[mapping discussion] "punk mapping"

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Okoratu
then why do you ask for opinions if you only value your own and defend against everyone who thinks differently?
Like all you did so far was saying that you find your map fun to play, hurray. I don't think your mindset in combination with this thread makes sense as you're actively looking for citicism with this thread and then tell everyone who brings forward arguments to basically go away lol.

to answer your few questions

1. I feel like if I understand "regular" mapping better, i might be able to apply this knowledge to my "punk maps".
Idk maybe once you understand regular mapping better you will stop making punk maps

2. A lot of people, after playing the "punk maps", will assume i have no idea what I'm doing. If I make a bunch of normal maps, or maybe even get a few ranked, I can at least point to them.
good luck.

1: Do you think anybody else, besides me, would consider my map fun to play, or am I just weird...?
There are a few people who enjoy clicking literally random objects (don't defend your map, if someone plays it and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to them that's their opinion), I'm not one of them.

2: Do we sometimes focus too much on what is considered "good mapping" rather than what is actually fun to play?
Good mapping and fun to play should never cancel each other out, if you make something you find boring under the concepts you grasp as good mapping you're doing something wrong.

3: Can maps that don't follow these "rules" be fun to play anyway; are there anything that objectively makes a mad good or bad, or is mapping entirely subjective?
You're asking if art is entirely subjective..?

4: Is it important to know how to follow the rules, even if your usual style is consistently breaking them?
The basic rules, if you're referring to the ranking criteria it would ideally only tell you how to make a non-broken map. Most of the rules and disqualifications happen for a reason, like they developed throughout years and are actually in a process of a major overhaul. If you refer to >rules of good mapping<, these don't exist, to each their own. Some people love some mappers while others absolutely hate them and they still get stuff ranked.
Topic Starter
jawns

Okoratu wrote:

then why do you ask for opinions if you only value your own and defend against everyone who thinks differently?
Like all you did so far was saying that you find your map fun to play, hurray. I don't think your mindset in combination with this thread makes sense as you're actively looking for citicism with this thread and then tell everyone who brings forward arguments to basically go away lol.
I feel that is a misconception of my intention with the thread, as I said this is meant for discussion rather than straight up criticism. If i was only looking for criticism, I would have simply typed the link to the map threat and "mod ples".
As this is for discussion, it's fairly obvious that I have already formed my opinion on the matter, and it will probably take a lot to change it. However, I don't think that's a reason not to discuss it. I obviously hope to influence the opinion of others, and perhaps I will change my opinion as well.
Furthermore, I don't think there's any discussion of the issue (or what I consider an issue), that some "trends" or "unwritten rules" can make people think poorly about an otherwise good map, and maybe even discourage mappers to experiment with their mapping.

And if it looks like I'm somehow trying to discourage further discussion, I'm very sorry, since that is definitely not the case. Honestly, I was waiting and hoping winber would respond to my points in my last reply. I'm always willing to discuss things further, even if I don't agree.

to answer your few questions

1. I feel like if I understand "regular" mapping better, i might be able to apply this knowledge to my "punk maps".
Idk maybe once you understand regular mapping better you will stop making punk maps
I've honestly already gone a bit away from that idea, since, in all honesty, I don't think I can improve much on the Velvet Green map by using more common mapping techniques/ideas. I'd rather just keep mapping the way I do, and hopefully it will evolve naturally that way.

2. A lot of people, after playing the "punk maps", will assume i have no idea what I'm doing. If I make a bunch of normal maps, or maybe even get a few ranked, I can at least point to them.
good luck.
Thanks!

1: Do you think anybody else, besides me, would consider my map fun to play, or am I just weird...?
There are a few people who enjoy clicking literally random objects (don't defend your map, if someone plays it and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to them that's their opinion), I'm not one of them.
As I've said, everything in the map makes sense to me (I've even considered making a video going over every single note), however I've come to terms with, that it doesn't make sense to a lot of other people. I will still try to explain why it makes sense, and I will also take criticism, as long as it doesn't just point out what is bad, but also WHY it is bad. But I do understand that ultimately I can't force people to like the map, like people can't force me to dislike it. I do feel, though, that me wanting to share something I'm proud of, with people that hopefully likes it the same way as I do is only natural.

2: Do we sometimes focus too much on what is considered "good mapping" rather than what is actually fun to play?
Good mapping and fun to play should never cancel each other out, if you make something you find boring under the concepts you grasp as good mapping you're doing something wrong.
What I mean with this question is more like: "can a map be fun even if it does not follow "good mapping". What I mean is, if you mod something, and you see something that doesn't look like good mapping, you might look at it and think "that's bad", however when playing it, it turns out that it actually works.
Or if you are a mapper, you might focus more on what is "good mapping", while you could perhaps have done something a bit out of the ordinary, that wound perhaps work even better.

3: Can maps that don't follow these "rules" be fun to play anyway; are there anything that objectively makes a mad good or bad, or is mapping entirely subjective?
You're asking if art is entirely subjective..?
Kinda, but kinda not. We like to think that all art forms are purely subjective, but there are always things that will be considered "better art". For beatmapping, an example could be, if the map isn't timed properly. Most people would agree, that that is a "bad beatmap". How far does these rules go, before it becomes subjective? If a map follows good flow and good spacing, chances are, it will probably be considered a good map, however can a map that doesn't follow good flow and spacing, be good as well, or even as good or better? That's my opinion anyway

4: Is it important to know how to follow the rules, even if your usual style is consistently breaking them?
The basic rules, if you're referring to the ranking criteria it would ideally only tell you how to make a non-broken map. Most of the rules and disqualifications happen for a reason, like they developed throughout years and are actually in a process of a major overhaul. If you refer to >rules of good mapping<, these don't exist, to each their own. Some people love some mappers while others absolutely hate them and they still get stuff ranked.
I would disagree, I would say there are some unwritten "rules of good mapping". There's an entire page on the wiki, with mapping techniques you can apply to your maps, that are considered "good", or at least "not bad". There are a few forum posts dedicated to what is considered "good flow" and what isn't.

For an example of these rules in action, I'll refer to Xexxar's map My hero t/397698/start=180. This map (as you probably know) was disqualified, one of the reasons being, the hardest difficulty is too hard, and thus doesn't fit the song. That's a very arbitrary reason in my opinion; I personally found it to fit the song quite well, and as was also pointed out, difficulty is subjective, depending on who is playing the map. However, it seemed like a lot of people agreed, that the map was simply too hard. To me, there didn't really seem to be any reason for this, apart from that's just the way it is: hence why I think it's kind of an unwritten rule.

But I guess my main argument really boils down to this: There are a lot of unwritten rules, but there seems to be more "dos" than "don'ts" (apart from the example above). My question is, though, is a map that doesn't do the "dos" always bad?

Thank you for you response btw, this is more the kind of discussion I was hoping to get with this thread.
Okoratu
It's actually funny because you remind me a bit of myself in 2012 except that I mapped for myself and didn't make threads asking about what people think about the style I used in a certain map. But in the very beginning I thought that everything i placed makes sense with the song. My own creation seemed logical to me as I made it by playtesting it a lot and thought about the song when placing notes. Whenever I gave it to other people they went like "uhh this somehow works, but it's weird". After some time (more like after about 1.5 years of doing that) I started to mod others' maps because I hoped to find out why my own maps seem so dull and lame to me, the more I did that the more I became aware of the conceptual and rhythmical flaws in my earlier maps and started to dislike them for that reason even more, but I had a point to work from towards making something that other people can understand, predict and maybe also enjoy.

---

Just like mainstream media, there are mainstream mapping techniques, people just started collecting them to have a compendium, most of them only work in certain contexts and are terrible in others. Believe it or not people copy other people's ideas because they like their ideas and incorporate them into their own work by mixing it with their interpretations.

If you have to explain why your map makes sense it probably doesn't, lol. If you map for yourself, that's fine! It only has to make sense to you yourself, you don't have to defend it to anyone, after all you made it for yourself!

If you map for other people you should aim to make something that follows a song and is predictable / understandable by other people as well and in order to do that you need to study what's predictable for people, which is easily done by looking at techniques, patterns and setups of maps you enjoy playing. If you aim to get a map ranked, you won't be doing it for yourself nor will you be the one who plays it the most, others will. Others will have opinions on your map, your style, your setup. If they don't understand what you were trying to express you probably failed to convey what you felt when placing objects.

As for your art argument it's just outright dumb to compare cubism with hyper-realism, each art style stands on its own and is defined by its own rules and regulations, while certain styles are popular, others are unique or in a niche because only a few people follow them. Timing is a technical part and therefore a bad argument for something subjective, it has to be correct otherwise the map will feel really retarded when playing it. The creative part of mapping is placing objects to the music and making them interact with each other in certain ways with certain motives. Basically most general Rules in the RC just define "a non-broken beatmap". Your map can still be boring af / rhythmically wrong, but not technically broken when following these regulations.
And yes each mapper and player probably defines for themselves what spacing styles, visual styles and song genres they like.

The only "unwritten" rule is make sense to other people probably. Flow is subjective, placement is subjective people just collect commonly used ideas because they seem to like collecting ideas which work well for them.

Xexxar's map used higher spacing what apparently most people deemed acceptable for the song (yes, this is subjective! People like being biased! You also are biased towards the style in that map, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist!) and someone came to the thread and explained their opinion, this happens and is encouraged in qualified maps. Since a discussion was going on while it was qualified, it was pulled out of qualification to continue discussing without having time pressure, that's mainly all there is to it. I personally didn't think it's overboard or anything, but didn't like it either and Xexxar decided to stop trying to get it requalified for now or something.

The making sense part is not written down because it's mostly something that people develop upon gaining more experience with the editor. This is what makes mapping fun, different people interpret the same song differently and both interpretations can work very well next to each other for many people!
If your interpretation of a song gets mainly people asking "what the fuck are you doing there? This is so unpredictable that it feels really random to me", then that means that
  1. they aren't skilled enough to comprehend the map
  2. your map is too complicated for your target audience
  3. your map lacks an understandable concept for anyone who can't read your mind


Idk if any of this contributes to your discussion, as I'm basically saying something similar to winber but with less provoking wording lol.
N0thingSpecial
Do you think anybody else, besides me, would consider my map fun to play, or am I just weird...?
Your map is like the abstract art of mapping, and right now I feel like mapping is at its renaissance period where everything needs to be justified aesthetically and practically, the "by the community for the community" mindset. i would feel like your mapping style just won't fit velvet green, it feels more like dubstep kind of mapping where there are large fluctuation in spacing, I actually have a friend who enjoys unorthodox maps, but all of the maps are unranked,

Do we sometimes focus too much on what is considered "good mapping" rather than what is actually fun to play?
As I said before, no. The "good" mapping style is like this today cause the community find it fun.

Can maps that don't follow these "rules" be fun to play anyway; are there anything that objectively makes a mad good or bad, or is mapping entirely subjective?
coughHollow Wingscough Yes they can. but if you want your map ranked you either 1) appeal to the majority 2) have fuk ton of kudosu

Is it important to know how to follow the rules, even if your usual style is consistently breaking them?
never been there, don't know how to answer this.

FYI: I have 0 kudosu
winber1

jawns wrote:

Honestly, I was waiting and hoping winber would respond to my points in my last reply.
I did not reply because I don't really have much else to say to you. You talk about trying to get discussion and not criticism, but to be fair, you know almost no one will appreciate the map and that everyone will probably think you don't know what you're doing, yet you expect us not to criticize. If not outright criticizing, it will be a discussion on criticisms.

The reason I have not much else to say is because art is subjective, and you can go do whatever the hell you want that makes you happy. If you ever want to somehow join the community of mapping, you really need to start hammering down specifics and details. If not, as Okoratu said, do as you please. You say you can explain properly why each note is there, and perhaps maybe with enough time you can, but at the same time with enough time I can easily explain why that doesn't make sense.

However, I do completely agree with you on Xexxar's map that the map is perfectly fine and entertaining to play. The only reason I think people were bitching about it is because half of them were inexperienced weeaboos who couldn't play the map properly cuz they missed like half of the jumps. On the same note, I will also say that I explained it incorrectly and exaggerated when I said your map is literally completely spaced the same. It was more of a problem of consistency with sections, and you often had anti-spacing and large jumps that could have been transitioned into more smoothly. I don't know how much you thought about actual playability and transitions into notes, but they way the cursor moves is always quite important, and I personally would make sure I don't repeat similar movements over and over again nor add really awkward patterns and shapes. In your case, you use essentially one type of movement, and it's usually in a zig-zaggy type of feel and/or triangle type of feel. What I felt worked much better with Xexxar's map is his consistency with his spacing. He didn't add all this random anti-spacing and changing rhythm in his piece, which obviously has a lot to do with the song choice itself, but can be accommodated through mapping. And in my opinion, his map is much more aesthetically pleasing as the notes and patterns he uses are clear. Even with varying spacing, you can make interesting patterns, and I do that a lot with my maps.

I actually had a phase similar to you where I was like "I'm not changing anything if you say it looks ugly." And even I thought the sliders were slightly ugly, but I did it because I felt like many mappers previously had used sliders that were "less than par" and I liked them a lot, so for a few maps I just tried not to care too much about aesthetics and just run with it. I'm recently to really feel that although the maps weren't terrible, I personally did not like them, and I don't think I should force myself to be "unaesthetic" so to speak. If you know how to and can make nice patterns and shapes, you really should if it matches your style. I was trying to force something that wasn't me onto myself.
neonat

jawns wrote:

But I guess my main argument really boils down to this: There are a lot of unwritten rules, but there seems to be more "dos" than "don'ts" (apart from the example above). My question is, though, is a map that doesn't do the "dos" always bad?
Depends on what those "dos" are I guess, also those are mainly just to get things ranked also lol. You don't need to care about anything if it's just made without any of such intentions.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

2) have fuk ton of kudosu
That doesn't matter one bit
N0thingSpecial

neonat wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

2) have fuk ton of kudosu
That doesn't matter one bit
oops, but would it be right to say that experienced mappers have more freedom to experiment?
-[Koinuri]

N0thingSpecial wrote:

oops, but would it be right to say that experienced mappers have more freedom to experiment?
The experienced mappers doesn't have more freedom to experiment; they just have the basics necessary to experiment. New mappers doesn't do well experimenting because through the experimenting process, they violate something you should never violate, such as emphasis using jumps, basic flows, etc etc. Instead of being "creative", they are being "erroneous".
Topic Starter
jawns
Whoa, this certainly got a lot of attention... Thanks to everyone for replying!

Okoratu wrote:

It's actually funny because you remind me a bit of myself in 2012 except that I mapped for myself and didn't make threads asking about what people think about the style I used in a certain map. But in the very beginning I thought that everything i placed makes sense with the song. My own creation seemed logical to me as I made it by playtesting it a lot and thought about the song when placing notes. Whenever I gave it to other people they went like "uhh this somehow works, but it's weird". After some time (more like after about 1.5 years of doing that) I started to mod others' maps because I hoped to find out why my own maps seem so dull and lame to me, the more I did that the more I became aware of the conceptual and rhythmical flaws in my earlier maps and started to dislike them for that reason even more, but I had a point to work from towards making something that other people can understand, predict and maybe also enjoy.

---
Cut most of the quote to save space...

Yeah, I guess that kinda sounds like me. I have a hard time imagining me not liking the map in a few months though, or even years, since I enjoy playing it so much. However, the reason I like the map might be because I like the way the song is evolving, since my map follows that at least to some extend (and also I think it's a great song in general).

I guess the way I map is similar to how I work with art in general. I make something I like, and share it in the hope that other people will like it as well, rather than make something I think other people will like in the first place. This is probably the reason my mas don't make sense to a lot of other people (and one reason I don't like mainstream media in general).

But judging from the replies, it does seem like people might not be as biased as I initially thought, which is cool :)

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Do you think anybody else, besides me, would consider my map fun to play, or am I just weird...?
Your map is like the abstract art of mapping, and right now I feel like mapping is at its renaissance period where everything needs to be justified aesthetically and practically, the "by the community for the community" mindset. i would feel like your mapping style just won't fit velvet green, it feels more like dubstep kind of mapping where there are large fluctuation in spacing, I actually have a friend who enjoys unorthodox maps, but all of the maps are unranked,

Do we sometimes focus too much on what is considered "good mapping" rather than what is actually fun to play?
As I said before, no. The "good" mapping style is like this today cause the community find it fun.

Can maps that don't follow these "rules" be fun to play anyway; are there anything that objectively makes a mad good or bad, or is mapping entirely subjective?
coughHollow Wingscough Yes they can. but if you want your map ranked you either 1) appeal to the majority 2) have fuk ton of kudosu

Is it important to know how to follow the rules, even if your usual style is consistently breaking them?
never been there, don't know how to answer this.

FYI: I have 0 kudosu
Don't really think I have anything to reply with, apart from your points seem to make sense, and I mostly agree with them.

Btw, would be cool if you or your friend had any recommendations on unorthodox maps :)
Endaris
Use the edit-button.
Thank you.
Topic Starter
jawns

winber1 wrote:

jawns wrote:

Honestly, I was waiting and hoping winber would respond to my points in my last reply.
I did not reply because I don't really have much else to say to you. You talk about trying to get discussion and not criticism, but to be fair, you know almost no one will appreciate the map and that everyone will probably think you don't know what you're doing, yet you expect us not to criticize. If not outright criticizing, it will be a discussion on criticisms.

The reason I have not much else to say is because art is subjective, and you can go do whatever the hell you want that makes you happy. If you ever want to somehow join the community of mapping, you really need to start hammering down specifics and details. If not, as Okoratu said, do as you please. You say you can explain properly why each note is there, and perhaps maybe with enough time you can, but at the same time with enough time I can easily explain why that doesn't make sense.
Deleted most of the quote to save space.

First of all, I'm not at all upset about you not replying in the first place, I can see why my quote might have looked a bit passive/aggressive, that was in no way intentional.

I kinda disagree about the "discussion/criticism" thing, since I feel like the discussion is already about mapping mentality in general, and not focused on my map, or my mapping style in particular. I also think I've changed my opinion a bit already, which is a successful discussion in my opinion.

I didn't want to compare my map to Xexxar's map, I just used it as an example. I think they are fundamentally different, as you said, I don't really focus on aesthetic at all, however that might change in the future. I'm definitely not as reluctant to change as before.

neonat wrote:

jawns wrote:

But I guess my main argument really boils down to this: There are a lot of unwritten rules, but there seems to be more "dos" than "don'ts" (apart from the example above). My question is, though, is a map that doesn't do the "dos" always bad?
Depends on what those "dos" are I guess, also those are mainly just to get things ranked also lol. You don't need to care about anything if it's just made without any of such intentions.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

2) have fuk ton of kudosu
That doesn't matter one bit
I was more talking about bias, that some think there are things you should always (or almost always) do, and might automatically think less of a map, if it doesn't do those things.

However, I definitely don't think people are nearly as biased, as I thought before
Okoratu

Endaris wrote:

Use the edit-button.
Thank you.
Topic Starter
jawns

-[Koinuri] wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

oops, but would it be right to say that experienced mappers have more freedom to experiment?
The experienced mappers doesn't have more freedom to experiment; they just have the basics necessary to experiment. New mappers doesn't do well experimenting because through the experimenting process, they violate something you should never violate, such as emphasis using jumps, basic flows, etc etc. Instead of being "creative", they are being "erroneous".
This is what I mean by "unwritten rules". I don't agree with the idea, that there are thing you should never violate, especially since these concepts seems quite vague.
Okoratu
"a beat in the song is stressed so stress it somehow in your map to follow the song!"
how vague is this
Endaris

Okoratu wrote:

"a beat in the song is stressed so stress it somehow in your map to follow the song!"
how vague is this
Many ways lead to Rome.
Except for the one where you don't stress it at all.
That's like not even starting to go one of the many ways.
Luvdic
It's okay jawns, I know how it feels when people thinks that your maps are weird. Apparently I am one of the weird mappers too.

Also don't feel so down, you never know if by 2020 this style will become the norm!

In more seriousness though, I am someone that believes that shapes and consistency is what gives structure to a map, and you already have consistency, so try to improve your shapes in your patterns.
Manysi
Dude, you will be alone in this world with your current mentality. By that i mean the community wont support you, and your ''punk maps'' which is mainly because you refuse critisism. You will get bored of this sooner or later and maybe want to map properly. Take my word, its just a matter of time when you stop or the community will disinherit you if you even mess with them.

Ok, this was too harsh. But i have a very good reason to discourage you from what you are about to do.
I had the same mentality about a year ago when i started mapping. I also thought my maps are great but only because i wasnt able to read them. (couldnt even fc hards) I wanted to map 5* or more and i cant find the words how bad of a decision it was. My maps looked nice but didnt make any logical sense. This affected my whole career in mapping. The moment i got bored of it and wanted to make stuff that i can actually play i had to face reality... I was like: ''wtf is wrong, why do i struggle playing this?'' then I created a discussion in here like you. I thought its the spacing, people ofc didnt understand what i was missing so i had to map for 5 more months to finally realize.

I would say you are safe as long as you dont get lost inside your head and think what you do is special and nobody experienced the same. The difference is they didnt take their first impressions seriously. They were realistic enough to see that they dont know shit as newbies. You are not the special snowflake, at least not yet.

The best advice i can give your is to read this first: t/239778/ then try to analyze older (2010-2011) maps. Keep in mind that what you feel like fitting the music will make little sense most of the time. You have to do it technically by following instruments and try to represent them.
For example pick one like drums for a section and swap to guitar if it gets the dominance. You are free to experiment as long as you make sense with it.
Ask people for further help and accept their advice if you see they are experienced. Hope i could help,good luck!
-[Koinuri]

jawns wrote:

-[Koinuri] wrote:

The experienced mappers doesn't have more freedom to experiment; they just have the basics necessary to experiment. New mappers doesn't do well experimenting because through the experimenting process, they violate something you should never violate, such as emphasis using jumps, basic flows, etc etc. Instead of being "creative", they are being "erroneous".
This is what I mean by "unwritten rules". I don't agree with the idea, that there are thing you should never violate, especially since these concepts seems quite vague.
There's always going to be "unwritten rules" we have to follow in anything, even in arts. Take music for example. It has a lot of theorems on which notes to use, and we don't use many of the 20k hz ish range we can hear because it's already been established by bunch of people that they usually suck and you won't end up with something nice using them. osu! community has slowly developed some rules to address things that work or doesn't work the same way. Some of these can be broken on certain occasion if done right, but you can assume it's going to be bad for the most part.

Additionally, there's one super important rule in osu! you should NEVER break when you're mapping a song, which is "maps should always compliment the song it's mapped to". You can't make a quiet part the hardest section, you can't add streams where there are no sounds, etc. These "unwritten rules" are mostly based on this idea.

I assume you mentioned spacing in your first post because some people pointed that out on your first map. Problem with having large spacing for entire map like your "punk mapping", is that a random sections here and there has huge jumps only the hardest part should have. It makes the hardest part feel normal in comparison and ends up not standing out. It's kind of like how 100% white is theoretically the brightest, but white with shadow look significantly brighter. That's why you need "shadows" in your map aka easier parts with smaller distance, so your hardest part will actually be the hardest. And this is why it's one of an "unwritten rule". By failing to properly making the strongest parts stand out, you are violating the one rule you can't break.

There's nothing vague about these "rules". Through more experience in mapping, you'll realize that they all have valid reasoning behind them.
Topic Starter
jawns

Endaris wrote:

Okoratu wrote:

"a beat in the song is stressed so stress it somehow in your map to follow the song!"
how vague is this
Many ways lead to Rome.
Except for the one where you don't stress it at all.
That's like not even starting to go one of the many ways.
Yeah, that's why I find it vague. One person can say "this best is stressed in the song, why is it not stressed in your map?", while someone else can say "I don't thin that beat is stressed in the song" or "I think that beat is stressed enough in the map". I think that leads back to the idea off mapping being purely subjective, but the way it was presented in the post, looked to me like it was an objective rule.

Xanandra wrote:

It's okay jawns, I know how it feels when people thinks that your maps are weird. Apparently I am one of the weird mappers too.

Also don't feel so down, you never know if by 2020 this style will become the norm!

In more seriousness though, I am someone that believes that shapes and consistency is what gives structure to a map, and you already have consistency, so try to improve your shapes in your patterns.
thanks for the advice!

Manysi wrote:

Dude, you will be alone in this world with your current mentality. By that i mean the community wont support you, and your ''punk maps'' which is mainly because you refuse critisism. You will get bored of this sooner or later and maybe want to map properly. Take my word, its just a matter of time when you stop or the community will disinherit you if you even mess with them.

Ok, this was too harsh. But i have a very good reason to discourage you from what you are about to do.
I had the same mentality about a year ago when i started mapping. I also thought my maps are great but only because i wasnt able to read them. (couldnt even fc hards) I wanted to map 5* or more and i cant find the words how bad of a decision it was. My maps looked nice but didnt make any logical sense. This affected my whole career in mapping. The moment i got bored of it and wanted to make stuff that i can actually play i had to face reality... I was like: ''wtf is wrong, why do i struggle playing this?'' then I created a discussion in here like you. I thought its the spacing, people ofc didnt understand what i was missing so i had to map for 5 more months to finally realize.

I would say you are safe as long as you dont get lost inside your head and think what you do is special and nobody experienced the same. The difference is they didnt take their first impressions seriously. They were realistic enough to see that they dont know shit as newbies. You are not the special snowflake, at least not yet.

The best advice i can give your is to read this first: t/239778/ then try to analyze older (2010-2011) maps. Keep in mind that what you feel like fitting the music will make little sense most of the time. You have to do it technically by following instruments and try to represent them.
For example pick one like drums for a section and swap to guitar if it gets the dominance. You are free to experiment as long as you make sense with it.
Ask people for further help and accept their advice if you see they are experienced. Hope i could help,good luck!
I think the reason I have a hard time taking criticism, is because I don't feel I have yet gotten any good criticism. I even wrote in the description of Velvet Green: "If you mention the distance spacing, you better have a damn good argument to why it should be changed, besides "It's too inconsistent!"".

People might say stuff like "it doesn't make sense" or "the spacing is bad", but they never seem to give any reasons to do so. I've never liked the idea, that you should blindly take any criticism from anyone who is more experienced than you, when it comes to any creative art form really.

Another reason is, that I enjoy playing the map so much, I honestly don't think I've enjoyed any map as much as this one. Some might argue, that the map is a bit out of my skill level, and I admit, I do have to put on NF when playing it, but I am generally quite good at reading difficult map (I have defeated airman). I can play every part of the song well, apart from the hardest part in the middle.

But if anybody has any criticism, they are willing to explain well, I'll be happy to take it to heart. And if I disagree, it's probably because I have reason to do so.

-[Koinuri] wrote:

jawns wrote:

This is what I mean by "unwritten rules". I don't agree with the idea, that there are thing you should never violate, especially since these concepts seems quite vague.
There's always going to be "unwritten rules" we have to follow in anything, even in arts. Take music for example. It has a lot of theorems on which notes to use, and we don't use many of the 20k hz ish range we can hear because it's already been established by bunch of people that they usually suck and you won't end up with something nice using them. osu! community has slowly developed some rules to address things that work or doesn't work the same way. Some of these can be broken on certain occasion if done right, but you can assume it's going to be bad for the most part.

Additionally, there's one super important rule in osu! you should NEVER break when you're mapping a song, which is "maps should always compliment the song it's mapped to". You can't make a quiet part the hardest section, you can't add streams where there are no sounds, etc. These "unwritten rules" are mostly based on this idea.

I assume you mentioned spacing in your first post because some people pointed that out on your first map. Problem with having large spacing for entire map like your "punk mapping", is that a random sections here and there has huge jumps only the hardest part should have. It makes the hardest part feel normal in comparison and ends up not standing out. It's kind of like how 100% white is theoretically the brightest, but white with shadow look significantly brighter. That's why you need "shadows" in your map aka easier parts with smaller distance, so your hardest part will actually be the hardest. And this is why it's one of an "unwritten rule". By failing to properly making the strongest parts stand out, you are violating the one rule you can't break.

There's nothing vague about these "rules". Through more experience in mapping, you'll realize that they all have valid reasoning behind them.
I agree that a lot of music is based on theorems, and ideas like dividing the song up in fours or threes. This is the reason these two time signatures are the most common, for some reason music made this way is naturally pleasing to listen to.
However, there's also tons and tons of good music, that break these rules, and are amazing, not just despite them breaking these rules, but sometimes because they are breaking these rules. A good example, is coincidentally Velvet Green. The song for the most part doesn't seem to follow a specific time signature, and the rules of music says: "you have to follow a time signature, otherwise the rhythm makes no sense". This song breaks the rule, and it ended up being amazing because of it.

I agree with the "maps should always compliment the song it's mapped to" statement, however there is a clear problem with it. Since both music and mapping is subjective, it's more or less impossible to say that something doesn't compliment the song. The only real time I think you can say that, is when there are hitcircles where there is no music; otherwise it's completely up to the interpretation of the mapper.

And in regards to my own map, I really can't see how everything is so hard that the hardest parts don't stand out. There are a clear difference between the instrumental parts (harder), and the verse/chorus (a lot easier), and in the middle bit, where the BPM increases significantly, it becomes a lot more difficult. I tried removing that bit, and the star rating decreased to 6.18!

And while all these unwritten rules have valid reasons behind them, there can also be valid reasons to break them.
N0thingSpecial
My Friend says he's not to keen on your map.
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