I feel like some rains can be very hard and some rains can be very easy but not so easy until the platter part because 90% of all platters are ar8 and ar7 however rains and most overdoses are the same AR.

But some overdoses can be rather insanely easy but not to easy until the rain part either, this is why there should be a difficulty between rain and overdose and I feel like deluge is not being used enough, deluge should be extra difficulty like extra stage, something very hard, like scythe would be a deluge or dreamless wanderer

also this does not apply to salad or platter or even cup's because they have their own AR bracket and difficulty within them are spread evenly however since rain's and overdoses have usually the same AR most of the time this becomes a issue because most rain's can be very hard like rain+ and some overdoses can be very easy like rain+, there should be new difficulty honestly, I just don't see why there isn't one if there is no new difficulty being set in stone just move everything back slightly and make deluge the top extra difficulty instead of overdose cuz deluge for a extra overdose on a mapset seems like a silly idea.

PS: Standard has Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane, Extra

CTB has, Cup, Salad, Platter, Rain, Overdose, Deluge why does cup even exist salad is pretty much the same thing and deluge hasn't been used since the dawn of time so that means only 4 difficulties are active vs the 5 in standard

If this is the logic it would go so like

Cup = Easy
Salad = Normal
Platter = Hard
Rain = Insane
Overdose = Extra

Because CTB in very low AR is insanely easy to read and play virtually salads and cups are pretty much the exact same thing so my ideal system would probably go something like this

Salad = Easy/Normal
Platter = Hard
Rain = Insane
Overdose = Insane+ or Extra
Deluge = Extra+

so aka cut cup's and add deluges or a new difficulty in between rain and overdose into the mix.

Make Cup Ranking Criteria and Salad the exact same

cuz idk about you but every single player I've met plays salads when they first start, no one really play cup maps unless to spin and spinning is usually more fun on crazy convert maps, pretty much just map salad's a bit easier keep platters the same and make deluges REALLY tough, like the defining part about a deluge has to be insanely hard. something Extra so aka dreamless wanderer, reanimate would be more of a overdose, owen was yee would be like a rain+ not a overdose, umaru would be a deluge

aka you get the point, share the thoughts with me!

lol

Would textwall this but no computer right now so it's a pain

"scythe would be a deluge" made me chuckle though, thanks for that

The line between rain and overdose is so blurred because of how few CtB maps existed until just about a year ago, nowadays when you see a Rain or Overdose you know what to expect more as the boundaries are much more clearly defined, Deluge is also usually just to define the "harder" of 2 overdoses in a set.

Also do not suggest we cut Cup diffs from the game as that is an absolutely terrible idea, there are in fact players that cannot play Salad diffs, they may be few and far between but they do exist and the line between Cups and Salads are very clearly defined, Cups are SS'able without any dashing where as Salads are an introduction to the dashing mechanic. You don't see standard players asking for Easy diffs to be removed just because most players can move on to Normal almost right away.

Note: Didn't see Zak's stuff, no I did not steal his ideas

1. Cups actually can be classified as very different from salads. There are many differences between cups and salads, such as the usage of dashes, suggested AR, and note density. Although these difficulty differences may be minute for a player who can easily play overdoses, they are much larger in the point of view of a newer player. To address the other point, although many people start with salads, some don't. Consider that there are also some people that cannot play salads immediately, either. Some people use cups as a way to practice mods at a low degree of difficulty. In the end, they are very different beasts that should be handled on their own.
   
2. Rains and overdoses can have an overlap in difficulty and SR, depending on the style of the mapper. Other people may not agree, but I think the line gets a bit fuzzy at the rain-overdose mark. This could come from the fact that only lately have more CtB maps been getting ranked, and they have started to define the borders a little further than before, since there are more "marker maps" to work from.
   
3. Deluges shouldn't really have their own system. Deluges are basically overdoses that are especially difficult for a player (in my opinion). Yes, the term has been thrown around as something that should be avoided, but there is less of a need to have them. If you have a set with two overdoses, then the harder one can usually be called the deluge.

My thoughts

Fantasy wrote:

I feel like some rains can be very hard and some rains can be very easy but not so easy until the platter part because 90% of all platters are ar8 and ar7 however rains and most overdoses are the same AR.

But some overdoses can be rather insanely easy but not to easy until the rain part either, this is why there should be a difficulty between rain and overdose and I feel like deluge is not being used enough, deluge should be extra difficulty like extra stage, something very hard, like scythe would be a deluge or dreamless wanderer

also this does not apply to salad or platter or even cup's because they have their own AR bracket and difficulty within them are spread evenly however since rain's and overdoses have usually the same AR most of the time this becomes a issue because most rain's can be very hard like rain+ and some overdoses can be very easy like rain+, there should be new difficulty honestly, I just don't see why there isn't one if there is no new difficulty being set in stone just move everything back slightly and make deluge the top extra difficulty instead of overdose cuz deluge for a extra overdose on a mapset seems like a silly idea.

PS: Standard has Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane, Extra

CTB has, Cup, Salad, Platter, Rain, Overdose, Deluge why does cup even exist salad is pretty much the same thing and deluge hasn't been used since the dawn of time so that means only 4 difficulties are active vs the 5 in standard

If this is the logic it would go so like

Cup = Easy
Salad = Normal
Platter = Hard
Rain = Insane
Overdose = Extra

Because CTB in very low AR is insanely easy to read and play virtually salads and cups are pretty much the exact same thing so my ideal system would probably go something like this

Salad = Easy/Normal
Platter = Hard
Rain = Insane
Overdose = Insane+ or Extra
Deluge = Extra+

so aka cut cup's and add deluges or a new difficulty in between rain and overdose into the mix.

Make Cup Ranking Criteria and Salad the exact same

cuz idk about you but every single player I've met plays salads when they first start, no one really play cup maps unless to spin and spinning is usually more fun on crazy convert maps, pretty much just map salad's a bit easier keep platters the same and make deluges REALLY tough, like the defining part about a deluge has to be insanely hard. something Extra so aka dreamless wanderer, reanimate would be more of a overdose, owen was yee would be like a rain+ not a overdose, umaru would be a deluge

aka you get the point, share the thoughts with me!

That makes sense

I'm fine with having more specific CTB difficulties for higher maps, doesn't really hurt to have more clarification.

Deluge just doesn't really have a place in CTB, also I understand the hole cup idea and salad, maybe I was completely wrong lol but I still think there should be a difficulty in between rain and overdose or add deluge to the higher tier.

Fantasy wrote:

Deluge just doesn't really have a place in CTB, also I understand the hole cup idea and salad, maybe I was completely wrong lol but I still think there should be a difficulty in between rain and overdose or add deluge to the higher tier.

Is not necessary, if you want to add something between these diffs could be a second overdose or rain, like in https://osu.ppy.sh/s/349296 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/716430?m=2 etc

anyway is not a bad idea, the gap between rain and overdose is bad, you need a lot of time in rain before start fc overdoses

this couldnt be a problem if there were more ctb mappers ):

koliron wrote:

this couldnt be a problem if there were more ctb mappers ):

I don't really know much about how mapping works for ctb, but hopefully osu! next will prove beneficial to ctb mapping with the introduction of a new ctb-specific editor. Times are looking good

Renji wrote:

but hopefully osu! next will prove beneficial to ctb mapping with the introduction of a new ctb-specific editor.

Yeah maybe, i only want to see when is a hyper and a logical distance snap ): the rest its fine i guess

I would like to see a few Deluges getting ranked o/ Preferrably very high AR and HP drain (AR10 HP7? o3o) I feel that things might get too boring for Top 20s cuz they seem to HDHR most Overdoses. CTB maps were VERY challenging back in the days even without high AR & HP & CS, maybe we can bring back some of the good old stuff XD

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P.S. Ironic since I can't play AR10 sadzzzz

Having blurred lines between difficulties isn't unique to ctb, it's present in all modes as far as I can tell. "Easy" Rains are still Rains, "Hard" Overdoses are still Overdoses (or if you want to call them Deluges, as an unofficial term).

I agree that some diffs in the past have maybe been "misclassified" (I'm looking at you, Crystal's Rain!), but in future the aim is to move away from star rating and such towards a more objective metric for judging difficulty based on the features of the map itself. Attempts at doing this are ongoing, with the recent proposed changes to the Ranking Criteria aiming to construct a much clearer description of what "defines" each difficulty.

Regarding the Rain - Overdose gap, I agree with koliron. if you have a Rain and an Overdose that feel very similar, there's little stopping you calling them both "Rain" (or Overdose) and adding another harder (or easier) diff if necessary. Provided they're varied enough and of good quality, morre diffs is definitely a good thing, but adding an extra "inbetween" difficulty is only going to blur the lines further imo.

CtB editor soon (tm)

koliron wrote:

the gap between rain and overdose is bad, you need a lot of time in rain before start fc overdoses

lol I skipped rains completely there's enough simple overdoses out there which definitely don't fall into "rain" category

koliron wrote:

this couldnt be a problem if there were more ctb mappers ):

lets get more modders before we invite new mappers, yeah?

Fantasy wrote:

Deluge just doesn't really have a place in CTB.

uhhh lol - usually in the place of two overdoses, the higher one is a deluge. Just like in standard, you have two X icons, one of them is Extra, the other one is a custom diff name or something. or extreme. etc. It differentiates the two difficulties.

Fantasy wrote:

I still think there should be a difficulty in between rain and overdose or add deluge to the higher tier

there doesn't need to be a diff in between rain and overdose. the difficulty naming is largely subjective to how the mapper mapped it, and what components of mapping it uses. the current naming mechanisms are fine the way they are tbh. Dunno why we're trying to fix things that aren't broken D:

When he said about the inexistence of Deluge, I comprehended that he might have been addressing the issue that the difficulty (commonly known as Deluge) which far supercedes the challenge of convetional Overdoses are not being accepted ordinarily unlike all the other difficulties (Cup to Overdose), making Deluge seemingly inexistent. It's not a naming issue, it's an acceptance issue. Would we as a community welcome a 6* star map that's as difficult as a 6* standard convert to be ranked if it's good enough? And who to decide/what criterias to be met to have a map so difficult to be deemed "good enough for ranking"? Or are we forever going to reject super hard maps because of its challenge? Is there a threshold of difficulty where anything beyond it will be far too ridiculous for ranking no matter how much effort is put in? And if there is what would that threshold be?

From what I can see the issues surrounding Deluge is far from just the debate of "naming", it brings out introcate details amd technicalities of the ranking system and the deeper implications of mapping itself.

The thing is, deluge vs. "custom name here" are essentially the same. My point is, people don't use deluge because they prefer a custom name instead. The boundaries of a deluge are also undefined in general. A deluge can exist if the mapper wants to map an especially difficult overdose, but the naming does not have to do with the difficulty of the map, besides if it's harder than the other overdose. People don't use the term very often, and it's strange to force someone to replace, say, wavering asymmetry with "deluge" (sorry Ascendance but that's the first example that came to mind.). It's assumed to be one.

Absolute Zero wrote:

The thing is, deluge vs. "custom name here" are essentially the same. My point is, people don't use deluge because they prefer a custom name instead. The boundaries of a deluge are also undefined in general. A deluge can exist if the mapper wants to map an especially difficult overdose, but the naming does not have to do with the difficulty of the map, besides if it's harder than the other overdose. People don't use the term very often, and it's strange to force someone to replace, say, wavering asymmetry with "deluge" (sorry Ascendance but that's the first example that came to mind.). It's assumed to be one.

rank asymmetry

Ascendance wrote:

koliron wrote:

this couldnt be a problem if there were more ctb mappers ):

lets get more modders before we invite new mappers, yeah?

Usually mappers are modders, but not all modders are mappers, HI YUII

Hi CtB community~~

First of all, Deluge doesn't exist, in my opinion is another way to call Overdoses, take the example of Taiko: Inner Oni and Ura Oni are the same but there are people who thinks that Ura Oni is harder than Inner Oni. The second problem is "custom name".

Absolute Zero wrote:

The thing is, deluge vs. "custom name here" are essentially the same. My point is, people don't use deluge because they prefer a custom name instead.

To be honest I prefer, cup-salad-platter-rain-overdose/deluge, I don't know why people try to ruin the mode changing the name of the last diff, there is no sense for me, the specific mode started with overdose/deluge and we should keep the idea, is like the identity of CtB, I played maps from BMS with EZ,NM,HD,MX,EX because they are specific diff names from the game, we should do the same.

I'm desagree with the current system of stars, because if you add more hyperdashes, you will get more stars, to be honest this suck.

He Ang Erika wrote:

I would like to see a few Deluges getting ranked o/ Preferrably very high AR and HP drain (AR10 HP7? o3o) I feel that things might get too boring for Top 20s cuz they seem to HDHR most Overdoses. CTB maps were VERY challenging back in the days even without high AR & HP & CS, maybe we can bring back some of the good old stuff XD

The last thing that I want to point out for players who enjoy challenge diffs, the main reason of why there aren't a lot Overdoses or Deluges is cause there aren't enough modders, if you want to see more Challenge difficulties ranked please help us with mods.

alienflybot wrote:

1. People usually don't prefer modding hard maps as they are mostly with long length and with jumps which are hard to handle.
2. Most of the BNs are busy and cannot take care of the maps a lot. You know, they are humans and they have their lives too.

If you really want to have these maps ranked, either mod the maps and try to raise their awareness, or map one yourself and try to get it ranked.

and for mappers, I know that you want to get your map ranked faster but you are not helping to the CtB community if you make only cup-salad-platter, otherwise, you are ruining the game mode because people will prefer convert standard diffs, I met a lot of people who leave ctb and started to play another mode for this reason.

I ♥ CtB

-Sh1n1- wrote:

To be honest I prefer, cup-salad-platter-rain-overdose/deluge, I don't know why people try to ruin the mode changing the name of the last diff, there is no sense for me, the specific mode started with overdose/deluge and we should keep the idea, is like the identity of CtB

+1
It seems like such a joke sometimes. "Eternity" "Distorted schythe" " freezing" "twilight" "shining needle parade" "captivation" : just no.
Plain old "Overdose" or "Deluge" would be so much simpler and cleaner.

PakaChan wrote:

-Sh1n1- wrote:

To be honest I prefer, cup-salad-platter-rain-overdose/deluge, I don't know why people try to ruin the mode changing the name of the last diff, there is no sense for me, the specific mode started with overdose/deluge and we should keep the idea, is like the identity of CtB

+1
It seems like such a joke sometimes. "Eternity" "Distorted schythe" " freezing" "twilight" "shining needle parade" "captivation" : just no.
Plain old "Overdose" or "Deluge" would be so much simpler and cleaner.

All except for the last one are marathon names, so there is no "spread name" for those.

Now of course I agree with custom names, as easily noticed by how much I use them (Hell, I have a salad even, where I used a custom name because I could), because I feel it can help to give a map a more unique feel. Calling the hardest difficulty the same as normal generally feels boring, and almost takes away from the song in my eyes.

I feel as though custom names are nice because they help to identify it with the song, in a way something like "overdose" just doesn't. I'm generally quite strict on what I'd accept as a custom diff name, but if it can be related in some way to the song, it can work nicely.