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About ¨Request a Disqualification here.¨ thread

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Topic Starter
Natsu
Seems that the user Cherry Blossom did some changes on how the thread work on his own, and Bakari told us to continue the discussion on different thread, that's why I made this one.

Is really wrong to post our concerns about qualify maps? because seems that is what the mentioned user is encouraging in his post: p/5032035 because as I far I understand the current system works by posting your concerns and posible improvements, not by posting only obviously errors.

I believe in what Irreversible wrote: p/5032082 , so I want someone to clarify all this, or if the user mentioned have some kind of power to say how the things will work or he is only editing the thread arbitrarily.

Edit:
Seems Irrevesible made a new thread: t/442480
Avishay
It's not wrong but keep in mind that you might be wrong at some points, disallowing a set to be pushed forward because of your personal view is wrong.
Topic Starter
Natsu

Avishay wrote:

It's not wrong but keep in mind that you might be wrong at some points, disallowing a set to be pushed forward because of your personal view is wrong.
as far I see in that threath there was 2 mods, one done by a BN user and one by a community user, with the current state of the ranking system of DQ first and Discuss later, is fine, since both user have concerns about the map. Mods are always under personal view so you can't say its wrong. What we should complain is the lack of QAT moderation when a DQ happens. But as far I know there is nothing wrong with modding a qualified map.
Nozhomi
Modding a qualified map can't be bad, improvement is good and you can't blame anyone about trying to do so. However I follow what Yuii- said on the concerned thread : a QAT should check if what have been pointed is worth the DQ or not than just say "something happend here so let's DQ". If someone comes with a different view of the map and says it's wrong but nothing is bad and already clean, it shouldn't be DQ so easiely. That's all.
Monstrata
Honestly, these changes shouldn't be made by people who haven't been very active in the modding community. It's become very clear that QAT's no longer have a presence in the qualified section. If you are actively checking/bubbling/qualifying maps, you'll notice that QAT's nowadays almost exclusively disqualify maps based on either: metadata, AiMod, AiBat and/or Modding Assistant related issues. This is a problem if you want to maintain a quality standard above "rankable".

The current disqualification process is heavily based on members of the community pointing out subjective issues and reporting them to the Disqualification thread. At present, I can't speak for other BN's, but right now I only expect QAT's to check for objectively unrankable issues.
and whether a Normal should be renamed to Advanced


Because of this, there is a lot more leniency and freedom in terms of quality standards. Mappers are able to map more freely to how they envision their maps to look, and BN's don't feel as concerned about qualifying these maps because as long as they are 100% objectively rankable, concerns raised by the community can be debated and rejected. It may take a disqualification, but DQ"s are no longer absolute and no longer demand a certain change. What this means is that no matter how low quality a map may appear for someone, as long as the mapper explains their viewpoint, they are not obligated to fix anything, and the current system will allow them free passage.

Lets not forget about situations like this where even despite a mapper being willing to make changes to their map, the map ended up not getting disqualified. Nothing about Side's mod pointed out objectively unrankable issues. That doesn't mean it wasn't helpful. Actually, Anxient even replied to the mod and was ready to fix a very large portion of the issues brought up. Stuff like this should not be discouraged. Rather, it should be encouraged because with a clear lack of QAT presence, this is currently the best way to improve the quality standard of maps flowing into the game.

I think CB's intentions were to discourage Modders/BN's from being "wannabe QAT's" and making these post-disqualification mods with the intention of getting maps disqualified. While stuff like that does happen, I really believe that the majority of post-disqualification mods aren't done to spite anyone. It's when you have cases where a certain modder/BN goes out of their way to say something like "whoever helped push this map forward should be removed from the group" that disrespectful and spiteful attitudes begin to surface. So yes, I can relate to CB's intentions for changing the wording, because it does try to prevent stuff like dq'ing for the sake of dq'ing from occurring, however I feel it's doing more harm than good.

You can compare the wording of stuff like p/4715351 where the modder is very harsh, always asking the mapper to explain themselves, and going out of their way to say that their very lengthy mod post only took them 20 minutes to do. These kinds of mods are often problem-based, as in they try to point out problems in the maps.

Compare it to stuff like p/4871584 or p/4916184 or p/4916778 where the mods, while pointing out problems, also offer solutions and alternatives and even mapping tips for future reference.

Anyways, what do you guys think? I'm personally rather neutral to post-disqualification mods. I know i've expressed dissent with them in the past, because some post-dq mods look like a bunch of nazi issues that seem to be done for the sake of dq's. However, as of recently, more adept and knowledgeable BN's have been taking the time to check and make these same mods, to the benefit of the mapper. I think this is the best way to preserve a standard of mapping above rankable, while still allowing mappers breathing room to explain and discuss their intentions.
Mint
Just don't go ultra nazi and everything's fine. If it gets DQ'ed, so be it. If those extra days really affect the mapper personally, that'd be a strange attitude coming from the mappers' side.

Pretty sure everyone in the team can decide for themselves whether they are purposely looking for every little detail, or if they are actually trying to bring up issues with good intentions. As long as your personal matters won't get involved and everything is looked from an objective side, I don't see the problem with DQs happening frequently - even for smaller issues as long they make sense.

DQs are a good thing, as long it still makes sense and can improve the mapset in any way possible.
Kibbleru
imo qats should be checking these posts and asking themselves 'is this really worth a dq'
because stuff like nc and minor hitsound/nazi spacing issues should not be worth a dq..

also i dont want to acuse any1 but i honestly feel that some people feel more obliged to mod maps after they are qualified, which is wrong, as you should mod them b4 they get qualified instead.
Okoayu

Kibbleru wrote:

imo qats should be checking these posts and asking themselves 'is this really worth a dq'
because stuff like nc and minor hitsound/nazi spacing issues should not be worth a dq..

also i dont want to acuse any1 but i honestly feel that some people feel more obliged to mod maps after they are qualified, which is wrong, as you should mod them b4 they get qualified instead.
lol what.

Qualified is a TESTING PHASE
it's supposed to gather feedback

If there isn't any feedback, then so be it nice the thing gets ranked
If there are valid concerns that should be taken care of then so be it

like if those ppl who feel obliged to mod stuff actually produce quality mods then why not let them mod qualifieds
Pho

Okoratu wrote:

Qualified is a TESTING PHASE
it's supposed to gather feedback

If there isn't any feedback, then so be it nice the thing gets ranked
If there are valid concerns that should be taken care of then so be it
This pretty much sums up how qualification phase currently works. I think it has been said enough times already: You shouldn't get mad about post-qualification mods on your set, having people who care for the set is something you should be glad of - like, seriously, they just spend some time trying to improve your map further, why would you hate on them for doing that.

I for myself can't find the extra time to check qualified maps on quality issues and nominate beatmaps both at once, but it's good to see some members of the group actually try to tackle this issue. As there currently is no strong countermeasure to the general drop of mapping quality, this is better than nothing.
Cherry Blossom
Hello.
I rather take this thread as a personnal attack to me, especially the first post.
End of discussion.


I think you have misunderstood the real purpose of that Request a DQ thread, just point out things that are directly unrankable, so, obvious issues.
I never said that a post qualification mod is useless or doesn't even make sense.
What i really want to say : "Hey, this is mapper's map, not yours. Don't enforce him to DQ his map, if he wants to improve himself let him decide and ask for a DQ, if he doesn't want, then, let a QAT decide"
A BN should not have the last word, that's why i said "Stop acting like someone you're not". By "someone" i mean mapper or QAT.

It's the real idea behind this thread, but I don't have the "power" to make you apply it like a rule, i'm like you, a BN.
The purpose of that request a DQ is to alert a QAT about unrankable and VERY questionnable things, or if a mapper wants to DQ his map.
But never, and never, should be a thread to say "hey i posted a mod, can you DQ the map please"
Try to understand that nuance.

I hope i was as clear as possible.
Kibbleru

Okoratu wrote:

Kibbleru wrote:

imo qats should be checking these posts and asking themselves 'is this really worth a dq'
because stuff like nc and minor hitsound/nazi spacing issues should not be worth a dq..

also i dont want to acuse any1 but i honestly feel that some people feel more obliged to mod maps after they are qualified, which is wrong, as you should mod them b4 they get qualified instead.
lol what.

Qualified is a TESTING PHASE
it's supposed to gather feedback

If there isn't any feedback, then so be it nice the thing gets ranked
If there are valid concerns that should be taken care of then so be it

like if those ppl who feel obliged to mod stuff actually produce quality mods then why not let them mod qualifieds
pending is also a TESTING PHASE, wip is a TESTING PHASE
im not against modding qualified maps, but i still think its better to take care of issues b4 maps are qualified.

but i can also see why this is happening, because when a map gets qualified, is when it truly gets put to the spotlight for the community.


but i feel like people still take DQs as a rather negative thing
if people start treating qualified as just another phase similar to pending, or WIP, then i think this issue may be solved
Topic Starter
Natsu
@Cherry Blossom I don't see why, we just wonder why a inactive BN come to make changes, without any discussion or post from a staff, also the way you did at the mapset thread and the way you did at the current DQ thread was a bit rushed, that's why everyone is worry. We are just having a healthy (I hope) discussion about how to proceed with qualify maps, since your post cause confusion.

@Kibbleru yeah, but sometimes the only way you notice a map is when it gets qualified, since it gets more attention or you randomly play it and notice something.
HappyRocket88
Is that really hard to work together as BNs and stop this fight about the post-qualification mods? I read the whole thread and it made me a bit sad how some of us took CB's points as if he tried to discourage modding or something. I do know there are very few active QATs at the moment and they can't check all the maps as they used to do, but modding a post-qualification map is the trully way how the whole community of players/modders in the whole wil test the mapset which is supposed to be ready.

What's worth or not for DQ is a thing that QATs should handle since they have the last word after all. But the fact of making a thread for this really shows how as BN think individually while modding a map.
Irreversible
I would like to say it again: Getting a map disqualified is not something bad.
It still seems like this is not entirely clear, after such a long time.

Let's consist with the following now:
Post clear objectiv matters in the usual CB thread. If you then feel like mentioning other problems which do not conflict with the RC per se, post in the thread that I've recently opened up and they will be checked for their validity.

Locked per request by Natsu.
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