i have to ask, when you say that you found a substantial amount of players to be well past the 5k mark, did you do this based on raw numbers, or on who'd be competing? While a team like texas or california has their entire roster full of very strong players, there are others where the quality drops very quickly after the first two or three players. While numerically, seeing a bulk of players in a certain range may make it seem like that's going to be an active skill range, the active playerbase skill (i.e. the level at which teams will be competing) may very well be worse than that simply because certain teams are much stronger than others and have more of (for instance) the 3digit players.
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Osu! United States Cup | Canceled!
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Seconded, the staff is clearly trying their best and I commend that. If you guys need assistance I would be happy to help as well.0120 wrote:
as far as im concerned its not the individual staff thats doing horrible but rather that there just isnt enough people to run it compared to the amount of games there are.
We did the check based on raw numbers, yes. When we saw the spreadsheet during our initial check before we started composing the mappool, though, the majority of people who had signed up were within this high skill group, and there were very few outside of that range, so we didn't really think it through much further.HulbeH wrote:
i have to ask, when you say that you found a substantial amount of players to be well past the 5k mark, did you do this based on raw numbers, or on who'd be competing? While a team like texas or california has their entire roster full of very strong players, there are others where the quality drops very quickly after the first two or three players. While numerically, seeing a bulk of players in a certain range may make it seem like that's going to be an active skill range, the active playerbase skill (i.e. the level at which teams will be competing) may very well be worse than that simply because certain teams are much stronger than others and have more of (for instance) the 3digit players.
But yeah, you have a good point. We definitely can improve on the mappool in this regard. That said, my initial concern was that we'd pick maps that were too easy...at least I didn't get that wrong!
Well, here's another thing in regards to feedback: If a team (or in this case, state) has less than 4 players, the team shouldn't even be allowed to play. Allowing a player from one state to have a 4x multiplier just because he's the only person that can represent that state will be seen as unfair to the Twitch viewers watching the tournament, which causes some terrible PR.
Also, you need to consider that since half the player base are high school teenagers, you probably don't want to hold a tournament in the middle of February when they have school to worry about.
As it is, my honest suggestion would be to cancel the tournament as it is, go back to the drawing board, figure out what you need to improve on in all sides. Then announce a new United States Cup in April, with the matches to be held in June/July/August. You want to hold multiple rounds of registration as well to ensure that each state has a team to represent (example, Person A lives in California but attended the University of Connecticut in college. Person A could register for Connecticut after the first round of registration after finding out that California is full)
(and for the record, given the quality of some of the teams that participated in the first round, your initial mappool was too hard. there was a reason I withdrew Connecticut from the tournament)
Also, you need to consider that since half the player base are high school teenagers, you probably don't want to hold a tournament in the middle of February when they have school to worry about.
As it is, my honest suggestion would be to cancel the tournament as it is, go back to the drawing board, figure out what you need to improve on in all sides. Then announce a new United States Cup in April, with the matches to be held in June/July/August. You want to hold multiple rounds of registration as well to ensure that each state has a team to represent (example, Person A lives in California but attended the University of Connecticut in college. Person A could register for Connecticut after the first round of registration after finding out that California is full)
(and for the record, given the quality of some of the teams that participated in the first round, your initial mappool was too hard. there was a reason I withdrew Connecticut from the tournament)
Honestly I would just scrap the whole idea of having a player's score multiplied by 4 if he's the only one playing and just disqualify him or put him in another state. I'd easily win the whole thing if I was allowed to play alone for Texas because as a captain it is much easier to worry about your own score than the scores of 3 other people playing with you. This method of scoring is really illogical and unbalanced and I wouldn't be surprised if one-man states would go very far up in the tournament because of how easy they have it for them.
I agree, and setting up 1v1/2v2 matches wouldn't be a good idea because it's meant to be a full team based tournament, like owc.Xilver wrote:
Honestly I would just scrap the whole idea of having a player's score multiplied by 4 if he's the only one playing and just disqualify him or put him in another state. I'd easily win the whole thing if I was allowed to play alone for Texas because as a captain it is much easier to worry about your own score than the scores of 3 other people playing with you. This method of scoring is really illogical and unbalanced and I wouldn't be surprised if one-man states would go very far up in the tournament because of how easy they have it for them.
mappool reveal at showcase question mark
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??
This is still a major failing as far as the map pool goes. Regardless of what your spreadsheet says, if the recommended cutoff is 5k then the first round map pool better be targeting 5k. Each map pool specifically should target a certain rank that gradually increases.Mahogany wrote:
-The difficulty of maps was due to our own calculations of the average rank of players participating. While we recommended 5k and above, our spreadsheets showed us that the largest concentration of players were actually quite higher ranked than 5k. We based our choices around this concentration, hence the high difficulty of maps. Regardless, this is still a legitimate complaint, and I don't want to hide behind excuses: we will be sure to correct this in the next mappool.
Also, there seems to be great inconsistencies in the difficulty levels of the maps. Gimmick maps are fine but you should at least make sure they are consistent in difficulty with the non gimmick maps. Algebra and Rally go Round are both around the same star rating with one being a gimmick map and the other being a super straight forward consistency map. They should not be in the same pool. It's similar to consistency in mapping when people bitch about random cross screen jumps in an otherwise 4* map.
The map pool just seems all over the fucking place but since I'm not playing anyways I didn't bother to comment until now.
I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps 
No mappool showcase this week? I see week 2 mappool already out, or did I miss the stream?
Same difference. Point remains that you should choose those maps from a star rating significantly lower than that of your basic easy to read consistency checks. Even the people who have really good reading will stuggle to play those maps at the same star level as the harder easy to read maps they can play.Mahogany wrote:
I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps
bad mappool. you took a huge step back in difficulty from the first map pool (which was too hard for the first round anyways). if anything, the maps should be at around the same difficulty as the previous maps. just my input on things
Just checked challengone, thank you @KevEz for posting this, i gave notification about mappool should stay same for this round but end decision goes to organizer.
@_WinRAWR, on behalv of mappool pickers, i need to appologize, as we saw many comments about map being way too hard and imbalanced, for next round there was prepared another one. If this one will not go live for this round, we will take care to fix it and balance it more for teams left in quarterfinals (where imo should be applyed new mappool). Thanks a lot for your input.
@_WinRAWR, on behalv of mappool pickers, i need to appologize, as we saw many comments about map being way too hard and imbalanced, for next round there was prepared another one. If this one will not go live for this round, we will take care to fix it and balance it more for teams left in quarterfinals (where imo should be applyed new mappool). Thanks a lot for your input.
Oh, I'm aware. I just didn't really respond to that because I thought it had been covered prior. It is a valid point, of course.chainpullz wrote:
Same difference. Point remains that you should choose those maps from a star rating significantly lower than that of your basic easy to read consistency checks. Even the people who have really good reading will stuggle to play those maps at the same star level as the harder easy to read maps they can play.Mahogany wrote:
I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps
I used this.samotoda wrote:
The first no-mod map is not available.. rip
If I somehow got the wrong one, someone please let me know since there's like three with the same background.
Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
Topic Starter
The map has been swapped out.samotoda wrote:
The first no-mod map is not available.. rip
The Week 3 mappool (once it gets released) will be usedsamotoda wrote:
Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
Why are the DT picks so much harder than everything else in the mappool?
~5* on average, then easiest DT is 5.56*
Thanks for pp btw :3
~5* on average, then easiest DT is 5.56*
Thanks for pp btw :3
~5* on average, then easiest DT is 5.56*Star rating doesn't provide patterns which should be pretty easy for this maps, additionaly BPM after DT isn't brutal for most of players.
Thanks for pp btw :3
I am glad that you got sweet pepe, keep going my friend! Wish you even more sweet FC soon enough!
I will be completely honest and kinda rude, but I don't care at this point.
The map pool is, in my opinion, just ridiculous. The tournament was recommended for players above rank 5k which is perfectly fine. But selecting maps that are harder than most OWC maps (1st week maps were i would say quarter finals/semi finals in OWC, except the DT mappool which was a lot more easier than any other mods) and now the 2nd week maps seems to be easier than the first week.
First of all the maps shouldnt have been that ridiculously hard in the first round where all the players are playing. Some of the players that have signed up are lower than rank 5k, while those maps were hard to FC even by some of the rather skilled player (I had quite a struggle on some of these maps, and I think im a decent player). While a tournament is a competition, it is also entertainment. As a team member, I hated seeing my fellow teammate fail/struggle and feel bad because of their performance. I want them to have fun, I want them to know how exciting competing is against other amazing players in this community, but if they cant even pass the map, wheres all the fun and excitement?
I know these are all just my opinion, and many players are really competitive, but for the sake of them at least give some of these players a fighting chance against people.
To make it short: The maps in the first week should have been around 4.5-5 star on maps that are NOT 5 minutes long and NOT slider heavy. The maps this week should have been slightly harder (maybe around 5.2-5.5 with FEW slider heavy maps). Some of the maps chosen in the first week could have very well been in semifinals. The tournament difficulty should not be calculated by the highest skilled players (#1-15 or so in USA) but rather calculated by the average of the overall. It is ridiculous to see so many 4-0 matches, and so many fails on the first week. This not only demotivates some of the players new to tournaments, but also makes the tournament less exciting. I hope i'm getting my point through, because I like the concept of this tournament, but not the overall organizing.
The map pool is, in my opinion, just ridiculous. The tournament was recommended for players above rank 5k which is perfectly fine. But selecting maps that are harder than most OWC maps (1st week maps were i would say quarter finals/semi finals in OWC, except the DT mappool which was a lot more easier than any other mods) and now the 2nd week maps seems to be easier than the first week.
First of all the maps shouldnt have been that ridiculously hard in the first round where all the players are playing. Some of the players that have signed up are lower than rank 5k, while those maps were hard to FC even by some of the rather skilled player (I had quite a struggle on some of these maps, and I think im a decent player). While a tournament is a competition, it is also entertainment. As a team member, I hated seeing my fellow teammate fail/struggle and feel bad because of their performance. I want them to have fun, I want them to know how exciting competing is against other amazing players in this community, but if they cant even pass the map, wheres all the fun and excitement?
I know these are all just my opinion, and many players are really competitive, but for the sake of them at least give some of these players a fighting chance against people.
To make it short: The maps in the first week should have been around 4.5-5 star on maps that are NOT 5 minutes long and NOT slider heavy. The maps this week should have been slightly harder (maybe around 5.2-5.5 with FEW slider heavy maps). Some of the maps chosen in the first week could have very well been in semifinals. The tournament difficulty should not be calculated by the highest skilled players (#1-15 or so in USA) but rather calculated by the average of the overall. It is ridiculous to see so many 4-0 matches, and so many fails on the first week. This not only demotivates some of the players new to tournaments, but also makes the tournament less exciting. I hope i'm getting my point through, because I like the concept of this tournament, but not the overall organizing.
You know, I was kind of serious when I said this tournament really needs to be scrapped and redone from scratch. Any more mistakes and you're going to see players stage a walkout from this tournament.
Sadly, I'm going to have to agree here. Although most of you are trying your best to make things work out, it's just not happening. It would probably be in your best interest to put this tourny on hiatus until everything is organized. There are a handful of people in this thread who can easily do their part in making this tournament a lot better than it currently is. I'm not saying that you guys are doing a bad job, it's just that you could be doing a lot better.Minhtam wrote:
You know, I was kind of serious when I said this tournament really needs to be scrapped and redone from scratch. Any more mistakes and you're going to see players stage a walkout from this tournament.
For the sake of the remainder of this tournament, and for future credibility, please pause this tournament. This is something I would like to see be carried on throughout the upcoming years, but not like this. Select some higher ranked players, or people with more experience in organizing tournaments, and get them to help you out. This could be so much more than it is, and could easily be spread out to multiple countries.
Don't be discouraged, but some kind of intervention is needed. I'm not sure anyone is really content with the tournament is currently being run. If you want to see more exciting and enjoyable matches, please do something.
One positive thing I would like to mention is the kindness and acceptance of some of the current staff. The map selectors have been very pleasant and accepting of their mistakes. They show a clear intent of improving at their job. I feel it would be a disservice to not appropriately credit them for that. Not many people are open to criticism.
Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.
Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.
Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.
Topic Starter
Xilver wrote:
Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.
Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.
I realize that this second week mappool was kind of rushed, and will take measures to redo it as soon as i can.
As for "remaking the whole tournament", I'm afraid that i cannot simply do that. Yes, i realize i've made mistakes, i've sometimes even thought to myself that i'm not cut-out to do this, and that i shouldn't have gone through with the idea.
HOWEVER!
I have put my blood-sweat-and-tears into this thing, and i am not prepared to just throw it all away, just to redo all of this, and risk it happening again. As much as you may hate me for saying this, I cannot and will not reset everything, I will try my damned hardest, however, to clean up this horrible mess that i have unfortunately created for you guys.
You really need to think about it, because I am seriously considering opening registration for a retooled USA cup this or next week (to begin in June), which addresses all of the concerns that the players currently have. I don't want to have to do that.TheBronyGames wrote:
Xilver wrote:
Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.
Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.
I realize that this second week mappool was kind of rushed, and will take measures to redo it as soon as i can.
As for "remaking the whole tournament", I'm afraid that i cannot simply do that. Yes, i realize i've made mistakes, i've sometimes even thought to myself that i'm not cut-out to do this, and that i shouldn't have gone through with the idea.
HOWEVER!
I have put my blood-sweat-and-tears into this thing, and i am not prepared to just throw it all away, just to redo all of this, and risk it happening again. As much as you may hate me for saying this, I cannot and will not reset everything, I will try my damned hardest, however, to clean up this horrible mess that i have unfortunately created for you guys.
Trust me, I've been there before. I've put my "blood, sweat, and tears", on major projects that I've desperately wanted to be successful. Some of those projects, I have completely failed. Other projects have succeeded without my presence. Despite all of that, I've been able to fight my way back from scratch and I'm still kicking right now. Sometimes starting over really is the best thing for all parties, especially in a tournament whose name should be screaming of prestige.
>>TBG
I am pretty sure this is your first tourney?
If so, its very understandable that there were many mistakes made. This tourney, compared to many others, is a rather major and competitive one. Therefore there are going to be a lot more criticism going around. I dont want you to feel down because of these mistakes, but rather take it and improve it in the future run.
If there is a re-made tourney, I think the staff team of now should be a part of the staff team, mostly to learn and practice with the experienced. I dont think it would be too bad of at thing. Almost no one in this tournament are bad people, actually most of them are rather kind compared to the rest of the community. We are not trying to completely dis you and discourage you, but trying to help the best we can. A lot of us liked the whole state against state concept, and coming up with that itself is an accomplishment in my opinion.
Reconsidering is not a bad idea, but it is up to you in the end.If everyone leaves this tourney i get to win!!!
Anyway I know you are probably the most stressed out of all of us, but do your best.
I am pretty sure this is your first tourney?
If so, its very understandable that there were many mistakes made. This tourney, compared to many others, is a rather major and competitive one. Therefore there are going to be a lot more criticism going around. I dont want you to feel down because of these mistakes, but rather take it and improve it in the future run.
If there is a re-made tourney, I think the staff team of now should be a part of the staff team, mostly to learn and practice with the experienced. I dont think it would be too bad of at thing. Almost no one in this tournament are bad people, actually most of them are rather kind compared to the rest of the community. We are not trying to completely dis you and discourage you, but trying to help the best we can. A lot of us liked the whole state against state concept, and coming up with that itself is an accomplishment in my opinion.
Reconsidering is not a bad idea, but it is up to you in the end.
Anyway I know you are probably the most stressed out of all of us, but do your best.
Topic Starter
0120 wrote:
>>TBG
I am pretty sure this is your first tourney?
If so, its very understandable that there were many mistakes made. This tourney, compared to many others, is a rather major and competitive one. Therefore there are going to be a lot more criticism going around. I dont want you to feel down because of these mistakes, but rather take it and improve it in the future run.
If there is a re-made tourney, I think the staff team of now should be a part of the staff team, mostly to learn and practice with the experienced. I dont think it would be too bad of at thing. Almost no one in this tournament are bad people, actually most of them are rather kind compared to the rest of the community. We are not trying to completely dis you and discourage you, but trying to help the best we can. A lot of us liked the whole state against state concept, and coming up with that itself is an accomplishment in my opinion.
Reconsidering is not a bad idea, but it is up to you in the end.If everyone leaves this tourney i get to win!!!
Anyway I know you are probably the most stressed out of all of us, but do your best.
To be completely honest, this is actually my second tournament, however, the first one i made, was an absolute failure that i don't like talking about, I am still learning from my mistakes, and Trying my damned hardest to make sure this one doesn't fall to the same fate. I am taking this criticism from you guys as much as i possibly can, and using it to my advantage, and hopefully, by next year, these same mistakes wont be repeated.
If Worse comes to worst on this, and i am forced to close this tournament down, leaving someone else to reboot it, then i wish them the best of luck (though i am hoping to god that it doesn't end up coming to that).
I am very sorry if it seems i am super stressed (mainly because i am), but i only hope for the best in both this tournament, and you guys, the players.
Honestly, your biggest mistake was coming up with the idea and opening registration for it in too short of a window. I've been here long enough to see so many tournaments I have participated in completely fail because not enough time was allotted to adequately prepare for it. A big tournament like the USA cup takes at least three months to prepare for it.
map in nomod is also in freemod fyi
Topic Starter
Fixed, sorry about thatApraxia wrote:
map in nomod is also in freemod fyi
Will round 1 of losers bracket be doing round 1 mappool?
Topic Starter
Pituophis wrote:
Will round 1 of losers bracket be doing round 1 mappool?
TheBronyGames wrote:
The Week 3 mappool (once it gets released) will be usedsamotoda wrote:
Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
The maps this week should have been slightly harder (maybe around 5.2-5.5 with FEW slider heavy maps). Some of the maps chosen in the first week could have very well been in semifinals.Sorry but i was fairly alone to make it while i got informed about "hey we need new mappool" 1 damn hour before release. You have full right to judge and curse me here but take into consideration that i didn't had any time to properly test all maps, make rotations and ask high ranked friend to test them and give opinion. That's from my end. No excuses whatsoever. As following your advice we have planned to test it by high ranked players and take opinions to create something realy quality, enjoyable and challenging but there was completly no time.
TBG already have tons of negative feedback and things to work on, i already told him to inform us about new mappools way earlier. Simple reason - we had in mind that for round 2 will be used same mappool, nodoby expected this change from us.
The second No Mod map links to the same one right below it.
Everyone's already mentioned their own gripes about various problems, but my main issue is that if any major changes happen, such as with the entire mappool or the schedule, at the very least send a PM to the captains so that each of them can inform their own teams and not be left in the dark later on.
Everyone's already mentioned their own gripes about various problems, but my main issue is that if any major changes happen, such as with the entire mappool or the schedule, at the very least send a PM to the captains so that each of them can inform their own teams and not be left in the dark later on.
Yeah, on behalf of the mappool creation group, I'd like to apologize for the lack of organization and the hastily-thrown-together mappool.
I'm not trying to make excuses and shift blame off ourselves. There's been failure at many levels in our organization and co-ordination. What's happened is very regrettable, and all I wish to do is explain why we've failed. I don't want forgiveness, or for any of you to say "Oh well, it'll be better next time", or even to claim "It's not my fault", just to explain >why< we've failed and >what< we've done wrong. These shortcomings we're entirely at fault for, and, in case anyone else is thinking of making their own tourney, how to avoid them. For the sake of constructive criticism, and in the hope to improve our ability for the future, even if this does fall apart, or as a resource for others to refer to.
In truth, the mappool team had also expected the week 1 mappool to persist. Our communication has been sorely lacking throughout this entire tourney, so far. There's been basically no communication at all between any of the staff. I could pin all the blame of this onto TBG, but in truth, every member of staff is partially responsible for this. I should have kept closer tabs on the tourney, realized that TBG was being overwhelmed, and taken the mappool team more into my own hands, so he had something less to divide his attention on.
My advice is that, if you're a tourney staff, remember to bring something up with the founder if you're concerned, and be ready to take charge if they need you to.
One of our more controversial picks was Algebra. When I proposed we use Algebra in the first week's mappool, I was completely unaware that we were using score V2. If I had have known that, I would not have picked Algebra for sure. I'm not going to shift blame off myself: I should have asked what score format we were using before making map picks. What's more, I shouldn't even have proposed a map where my choice to include would have been influenced so heavily by something minor like that. Picking Algebra was done partially because of my own love for technical maps, and partially to appeal to participants as having a unique mappool, but it was picked far too early in the tourney. I should have saved it for semifinals, or even the finals. That much is clear for sure. For that, I apologize to everyone who has had to suffer through the map.
More than half of mappool creation staff were absent during the first pool's creation. We have 8 people in our mappools chat. Only 3 ended up participating in actual map picking. Several members got caught up in real life business, there were a few suggestions of blatantly unsuitable maps in an attempt to be funny because memes, and unforseen circumstances caused TBG to be far too distracted to help with selection, leaving us with no leadership. We then agreed to reconvene in an hour and that was when the real map-picking took place.
I think there were a few problems here- Firstly, we had way too large of a group. 8 people is far too many opinions to reasonably sort through, and far too many people to organize. With 3 people, it went very smoothly. I could recommend a group of 3-4 people.
Secondly, I'd like to commend Taiga, as he took leadership as soon as TBG had to leave, made the call to reconvene in an hour and generally got the 3 of us organized and we had a very smooth time picking maps. If the situation had not been so hectic prior, we might have been in better form, and would have caught out our blatantly unsuitable picks, such as Algebra and Omega Rhythm. Still, this is entirely our own fault. We should have come better organized, and I apologize again to all participants by any frustration caused by our less-suitable picks. At the very least, I can recommend you have a strong leader who can take control quickly and assert authority who also knows how to organize people quickly and efficiently, and that did serious damage control and resulted in us ending up with a mappool that, while unbalanced, seems to still have pleased quite a few people.
A recurring complaint has been our usage of long maps: In our creation process, we had decided that length was no big factor, and decided to make map picks based exclusively on suitability and quality. This turned out to be a mistake. I myself am a large fan of longer maps, and am responsible for quite a few of the long picks. For that, I'm sorry again, I done fucked up. This is purely the fault of my narrow field of enjoyment for maps and presence during map selection. There's no reason I couldn't have made brevity a factor alongside suitability and quality: We have no shortage of maps to choose from. This is pretty much exclusively my fault and not that of anyone else on the team, because I made this call. My advice for anyone setting up their own tourney is to have a group of people with very diverse taste in maps, who aren't afraid to challenge others' proposals.
Another common complaint has been the ease of HR and DT maps compared to the rest of the mappool. This is, again, entirely our own fault. We have literally nobody on our selection team experienced in HR or DT. We should have found people who were experienced in these mods to help us choose what maps to put forward. As before, my advice is to have people diverse in map taste, and playstyles, so that you have people who are experienced enough to actually choose the maps to be played. We ended up being overly cautious and making them easier than the rest of the mappool.
Yet another complaint was the difficulty of the mappool- Recommended rank to join is sub 5k, but our spreadsheets showed us the largest concentration of players were 2k and below. We decided to base our map choices off of that instead of 5k. This was a mistake. We should have stuck to our word, chosen maps of a lower difficulty, and generally been more considerate to a difficulty curve all around. This would have most likely made everyone happier, while not affecting the quality of the mappool, since we could have just moved our initial picks up a round or two.
And, as an aside note, I'll have to thank Taiga for being the only reason we have a second mappool at all. Taiga made the second mappool completely by himself within an hour's notice, when even I said "Fuck that, I'm not helping with an hour's notice."
We're sorry you're all unsatisfied with the second mappool, and we're working to correct that already.
Thanks for reading what I have to say. If any of you have more complaints I haven't addressed, feel free to bring them up and I'll be sure to reply.
I'd like to extend a big thanks for all those who have given their very constructive criticism. You've all been very helpful in bringing me to understand what we've done wrong, and I feel this has been a great learning experience, for myself at least. I really appreciate your in-depth yet clear and easy to understand responses. It's not often I get the opportunity to learn so much from my mistakes.
I know there are far more complaints in terms of map schedules, notifications, match organization and so on, and I wish I could comment on those, but I promise, I'll hound TBG to respond to all of your complaints.
Thanks all for your continued attention towards this tournament, and to those who are helping to improve it.
I'm not trying to make excuses and shift blame off ourselves. There's been failure at many levels in our organization and co-ordination. What's happened is very regrettable, and all I wish to do is explain why we've failed. I don't want forgiveness, or for any of you to say "Oh well, it'll be better next time", or even to claim "It's not my fault", just to explain >why< we've failed and >what< we've done wrong. These shortcomings we're entirely at fault for, and, in case anyone else is thinking of making their own tourney, how to avoid them. For the sake of constructive criticism, and in the hope to improve our ability for the future, even if this does fall apart, or as a resource for others to refer to.
In truth, the mappool team had also expected the week 1 mappool to persist. Our communication has been sorely lacking throughout this entire tourney, so far. There's been basically no communication at all between any of the staff. I could pin all the blame of this onto TBG, but in truth, every member of staff is partially responsible for this. I should have kept closer tabs on the tourney, realized that TBG was being overwhelmed, and taken the mappool team more into my own hands, so he had something less to divide his attention on.
My advice is that, if you're a tourney staff, remember to bring something up with the founder if you're concerned, and be ready to take charge if they need you to.
One of our more controversial picks was Algebra. When I proposed we use Algebra in the first week's mappool, I was completely unaware that we were using score V2. If I had have known that, I would not have picked Algebra for sure. I'm not going to shift blame off myself: I should have asked what score format we were using before making map picks. What's more, I shouldn't even have proposed a map where my choice to include would have been influenced so heavily by something minor like that. Picking Algebra was done partially because of my own love for technical maps, and partially to appeal to participants as having a unique mappool, but it was picked far too early in the tourney. I should have saved it for semifinals, or even the finals. That much is clear for sure. For that, I apologize to everyone who has had to suffer through the map.
More than half of mappool creation staff were absent during the first pool's creation. We have 8 people in our mappools chat. Only 3 ended up participating in actual map picking. Several members got caught up in real life business, there were a few suggestions of blatantly unsuitable maps in an attempt to be funny because memes, and unforseen circumstances caused TBG to be far too distracted to help with selection, leaving us with no leadership. We then agreed to reconvene in an hour and that was when the real map-picking took place.
I think there were a few problems here- Firstly, we had way too large of a group. 8 people is far too many opinions to reasonably sort through, and far too many people to organize. With 3 people, it went very smoothly. I could recommend a group of 3-4 people.
Secondly, I'd like to commend Taiga, as he took leadership as soon as TBG had to leave, made the call to reconvene in an hour and generally got the 3 of us organized and we had a very smooth time picking maps. If the situation had not been so hectic prior, we might have been in better form, and would have caught out our blatantly unsuitable picks, such as Algebra and Omega Rhythm. Still, this is entirely our own fault. We should have come better organized, and I apologize again to all participants by any frustration caused by our less-suitable picks. At the very least, I can recommend you have a strong leader who can take control quickly and assert authority who also knows how to organize people quickly and efficiently, and that did serious damage control and resulted in us ending up with a mappool that, while unbalanced, seems to still have pleased quite a few people.
A recurring complaint has been our usage of long maps: In our creation process, we had decided that length was no big factor, and decided to make map picks based exclusively on suitability and quality. This turned out to be a mistake. I myself am a large fan of longer maps, and am responsible for quite a few of the long picks. For that, I'm sorry again, I done fucked up. This is purely the fault of my narrow field of enjoyment for maps and presence during map selection. There's no reason I couldn't have made brevity a factor alongside suitability and quality: We have no shortage of maps to choose from. This is pretty much exclusively my fault and not that of anyone else on the team, because I made this call. My advice for anyone setting up their own tourney is to have a group of people with very diverse taste in maps, who aren't afraid to challenge others' proposals.
Another common complaint has been the ease of HR and DT maps compared to the rest of the mappool. This is, again, entirely our own fault. We have literally nobody on our selection team experienced in HR or DT. We should have found people who were experienced in these mods to help us choose what maps to put forward. As before, my advice is to have people diverse in map taste, and playstyles, so that you have people who are experienced enough to actually choose the maps to be played. We ended up being overly cautious and making them easier than the rest of the mappool.
Yet another complaint was the difficulty of the mappool- Recommended rank to join is sub 5k, but our spreadsheets showed us the largest concentration of players were 2k and below. We decided to base our map choices off of that instead of 5k. This was a mistake. We should have stuck to our word, chosen maps of a lower difficulty, and generally been more considerate to a difficulty curve all around. This would have most likely made everyone happier, while not affecting the quality of the mappool, since we could have just moved our initial picks up a round or two.
And, as an aside note, I'll have to thank Taiga for being the only reason we have a second mappool at all. Taiga made the second mappool completely by himself within an hour's notice, when even I said "Fuck that, I'm not helping with an hour's notice."
We're sorry you're all unsatisfied with the second mappool, and we're working to correct that already.
Thanks for reading what I have to say. If any of you have more complaints I haven't addressed, feel free to bring them up and I'll be sure to reply.
I'd like to extend a big thanks for all those who have given their very constructive criticism. You've all been very helpful in bringing me to understand what we've done wrong, and I feel this has been a great learning experience, for myself at least. I really appreciate your in-depth yet clear and easy to understand responses. It's not often I get the opportunity to learn so much from my mistakes.
I know there are far more complaints in terms of map schedules, notifications, match organization and so on, and I wish I could comment on those, but I promise, I'll hound TBG to respond to all of your complaints.
Thanks all for your continued attention towards this tournament, and to those who are helping to improve it.
Does nobody find it strange that the losers of week 1 technically have a free pass to week 3? Why do the losers play week 3 MP instead of week 1 or 2? Losing shouldn't be the ideal strategy to advance for free.
Topic Starter
Thing is, i feel it'd be unfair, as using week 1 mappools would give Loser's bracket players from Winner's Round 1 an advantage as they'd have more time practicing it's mappool, as i'm sure, no one is banking on losing their Winner's Round 2 match, and if i were to put them in this week, i'd have very little time to schedule matches, allowing little time to reschedule, if neededIgnite wrote:
Does nobody find it strange that the losers of week 1 technically have a free pass to week 3? Why do the losers play week 3 MP instead of week 1 or 2? Losing shouldn't be the ideal strategy to advance for free.
If there was enough teams for Challonge to put them ALL in round 1 Winner's when it was that time, then it'd be a different story
Topic Starter
Round two match times have been released! If you dont see it at first, be sure to check the tabs at the bottom-right hand of the page
how the fck did missouri win against new york holy
BS schedule changes that resulted in a 1v1 since no one else could make it for NYBroccoly wrote:
how the fck did missouri win against new york holy
I'd like to inform you all that I've left tournament staff due to my own frustration & dissatisfaction with how it is being run.
Best of luck to all participants and staff.
Best of luck to all participants and staff.
.....
You're running this tournament into a 6 foot grave. :/
You can't even call it a real competition if teams lost because of a dramatic schedule change that was entirely your fault.
You can't even call it a real competition if teams lost because of a dramatic schedule change that was entirely your fault.
Topic Starter
My Fault?Napkins wrote:
You're running this tournament into a 6 foot grave. :/
You can't even call it a real competition if teams lost because of a dramatic schedule change that was entirely your fault.
Yes, it is CLEARLY MY Fault that a team's captain was too impatient to wait for me to get back online after only contacting me twice while i happened to be afk, and for all of the players' individual schedules that I CLEARLY know about. I apologize for doing this to you guys. [/Sarcasm]
I realize that My attempted contact with captains for their match time changes weren't put out properly, and i wholeheartedly apologize, but what's done is done, and the only reschedule this week was acknowledged by all effected team captains.
That aside, I will come out and say this, while i will try to ensure that it doesn't happen, if these upcoming rounds don't go well, i think i might as well just cancel this whole thing, sorry in advance, if it has to come to that. and Sorry that I even remotely had to make a decision like this.
Topic Starter
I'm canceling this whole thing, i'm sorry to say that.
This whole project has been one disaster after another, bad mappools, bad scheduling, angry players, quiet commentators, Staff going AWOL, it's an absolute nightmare. And i'll i'm getting is more-and-more stress from all of this.
I really hope that this can be pulled off properly in the future, but until then, i can't keep this thing going at this rate
I'm really sorry to all of the players and staff. I will get a GMT to lock the thread as soon as i can
This whole project has been one disaster after another, bad mappools, bad scheduling, angry players, quiet commentators, Staff going AWOL, it's an absolute nightmare. And i'll i'm getting is more-and-more stress from all of this.
I really hope that this can be pulled off properly in the future, but until then, i can't keep this thing going at this rate
I'm really sorry to all of the players and staff. I will get a GMT to lock the thread as soon as i can
Locked on request.
You can always ask myself or another GMT to unlock if you want to continue it one day.
You can always ask myself or another GMT to unlock if you want to continue it one day.