pushed in to the core ranking system when it is very clearly not made for that? If you can't play this map properly in ranked, then it does not belong in ranked. In no way should an artists vision obstruct the core gameplay in a way that this clearly seems to. You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.abraker wrote:
I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
Ninmi wrote:
Why is it being pushed in to the core ranking system when it is very clearly not made for that? If you can't play this map properly in ranked, then it does not belong in ranked. In no way should an artists vision obstruct the core gameplay in a way that this clearly seems to. You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.abraker wrote:
I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
Because this won the Aspire contest? Literally the whole concept of the Aspire contest is to break practically all rules of mapping. And as i've been told by other "mappers" - "As long as it plays nomod, then what's the issue"