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[Unranked] Undertale Mapset.

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Total Posts
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HappyRocket88
4,322 posts
Joined May 2014
Topic Starter
HappyRocket88
Greetings! I hope you're having a great time. I wanted to open a thread where you guys can give me your opinion about a map which I have recently modded and couldn't get into agreement with the mapper.

This is the map: t/384912
These are the mapper's opinions: p/4935877 p/4940188

The disagreement can be summarize it in these two issues I consider relevant to discuss:
  1. Inappropriate background for the hardest diff: It can be treated as:
       1. Spoiler of the game: When Papyrus shows all those messages to the player which is literally the description of the picture.*
       2. A meme. Which honestly isn't really suitable for the song when there are more appropriate images for backgrounds from Undertale. **
  2. Spread between the Hard and the Insane diff:. Insane manages rather a quite high density at issue of the 1/8 triplets used constantly throughout the whole diff which isn't good when Hard manage barely triplets at 1/4 while playing it
Note: Despite the thumbnail can clearly show it, it would be better if the mapset is directly downloaded to look at better the complete background in its original size.

Detailed information/reference can be found in the annexes.
Annexes
* Description of the background made by the character could be found ir here. Might be a spoiler if you haven't played the game.
** Different sources for a better background: zerochan | devianart | pixiv

It would be really helpful if you could show your point of view of the issues discussed there. Posting here in this thread or either in the mapset's thread would be cool also. It doesn't matter if you don't play standard! Anything is appreciated.

Thank you very much!
Last edited by HappyRocket88 , edited 6 times in total.
Karen
2,864 posts
Joined August 2013
Karen
Dropping my opinions:

HappyRocket88 wrote:

[notice][list][*] Inappropriate background for the hardest diff: I have no idea on spoiler, but meme things should never be allowed in all kinds of beatmaps.
[*] Hybrid manipulation of two different songs in one: This is fine imo as long as it sounds not weird, BNs still can nominate maps with edited mp3 now.
[*] Adding an Easy difficulty: The spread of this map is very bad, but not for Normal diff. I think mapper should add a diff between Hard and Insane since the 1/8 usage on the Insane diff makes it very difficult, which causes a big gap with Hard. The Normal diff is ok as an easiest diff imo, altho i do agree that it's kinda not suitable.
Pereira006
osu! Alumni
2,801 posts
Joined October 2010
Pereira006
1 - I agree that BG on last could no allow

2 - the mp3 is fine, because there lot maps have 2 song different or more. just find Timing is good

3 - Insane have half jump, 1/4 short and half 1/8, the play look good for me.
Hard have short jump and half 1/4 (slider and notes) the spread Between Hard and insane look good.
Now Normal have 1/1, 1/2 and no jump, stream, etc... but actually the play make me feel is Normal/Easy, I mean SV so low and BPM so low. I feel this don't need Easy because the spread look fine for me, and there actually happen that have map rank this year with song dubstep or something, without Easy diff, but Normal have lot 1/1 and half 1/2. My own view I don't see problem this spread IMO
sheela
2,651 posts
Joined October 2011
sheela

HappyRocket88 wrote:

  1. Inappropriate background for the hardest diff: It can be treated as:
       1. Spoiler of the game: When Papyrus shows all those messages to the player which is literally the description of the picture.*
       2. A meme. Which honestly isn't really suitable for the song when there are more appropriate images for backgrounds from Undertale. **
    It doesn't look like a big spoiler form the game in my opinion, it's just a minor detail, and I don't think players will comprehend this background much if they haven't played the game. However, if this is a meme (I don't know much about memes), then okay, the background can be changed.

  2. Hybrid manipulation of two different songs in one: The song is totally an edit of two individual songs from Undertale which were composed totally apart of each other. They might have relation to each other because the rhythm could be the same but it doesn't imply we are allowed to do that kind of graft. It was also made in this case t/339455 but I do believe this is a different thing after all. ***
    Having two mp3s into one is fine, it actually adds a good effect to the song!

  3. Adding an Easy difficulty: Normal difficulty has a quite high density of 1/2 which could be hard to players who just started the game to click such as objects snapped on the red tick that consistent as that diff does.
    I agree with your reasons that the spread needs an Easy difficulty, but I also agree with Karen that there's a bad spread between Hard and Cool Dude, due to the usage of 1/8 in the hardest difficulty. The mapper has the possibility to add a difficulty in-between or nerf the 1/8 rhythms to fix the issue.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
1 - if you start to call everything as meme just because it's a running gag from the game then we should consider to disqualify waaaay more beatmaps. Also, that is by far not a real spoiler. Unless I really can't see what you mean, spaghetti isn't really a spoiler, you even can see it at the steam background the connection between papyrus and spaghetti. see here

let me give an example, related to Undertale (SPOILER HERE, DON'T BOTHER TO READ IT):
"Your Best Nightmare", the music fighting against Omega Flowey is quite self-explaining. Mapping it is a spoiler theirself because people will use a related background to this. Also it's quite unknown until the end that flowey is the mastermind of the whole adventure. We need to make a hard limit where we call it as a significant spoiler or as aside fact, e.g someone dies or how the game ends, etc.

2 - I can't remember this ever was a problem so far, it's pretty fine and not poorly edited. Nothing wrong here.

3 - can't really say that for now, I just remember that the mapper asked me if an Easy Difficulty is necessary - while I said them it never hurts to have one, although I recommend to do one.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
1. Is the BG related to the song? if so is fine even if is a fun one, I don't know about this specific case hope is not other lemur case, but if you have info and it fit the song is totally fine.

2. Also is fine, but metadata need to be similar to monstrata map : p/4456991 (I think the mapper already did this, no?)

3. Spread is a bit borderline, but gaps are almost equal, your argument about those 1/8 in insane vs 1/4 triplets in hard also can apply to those 1/4 in hard vs 1/2 in normal, anyways talking about the need of an easy diff, bpm is really low and there are just some patterns that are a bit questionable for the easy diff of the set:

01:15:550 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - 01:02:750 (1,2,3) - the hardest part of this map, the second is questionable the first one need a nerf, unless you want a big bar of retry/fail rate in your map

00:09:150 (4,1) - this will cause alot of combo break for new players/low experienced ones, they will try to move to 1 too fast
00:26:750 (2,3) - ^

00:15:550 (4,2) - questionable readability? no for experienced players, but newbies will have a bit hard time on this, moving 1 or 2 grids off can help.

just my 2 cents
HappyRocket88
4,322 posts
Joined May 2014
Topic Starter
HappyRocket88
Ohh! I never thought this would be a discussion. Thank you very much guys! now I can conclude the mp3 mix wasn't a really unranked issue, nevertheless mapper should re-work on the BPM because it still feel a bit off in the second part. Also I didn't notice the gap from the Hard and the Insane with the 1/8 streams which feel rather forced compared with the density of the Hard difficulty that barely manages 1/4 objects.

I still have my concerns about the background. Leaving aside the topic of the spaghetti, it honestly doesn't look suitable for a song from Undertale where there are a lot of possible content which would fit better in the background. As it is, and staying from the perspective of a person who doesn't know anything about the game, it looks like a skull edited in a man-body like with sunglasses here and there which apparently makes sense with the game because of Papyrus.

Thank you very much Karen, sheela, Pereira006, Stefan and Natsu! Any other opinion from the Modding Team would be appreciate too! Feel free to post it here or in the mapset's thread p/4935877 if you want the mapper knows directly your opinion about this. Re-editing the statement later on to let this discussion be archived after an agreement could be done.
Pereira006
osu! Alumni
2,801 posts
Joined October 2010
Pereira006
Easy got added, I and daxmasterix we did irc on-game about nerf 1/8 notes to slider repeat, to became better play, we did lot nerf 1/8 notes to sliders repeats, expect triple 1/8 and some spacing. For now I hope players can pass, readability and playability on Insane and hope the spread got fix.

Now about BG, I don't know BG is meme or not, but for me look like fine because papyrus is spaghett! HERO! COOL DUDE! CRAZY SKELETONS! etc..... all about this is on undertale, so I think BG is make sense for music, just my opinion.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey
Background looks fine to me. Sure it looks sorta meme'ish but it fits the theme of the song and underlines Papyrus' crazy personality. Like Stefan said already, this is more of a running gag than an actual meme.

For the reason saying it's a spoiler, well ... especially in the video game section there are plenty of other backgrounds that can be considered 'spoilers' probably. Soon I'm gonna upload an undertale map and in the background you see Toriel and the protagonist hug each other. Spoiler? Maybe, but it suits the song extremely because it reminds any undertale player of the first time you ever met Toriel. Clearly not an argument for me. As long as it's not a massive spoiler as described in Stefan's post I see no problem with this.
HappyRocket88
4,322 posts
Joined May 2014
Topic Starter
HappyRocket88
Being that said, the issues were addressed and explanations arose to specify each hint. Placing a heart to let this discussion be archived once the staff sees it.

Thank you very much guys for your support! Something that allowed to have a nice discussion about the issue stated to develop the quality of the map.
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