I W A R N E D Y O U G U Y S A B O U T T H I S

lmfao but like legit, the most frustrating this is that a lot of people gave me shit when I called out staff on like, doing shit without community input, nor giving a shit about community input, and promoting activism to make sure the community voice is heard. It was a lot of "Just let Staff do what they do and wait for the next big surprise : - )" and then when shit like this hits the fan it's like "what did i fukin tel u m8s"

And especially the fact that not even peppy had a fucking clue what was going on is my favorite part because it just highlights what I've been saying for years about the poor communication from staff.

I fucking really love peppy sometimes though. Like I think regardless of the fact that he's can sometimes be out of touch / outdated with the community, he really genuinely cares about the progress of the game, and he's actually the only head staff member that has taken a lot of my complaints seriously and gotten change done. It's just a matter of like putting that motivation towards current mapping meta as well as kind of avoiding the occasional stubbornness that people have expressed he has (I've never had experience with that so I can't say anything about it, but this is from hearing from other people)

peppy could shut this down in an instant, this juvenile power trip community takeover bullshit coming from people like loctav is really annoying and meaningless, considering Peppy pays the bills, he has absolute power. This is the equivalent of some 10 year old going around their parents house breaking as many things as possible, and now dad has to come up from his workshop in the basement and give them a spanking.

yeah just let like 7 fucking irrelevant (sorry dooms) people decide the fate of the game

yeah just take a steamy shit on all the mappers who create content for this game, this game that creates ABSOLUTELY NONE of its own content, this game that should feel blessed that anyone is making maps for it at all. Man if this goes through i hope the game goes through such a rapid decline that peppy is forced to ban some staff to save it.

ive seen this mentality before, it's like they don't want to admit they were wrong, and it usually goes like this: *horrible decision that literally everyone hates* *gigantic negative backlash* *excuses to why this is a good change and how things were worse before so deal with it*, and then the game ends up dying. This is exactly what happened to WoW, and it's happening here now too.

I really feel bad for Peppy, really I do, he just wants to sit in his little corner and code, code, code. That's why he got all these people to deal with all the other aspects of the game, and they are making it really hard for him. He didn't want to poke his head out but his people fucked up so bad the site was going down, im sure he's quite annoyed and who knows what he'll do. At best he'll drop some ban hammers, at worst this retarded proposal will be shot down.

hi i'm not sure if you've noticed but the rule sort of being fucklocked by peppy infers the highest degree of "this isn't going to happen"

at least not without revision, anyway.

given the fuckheug backlash over this, i doubt it'll ever go in as any iteration that even mentions the word "spread" again but we'll see i suppose

the entire point of the proposal was to start moving things forward - the modding scene in particular has stagnated massively in recent years mostly due to a rising number of mappers and little to no reward for modders who actively make the effort to get maps into a rankable state. this RC change, while disjointed in its presentation, was fundamentally meant to address that issue by making map quality more consistent (via difficulty progression being more linear), and to level off the active effort required by modders by capping sets at a reasonable number of difficulties instead of the NHI 3-4 X stuff that we see on a daily basis. a two-pronged effort, but not without its drawbacks. i'm personally not sure whether it is the ideal choice honestly, but at this point, trying something out is better than doing nothing at all

was this proposal massively rushed forward? yeah, for sure, and it could have benefitted from wayyyyyyy more discussion on the topic beforehand. a lesson learned for everyone involved, i think, and (hopefully) not something that's going to happen again. the council gaff absolutely needs to not happen again - no point making a new representative council and then not actually getting their feedback for stuff, seems a bit weird.

oh and if you didn't figure it out, that is what the council is supposed to be - a designated member that is able and willing to listen to community complaints or concerns about the RC and relay them back to the council for appropriate discussion. it just essentially removes the headslamming out of the old RC debates and is an unequivocally better system - it literally empowers the users that do care to do more, not less.

part of the issue with this whole thing was that the wording of the new criteria was reaaaally poor in its initial iteration and confused everyone (including me) massively.

so can we move past this milennial predilection to immediately hate authority and wish them death and dismemberment the moment something slightly non-palatable comes to bear? ztrot actually had some guy ringing him up with death threats all day, and more than a few people chose to take it on themselves to inform the two of them that they should kill themselves. while obviously not many (any) reading this are responsible, more than a small number of you aren't exactly being constructive with your feedback and that sort of shit doesn't really help anyone

that'd be great, thanks!

I just really hate the whole idea itself. It's just way too many unnecessary rules and regulations. This whole 'quality consistency' thing is bullshit, it's like the ranking system is supposed to be a map factory where individuality is strongly discouraged. It's not only that need super autisticly linear spread because apparently our players will throw a tantrum if a map of a song they like is slightly too hard or easy for them, what the fuck is the reason behind not allowing two or more diffs of the same difficulty? All mapsets must be exactly the same

Reditum wrote:

I W A R N E D Y O U G U Y S A B O U T T H I S

lmfao but like legit, the most frustrating this is that a lot of people gave me shit when I called out staff on like

wow like all the times you shit on me for doing the same thing.

I think there's just far too few people making too many decisions right now.
and b1rd is right, this is the worst kind of streamlining imaginable. It hurts new players "omg the difficulty jumps between diffs wtf" and mappers alike.
Who does it help? Modders?..
cutting down on the # of eligible to be ranked maps does not cause there to be more quality or variety.
making mappers pull their hair out over shit spread requirements does not lead to more quality either

really their creative energy is wasted on this game if this goes through, i hope they all head over to Hexis, I bet they would be thrilled to have more mappers and actually appreciate the work they put in.

Guy who went with idea to fix something what isn't broken is autistic and should retire in first place.

Why the hell Peppy keep morons on positions while they clearly creates bad name for osu!staff by doing this shit?

This reminds me real life issue with politics:

Try to fix something what isn't broken at all in matter to pretend that you are doing something and hiding your incompetence and lack of ideas to fix real problems. Am I right trot? Put your damn hoof into true problems k?

I think there is bigger problem with ranking criteria than difficulty spread.

I don't think anyone is autistic, I legit think some people just don't understand the game well enough to realize how progression happens. I mean many of them are extremely low ranked, below me in many cases. They seem to have it in their mind that a new or intermediate player will just play at a certain star diff and then magically be able to make the jump to the next one if they do that long enough. Spreads with gradual changes in difficulty starting at a higher point if necessary facilitate this and play out much better in a real world scenario.

For example, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/212120&m=0 helped me progress a lot when i was newer, the difference between Insane and Y is not much star wise, but it definitely felt like a world of difference. Difficulties being incremental will be awful maps for everyone minus those who just play the highest one anyway.

We need people who are more in touch with the gameplay itself making decisions that affect things like player progression.

It's worked in the past, just look at Tom94, the ranking system resulted largely from his skill as a player telling him how difficult things are relative to eachother and where they balance out that resulted in a remarkably accurate ranking system, especially compared to what we had.

Another example aside from this proposed spread changes that stems from poor understanding of how the game plays, would be the changes to volume sliders, going from the non invasive one on the right to the c0000l spe3d0met3rz in the middle of the screen. Those were designed by some guy who legit had like 19 ranked plays, if memory serves. What.

I understand Peppy though, he generally stays away from gameplay, and if he would ever consider something that changes how people play or progress it would undergo rigorous testing and feedback first, because he understands that many of the players are far more invested and possess far more understanding of gameplay than he does. It's humility and respect for the people he is offering this product to. Something that I think some other staff members could benefit from.

Would be cool to see Peppy play more(tm) but inbetween his distaste for the shitstorm maps that have been getting pumped out for the past 4 years or so, and working+coding all the time, I have no high hopes for it.. So we just have to hope he listens to his community over his staff, because he's the last hope for all of us.

tl;dr we need more people who are well educated+skilled at the game+care about the community in charge. A rare combo for sure, there's not too many tom94's out there.

that's a pretty shitty thing to say, man. ztrot and loctav do care immensely about the game and the community - neither of them are setting aside hundreds of hours of time to try and fuck the game over.

like, that is a legitimately awful thing to even suggest. you can disagree with their proposal and draw issue with it all you like, but to insinuate that they're doing it out of some malicious drive to deliberately fuck over other people is awful.

i'd feel like dogshit if i came down here and saw someone saying that stuff about me, wouldn't you feel the same way?

i didnt try to imply that were trying to fuck over the game or do anything malicious though, i said it stemmed from a lack of understanding. good intentions are useless without proper understanding. maybe you're referring to my last line where i did the +'s, but i just meant all 3 of those would be ideal not that none of the staff have any combination of 1 or 2..

it's the reason feedback is so important, the only time ive seen someone ignoring community input to do what he thought was best work out was Icefrog, and that's because he legit understands DotA 2 better than the players, that said even he has made mistakes and had to revert a change or 2 in the past, but because it didnt play out in reality like it did on his drawing board, not because the community ever complained.

This game is never going to have an icefrog though, so decisions shouldnt be being made as if we do. INPUT. MATTERS.

as to whether or not i'd feel awful reading these things about me, yeah, but i'm not on a high horse like some people. if I was I'd just scoff it off because they are lesser and their words don't matter, because that's honestly true in my case.

that's a pretty shitty thing to say, man. ztrot and loctav do care immensely about the game and the community - neither of them are setting aside hundreds of hours of time to try and fuck the game over.

like, that is a legitimately awful thing to even suggest. you can disagree with their proposal and draw issue with it all you like, but to insinuate that they're doing it out of some malicious drive to deliberately fuck over other people is awful.

i'd feel like dogshit if i came down here and saw someone saying that stuff about me, wouldn't you feel the same way?

With all respect to you, trot, loctav:

They do good job but as it works in real life (i assume you are adult like me, you work normally like me) - you spend immense amount of time to build up your good reputation, people like you, respect you and... here it comes, one mistake is ruining all your effort because you enraged everyone around by trying to outsmart even a God.
I think there would be literally no problem if Trot worded his post in another way - as a proposition to get community feedback - not like he done - "this is going live and fuck you all" (anyway, same is going for loctav).

This is community driven game and as far as common sense allows you to make critical decision inside team which will not affect community in their greater number, changes like that affects every single mapper right now and even more people who planned to map something, had ideas, plans and suddenly this all felt apart. In my opinion as someone who spend time working as freelancer and needs to make decision about "what i can do myself / where i need customer feedback" - changes about ranking criteria require global community feedback, not only few people.

Additionally Loctav statement that now rules will be created by only few people called "Council of [xxx]" was a nail into grave what enrage this community even more.
Going this way is in my opinion a moronic move and will not work like you expect. For sure not in this community who actually care how this game looks and how things go. Even without "dank meme kidos", there is huge number of reasonable people who would like to share their ideas but simply Loctav & C.O. don't give a flying fuck to listen - here rage starts.

What's your opinion Ephemeral?

Ephemeral wrote:

the NHI 3-4 X stuff that we see on a daily basis.

But why is that a bad thing? Extra is where people can really go all out with their creativity without being limited by the difficulty. You can get multiple guest diffs, or try different mapping styles and play around with things. You're actively limiting that by forcing them to only put 2 extra diffs max.

They put their nhi diffs there because they have to if they want to get their maps ranked, and then they use the extras for the real interesting maps. If you limit them to 2 extra diffs, a lot of those interesting maps can get lost.

I also agree that the whole council concept is a step backwards.

[Taiga] wrote:

that's a pretty shitty thing to say, man. ztrot and loctav do care immensely about the game and the community - neither of them are setting aside hundreds of hours of time to try and fuck the game over.

like, that is a legitimately awful thing to even suggest. you can disagree with their proposal and draw issue with it all you like, but to insinuate that they're doing it out of some malicious drive to deliberately fuck over other people is awful.

i'd feel like dogshit if i came down here and saw someone saying that stuff about me, wouldn't you feel the same way?

With all respect to you, trot, loctav:

They do good job but as it works in real life (i assume you are adult like me, you work normally like me) - you spend immense amount of time to build up your good reputation, people like you, respect you and... here it comes, one mistake is ruining all your effort because you enraged everyone around by trying to outsmart even a God.
I think there would be literally no problem if Trot worded his post in another way - as a proposition to get community feedback - not like he done - "this is going live and fuck you all" (anyway, same is going for loctav).

This is community driven game and as far as common sense allows you to make critical decision inside team which will not affect community in their greater number, changes like that affects every single mapper right now and even more people who planned to map something, had ideas, plans and suddenly this all felt apart. In my opinion as someone who spend time working as freelancer and needs to make decision about "what i can do myself / where i need customer feedback" - changes about ranking criteria require global community feedback, not only few people.

Additionally Loctav statement that now rules will be created by only few people called "Council of [xxx]" was a nail into grave what enrage this community even more.
Going this way is in my opinion a moronic move and will not work like you expect. For sure not in this community who actually care how this game looks and how things go. Even without "dank meme kidos", there is huge number of reasonable people who would like to share their ideas but simply Loctav & C.O. don't give a flying fuck to listen - here rage starts.

What's your opinion Ephemeral?

i think we've already established the wording on the announcement/proposal/criteria change was poor, and while some outrage/malcontent is expected due to the misunderstandings this naturally causes, it really isn't an excuse for the sort of stuff we've seen

as far as the council stuff goes, i think the idea is a breath of fresh air as far as getting RC changes done. the council is representative and as such any player interested in having their voice heard only needs to send a PM to any council member they feel the most comfortable with. the council itself provides a ground where real affirmative action can actually take place, instead of the monthlong deadlocks that were commonplace in the old method of debating rc changes

this council thing is not us closing our ears to people, it's actually basically taking traffic cones and taping the thinner ends to our ears. if the model proves to be problematic and not of any worth, then it will be nixed and we'll go back to the old way.

seriously, give the council thing a go. i strongly support it and think that there's a variety of talented individuals who are known to both listen and be engaged with the community involved in the whole thing.

It would be one thing if the council came up with ideas and posted them on the ranking criteria subforum for people to discuss about. But the way it looks right now is that once something is posted in the name of the council it is finalized and will be implemented. This way unless you are in contact with one of the members it will always be too late if you want to share your input.

Ofcourse i may just be misunderstanding it, but that's what the post made it look like.

Running late for a meeting so ill make a big reply later.

First off, havent seen Ephemeral in a while. hi Ephemeral

Secondly, i think a lot of the reason the RC subforum wasnt really going anywhere wasnt because of the need of a council, but a lack of player and admin involvement. Ive had many threads just stat stagnant because no admins have been like "Approving/Denying" as well as members just sort of dying off because a discussion hadnt been given any deadline.

Its also a little sad that the council was just sort of appointed instead of voted on by the community. As a community voice, it would have been effective to get an idea of who would be representing us. There are many people on the team who i feel are not a good fit for my views, and i would have liked to have a say in that. Especially if this is now the new line between me and a subforum that i have made many contributions to.

Transparency has been a huge issue. Loctav recently in a Discord chat gave me this huge rant about how I constantly "ask him things that i dont have the authority to know", which is. . . Kind of understandable, because yeah, releasing things in a beta state, as we have seen here, is fucking stupid because it gets everyone all pissy. But i think what happens too much is that the community really isnt allowed to really see any sort of progress, which makes us tense and makes us assume that staff is lazy, which id like to assume that theyre not. I think the thing of "it was good because now people are talking about it" could have easily been done with a "hey guys heres our process on this new proposed system", even internally with BNs or SOMETHING that involved more than 4 white dudes in various countries. I remember peppy pushing for this a while ago but i havent seen too much from that since.

I think the biggest issue is that we kind of promote a "community" mindset with "community" involvement, but in actuality the community doesnt always feel like they can play a big role in the game. And as a community member who has TRIED to be actively involved and has gotten some pretty big "fuck you"s by a variety of staff members, its understandable where the community frustrations come from.

Ive pretty much become emotionally dead from irl issues, as well as dismotivated from trying to have my voice heard to a staff that has explicitly expressed that theyd rather not hear what i have to say, so im not as vehemently passionate about this as before. At this point im stating facts and just letting the community aware of "this is how it is now, it sucks and it could be fixed, but its not going to be fixed"

Im curious to see how this all turns out in the end. I could care less about ranking criteria changes, but im more curious about how people will view the staff and how the staff view the community outside of their pre-established friends group.

I hold no ill will to staff in a professional sense (except for those who hold ill will against me), but all in all i am attempting to give feedback on major events in the hopes that we can move forward from this and allow the community-based sysen to run most effectively, or officially abolish the idea that the community-based system is a thing anymore.

i still disagree with most of the proposed changes, like having two difficulties on approval unless it's insane

im really eager to see how this plays out thou, hoping my maps will be fine..

I hope staff realize how much they fucked up and never implement these changes.

If they don't attempt to change their stance, after this immense volume of negative feedback, I won't know what to say, really.

reditum: i would agree with your concerns re: staff transparency/unwillingness for the staff to trust you with anything if you weren't an ex-BAT who figuratively and literally shit the bed on the way out of your tenure by proving yourself completely untrustworthy. frankly, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that loctav is reticent about his dealings when you ask him given your history. this particular aspect of the system has very little (if anything) to do with the "system" and everything to do with you making an incredibly poor example of yourself. you had the opportunity and blew it.

don't get me wrong, not saying this to attack you for saying things, but there are distinct reasons why things are the way they are with you and your interactions with the staff, and those things are born purely of your own actions, not any systemic issue with how community feedback is taken in by the staff. sorry bruv.

community voting in council would be a catastrophically terrible idea given that we need people who are engaged, thoughtful and proficient in their appropriate fields for their elected seat. popular vote does not determine these things - it determines who markets themselves the best to the majority, which usually begets nothing in terms of actual proficiency. i sat in on the osu!standard council meeting yesterday and am very happy with the people chosen and how much work got done. obviously you can only really take my word for it right now, but i am highly confident that the merits of the council model will reveal themselves in the near future. like, legit.

community members with similar levels of engagement will find it trivial to voice their concerns to a council member and work together with them or even groups of other people to formulate solutions to these issues, which can then be vetted and appropriately worked to fit what needs to be done in a timeframe that was frankly impossible before.

besides, if it turns out to be shit, as i said before, we can just go back to the old way of doing things. if it comes to light that there are issues in conveying community consensus through the council, then we can address that as it happens. this isn't some fire and forget shit, yo.

So there's a new council? Lol. Yes I'm sure it's a circlejerk of all the high-ranking staff members with little to no representation for the majority of people. Well after all it does make sense that the majority of players don't have a voice. I'm sure comrade Loctav would be only too happy to let us make decisions for ourselves, but sometimes we might make the wrong decisions, and then comrades, where should we be?

im so glad i dont play this game anymore

oy gevalt

hi i'm in this thread

so i made a really productive post in the thread that got locked, go see it if you care it's page 38



anyway

because you knobheads are too busy circlejerking and kneejerking at every decision that gets made let's dissect what's been done (and also undone) and why it's good or bad.

first off the Ranking Council. this list of people is actually amazing. the only reason people are lashing out at it is because loctav, PR god that he is, said "hey these people came up with that rule nobody agrees with" when really that's not at all what happened (i know this from talking to the actual people in the Ranking Council, so I'm not pulling this out of my ass) but hey throwing people under the bus always works when you don't wanna take the blame yourself, so that's what happened (page 2 of the locked thread). without this nobody would have minded especially when you have C445/Doomsday/CB/FrostxE/Garven on that list and that even if you don't like one of the individuals in that list, it's a group which means they work and take decisions as a group which means no rushed stupid decisions (you know, like announcing that rule was).

as for the rule itself now. is it objectively bad? no. is it bad in the current context? hell yes. Once again I explain this in the actual good post I made at page 38 but let's tl;dr. easies and normals have retarded hardcap rules that don't allow for any flexibility = every easy and normal plays the same and if you wanna make a hard map that fucks up your spread hard because 2/6 of your diffs are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy down low in the general difficulty scale. I also explain why trying to cover the entire difficulty range is a bad idea.

people have been getting unreasonably angry at the fact that you can't have several difficulties of the same skill level anymore, but really they're full of shit. 99.9% of the time this happens is because some fucknut wants to shoehorn their fucknut buddy's guest difficulty except fucknut buddy is too bad at mapping to adapt to the diff curve the map has and/or too lazy to make his own set. there is actually no way you can defend this. If you're a mapper that wants two difficulties of the same skill level but with different skills required (one stream diff, one jump diff for example) shove both in the same difficulty and split even. if you're not a dumbass, it works.

finally after the dust settled i slid into ztrot's PMs like a motherfucker to understand how this blunder happened and make him understand why it happened. turns out hey! lower difficulties are gonna get that overhaul i advocate for, but it's (understandably since this hasn't been touched in at least 5 years) a project that's going to need time and hard work. and hey guess what that's what the ranking council is gonna work on and since they're full of people that understand what the fuck is going on in this game it will work well.

so chillax for a bit and learn to not kneejerk like a motherfucker when anything is decided. makes you look like a fucking tool.

i wish i could call people fucking tools without having a reddit post made about it

i'm literally green with envy right now

good post by the way

this is the power of the black name

you're relevant enough that your posts will be taken seriously but you have enough freedom of action to call everyone names

I am thinking whether going by the "appeal all players" philosophy is the right idea. The diff spread needs to be appropriate for the song. A 60 BPM song is more likely to recieve a E diff and a 320 BPM song is more appropriate with an X diff. I actually tried to come up with my own version of the rank criteria rules and had a couple people criticize it. It is centered around an automated system that raises the kudos requirement to rank per diff if there are to many similiar diffs. Someone pointed out that the main flaw of such system is that it doesnt appeal to players of all levels. Also, the community generally maps HI diffs, and less ENX diffs. What would happen is that HI are surpressed and ENX are barely affected

Coming up with a solution that appeals to all is hard if not impossible. It's better to leave things as thay are if you can't say what you think the conequences of doing something would be.

if that were the case, no changes would have ever been made to osu! since its original inception

there is no other game of this type available before us to work off - we are the pioneers

Mr Color wrote:

hi i'm in this thread

so i made a really productive post in the thread that got locked, go see it if you care it's page 38



anyway

because you knobheads are too busy circlejerking and kneejerking at every decision that gets made let's dissect what's been done (and also undone) and why it's good or bad.

first off the Ranking Council. this list of people is actually amazing. the only reason people are lashing out at it is because loctav, PR god that he is, said "hey these people came up with that rule nobody agrees with" when really that's not at all what happened (i know this from talking to the actual people in the Ranking Council, so I'm not pulling this out of my ass) but hey throwing people under the bus always works when you don't wanna take the blame yourself, so that's what happened (page 2 of the locked thread). without this nobody would have minded especially when you have C445/Doomsday/CB/FrostxE/Garven on that list and that even if you don't like one of the individuals in that list, it's a group which means they work and take decisions as a group which means no rushed stupid decisions (you know, like announcing that rule was).

as for the rule itself now. is it objectively bad? no. is it bad in the current context? hell yes. Once again I explain this in the actual good post I made at page 38 but let's tl;dr. easies and normals have retarded hardcap rules that don't allow for any flexibility = every easy and normal plays the same and if you wanna make a hard map that fucks up your spread hard because 2/6 of your diffs are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy down low in the general difficulty scale. I also explain why trying to cover the entire difficulty range is a bad idea.

People make more advanced patterns in normals than in easys though, as in 3/4th sliders into notes/other sliders, basic distance increase etc. It may not be much more difficult for established players but for newbies it's another step on the difficulty ladder. My personal opinion however is that easy diffs are most often redundant when there's a <2* normal after it.

people have been getting unreasonably angry at the fact that you can't have several difficulties of the same skill level anymore, but really they're full of shit. 99.9% of the time this happens is because some fucknut wants to shoehorn their fucknut buddy's guest difficulty except fucknut buddy is too bad at mapping to adapt to the diff curve the map has and/or too lazy to make his own set. there is actually no way you can defend this. If you're a mapper that wants two difficulties of the same skill level but with different skills required (one stream diff, one jump diff for example) shove both in the same difficulty and split even. if you're not a dumbass, it works.

Actually you're full of shit here buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're only thinking of one scenario (which is arguably not even a majority of the cases) and while if things ran like you imply, then it would be against the rules if 2 guys have mapped the same song, and only one of them has a full spread, the other sends him his diff to get it ranked and not have to make some time consuming low difficulty diffs and get all of them modded again (wasting modders time as well). It's only logical to collaborate and help eachother out don't you think? If you have a perfect spread and add another difficulty which is the same as one you already have, whats the fucking problem? I think you're being way too cynical here...

finally after the dust settled i slid into ztrot's PMs like a motherfucker to understand how this blunder happened and make him understand why it happened. turns out hey! lower difficulties are gonna get that overhaul i advocate for, but it's (understandably since this hasn't been touched in at least 5 years) a project that's going to need time and hard work. and hey guess what that's what the ranking council is gonna work on and since they're full of people that understand what the fuck is going on in this game it will work well.

so chillax for a bit and learn to not kneejerk like a motherfucker when anything is decided. makes you look like a fucking tool.

Rest somewhat makes sense. However if people didn't get unreasonably mad over these ridiculous proposals peppy might not have reacted like he did and closed it down either. I'm proud that this community is still community driven after 8 years in which bad ideas are heavily criticized and brought to light by the "peons".

i dont understand why ranking has to be so fucking dramatic and nuanced, just rank maps that generally get good responses from players and are fun/complete/timed/hitsounded properly.

and then we have 0 issues whatsoever, except from people that try to force their ideals of 'quality' onto maps when they should just leave it alone if they don't like it and go play other maps like a sane person would. Right now it's about whether or not a few people think a map is good, not whether most people who will actually play it think it's good, and that's kind of bad.

You can't let people tell other people what they do and don't find fun, that's how you get sperglords like loctav posting shit like this because god forbid a map be challenging in any nontraditional way. If you can't play a map why are you even looking at it?

Then again, even assuming these arent problems, the PP system is so screwy atm that you could just give scoreboards to unranked maps, and exclude everything that isnt a pp farm map from even counting on your top ranks, and the entire system wouldn't really be any worse for wear. So I think we should polish the foundation more before we try to build so much around it.

also @Mr Color that was a great post, definitely helped me see you as more than just that guy who would bully people in ot back in the day

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

So I think we should polish the foundation more before we try to build so much around it.

^ THIS, THIS AND THIS

Haha oh nice ive been clean for an entire year and have actively made changes to my behavior and staff still doesnt trust me

Bahaha but fuck me for actively making an effort to change that, right

Its almost as if i actually fucking believed anyone for a second when they said "you can change your history Reditum if you just dont get silenced so much, make an effort to be involved, and dont be a fucktard for a while"

Fuck me for giving a shit about this game right???

This is the kind of shit that makes me ragequit so much in the past. How long is "long enough" until i can actually get a fucking answer besides "oh well 2 years ago uncalled loctav a cunt so"

I legitimately honestly feel like shit like ive wasted the past fucking year of my life trying to improve only to learn that its done literally nothing.

Ephemeral wrote:

if that were the case, no changes would have ever been made to osu! since its original inception

there is no other game of this type available before us to work off - we are the pioneers

Umm, there's osu tatakae ouendan don't you know anything god

see you keep doing the whole "being a fucktard" thing which sets it back right to square one, truth

you should give many shits much more consistently and then people would be far more inclined to trust you again (maybe?)

also yeah i totally forgot that oto was a multiplayer game with user-made content and got like a few million unique users each month

MY BAD

anyway this thread lost any value it had so i'm outta here, peace

it's not worth being trusted by some of the cunts in charge, it has negative intrinsic value, don't waste mental or emotional energy on these guys reditum

ephemeral though, hes cool, not one of the people im talking about

Ephemeral wrote:

also yeah i totally forgot that oto was a multiplayer game with user-made content and got like a few million unique users each month

MY BAD

WELL I HOPE YOU LEARNED SOMETHING TODAY

Khelly wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

also yeah i totally forgot that oto was a multiplayer game with user-made content and got like a few million unique users each month

MY BAD

WELL I HOPE YOU LEARNED SOMETHING TODAY

I SURE DID

oh shit i posted in this after i said i wouldn't

#staffgaffs2016

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

it's not worth being trusted by some of the cunts in charge, it has negative intrinsic value, don't waste mental or emotional energy on these guys reditum

ephemeral though, hes cool

On one side I know that and im become more and more aware that im literally kicking a brick wall any time i want to express valid concerns to staff

On the other hand im literally holding back tears in my fucking programming class because regardless of anything, being explicitly told that a year of active work and change when i was literally ready to just get this account perma'd and move onto something else was entirely meaningless as my past is still something that lingers on, the literal reason i got denied from the BAT 3 years ago that (alongside with distateful comments from Wojjan) and the reason that ive been fighting a literal uphill battle in this game for so long.

And i think the worst thing is that people told me "nah bro you have a chance." even Loctav had told me that (see my Apology Thread in development) when its all a fucking lie. I wish someone could have just let me know that im better off not even trying.

be real, even if you had more pull do you really think you alone could change everything? At the end of the day it comes down to the agenda of a select few, dissidents are ignored. 40 pages of explosive negative backlash are essentially ignored, one idealistic former staff member is not enough. Just move on, the game is only worth being invested in if you're a player at this point. Or if you just stick around for the community..

even Peppy isnt enough, you still have Loctav and Zak posting after him trying to get their last word in. Zaks post got deleted, loctavs stays because he's actually important enough.

Very true. There are plenty of staff members that have tried being a link from staff to players only to run into the same issues as me.

Ive already had many recent "I told you so" moments happening over the past few months, but meh. Youd think id learn after 4+ years that my services arent appreciated and i shouldnt waste so much time on this.

I actually was able to get a refreshing break from this game by playing toontown. It might be good to get back into that.

the game is actually pretty decent if you do what i used to do, fire up the game and never even open the chat or talk to anyone unless they message you first. the chat is a shitstorm of autism and nazi modding, the multiplayer lobbies are awful, apparently being a mapper is just going to get worse. If you are purely and entirely invested in the simple and pure experience of clicking the circles, all the flaws of the pp system, the ranking criteria drama, the dictatorship of mods and qats are so far away and irrelevant that the game is enjoyable.

self improvement is the satisfying reason to keep playing, the carrot on the stick if you will. 90% of players are just playing the game. It's true that for the most part drama like this doesn't affect their experience at all, but if mappers are going to be scared off by shit criteria propositions, then well that DOES impact them.

ive said it before and ill say it again, mappers are the lifeblood of the game, a priceless resource in a game like this that relies entirely on community made content. The Staff should be doing their best to make as nutritional and wholesome of an environment as possible for them, but it's all about personal gain and controlling things with these people. It's absurd.

Nube wrote:

Actually you're full of shit here buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're only thinking of one scenario (which is arguably not even a majority of the cases) and while if things ran like you imply, then it would be against the rules if 2 guys have mapped the same song, and only one of them has a full spread, the other sends him his diff to get it ranked and not have to make some time consuming low difficulty diffs and get all of them modded again (wasting modders time as well). It's only logical to collaborate and help eachother out don't you think? If you have a perfect spread and add another difficulty which is the same as one you already have, whats the fucking problem? I think you're being way too cynical here...

then make a collab difficulty. or make a new mapset. you're never wasting anyone's time by making two different sets on the same song. or else 80% of all TV Size anime songs would be a waste of time because they are mapped and play the exact same way.

else you can just wise up and make a difficulty that's of a skill level the mapset hasn't covered yet.

like really this should be common sense but since i'm getting called out maybe i should lay down the basics

also i really want to comment on CDFA's tiny violin but that's a can of worms i don't want to open at risk of hurting feelings ahh fuck it let's do it -- just know that redemption works to a certain standard - if 5 fucking years down the line you still can't be called trustworthy then there's a damn well good reason not to ever trust you in any endeavour you may want to partake in. You've been given more chances than anyone else i've ever known on the staff and blown it every single time. how about you take a real good look in the mirror and realize how much you've pushed the patience of everyone that has ever given you a chance and then reflect on why you're feeling so persecuted. Don't take your own failures out on other people that aren't accountable for them.

In other words, the staff may have its bunch of problems, but you'd just add up to the pile. live and learn.

this shall be my last post in this thread

Thx for giving me an ultimatum instead of fucking me over in the false pretense that i still have a chance.

Im realizing more and more that its over. Im out of chances.

Ill figure out a plan of action within the coming week