The sad part of all this is that those should all be dealt with by BNs being more careful about what gets nominated. Of course, the other issue is that when someone else points out problems with those things, it's up to the mapper to make changes and fix their map.
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Things you'd like to see most in ranked mania maps? (poll)
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Total Posts
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Things (or changes) you'd like to see most in ranked mania maps
Total votes: 688
Cuppp wrote:
Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
But we still have problem, if we remove this ranking criteria, it would have to affect other gamemode as well.Elementaires wrote:
Cuppp wrote:
Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
And isn't doesn't it requires 2 diff?
is anything going to change after this discussion
Maybe.Evening wrote:
is anything going to change after this discussion
Just maybe.
Or maybe not.
why people thinks ENHI rules should be removed anyway, osu! is not arcade game where 1 song can only have 1 diff (marathon are exception)..
people try to learn to basic with appropriate diff spread on each beatmap, removing this rule is simply nonsense..
people try to learn to basic with appropriate diff spread on each beatmap, removing this rule is simply nonsense..
what a shame ~Rilene wrote:
Maybe.Evening wrote:
is anything going to change after this discussion
Just maybe.
Or maybe not.
amenEvening wrote:
what a shame ~
Well, to be honest, agree.ExUsagi wrote:
why people thinks ENHI rules should be removed anyway, osu! is not arcade game where 1 song can only have 1 diff (marathon are exception)..
people try to learn to basic with appropriate diff spread on each beatmap, removing this rule is simply nonsense..
This is never gonna happen and if it does it's definitely the worst idea ever.Cuppp wrote:
Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
The difficulty-spread criteria is in fact the most important cause of osu having newbie players continuously coming in. This allows players from all skill levels to enjoys the particular song getting ranked by finding the appropriate difficulty.
Imagine how sad it is if you are a new player playing rhythm game for the first time and discover that all the songs you like only have one hard as hell diff, or if you are a pro player immigrating from other game finding all kinds of easy and boring maps (This actually happens a lot and that's why I vote for ranking harder maps).
Topic Starter
This thread wasn't created with the intent to change anything tbh :/ I was interested in the opinions that the mania players have about ranked maps and what they want from ranked maps.Evening wrote:
is anything going to change after this discussion
The argument about one diff maps is dumb. And not for the reason you guys might think.
This is osu!, a game where essentially anyone can open the editor and make maps. If we allowed single diffs to be rankable, what would happen is that we would be bombarded by hundreds of single difficulties ranging from the easiest all the way up to the hardest. The majority of mania players and mappers are unable to play or map ET level stuff, period. And that is why we will not suddenly be flooded by entirely Insane/ET level maps if we remove that rule. In fact, I'd say we'd have far more easy difficulties than hard ones. The real difference with the easy difficulties is that they would be relatively low quality compared to the harder difficulties, because most mappers capable of making hard diffs will stop making easier ones and allow the new mappers to cover that region of difficulty.
On top of that, osu! doesn't restrict you from mapping the same song someone else mapped. Find a song with only an Insane difficulty for it? Make an easier difficulty. Without requiring multiple difficulties per map it would be easy to fill difficulty gaps by mapping your own diff.
The strongest argument for keeping multiple diffs as a requirement in mapsets is for consistency in the ranked maps, and consistency within mapsets.
This is osu!, a game where essentially anyone can open the editor and make maps. If we allowed single diffs to be rankable, what would happen is that we would be bombarded by hundreds of single difficulties ranging from the easiest all the way up to the hardest. The majority of mania players and mappers are unable to play or map ET level stuff, period. And that is why we will not suddenly be flooded by entirely Insane/ET level maps if we remove that rule. In fact, I'd say we'd have far more easy difficulties than hard ones. The real difference with the easy difficulties is that they would be relatively low quality compared to the harder difficulties, because most mappers capable of making hard diffs will stop making easier ones and allow the new mappers to cover that region of difficulty.
On top of that, osu! doesn't restrict you from mapping the same song someone else mapped. Find a song with only an Insane difficulty for it? Make an easier difficulty. Without requiring multiple difficulties per map it would be easy to fill difficulty gaps by mapping your own diff.
The strongest argument for keeping multiple diffs as a requirement in mapsets is for consistency in the ranked maps, and consistency within mapsets.
In my opinion, going for GD is the best thing that you can do in this case. Keeping the rule for the good point of the consistency with the mapset, giving the oportunity to new mappers and of course, more focus on that dif because that will be the only dif that the guest mapper is doing. Dunno, might be just me.Bobbias wrote:
The argument about one diff maps is dumb. And not for the reason you guys might think.
This is osu!, a game where essentially anyone can open the editor and make maps. If we allowed single diffs to be rankable, what would happen is that we would be bombarded by hundreds of single difficulties ranging from the easiest all the way up to the hardest. The majority of mania players and mappers are unable to play or map ET level stuff, period. And that is why we will not suddenly be flooded by entirely Insane/ET level maps if we remove that rule. In fact, I'd say we'd have far more easy difficulties than hard ones. The real difference with the easy difficulties is that they would be relatively low quality compared to the harder difficulties, because most mappers capable of making hard diffs will stop making easier ones and allow the new mappers to cover that region of difficulty.
On top of that, osu! doesn't restrict you from mapping the same song someone else mapped. Find a song with only an Insane difficulty for it? Make an easier difficulty. Without requiring multiple difficulties per map it would be easy to fill difficulty gaps by mapping your own diff.
The strongest argument for keeping multiple diffs as a requirement in mapsets is for consistency in the ranked maps, and consistency within mapsets.
It will also speed up the ranking, 2 persons asking for mods > Only 1.
juankristal wrote:
In my opinion, going for GD is the best thing that you can do in this case. Keeping the rule for the good point of the consistency with the mapset, giving the oportunity to new mappers and of course, more focus on that dif because that will be the only dif that the guest mapper is doing. Dunno, might be just me.
It will also speed up the ranking, 2 persons asking for mods > Only 1.
Honestly, we have /some/ easier difficulties now, there are plenty of ranked and unranked stuff to go around for beginners to get used to the game on keymodes from 4K to 8K (especially 4K, and then 7K). Restricting people to NEEDing to cater for EVERY player for EVERY mapping they make is discouraging and causing many experienced mappers to not rank charts they do want to rank. Maybe noobies seeing all of 5+ star charts will clue them into the fact that anything below 4 stars is considered VERY easy in the world of VSRG, which could contribute to improving the culture of the game-mode. Consistency within a mapset doesn't really exist? Each difficulty is different from the others, that's the point of having them. The reason they are there is for new players to play them. Let's realize that there is nothing actually preventing a player from playing an insane difficulty beside the fact that they haven't played the game enough to be able to play it. In this sense, this ranking criteria is Pandering to new and inexperienced players. Guest Difficulties should not cause issue in this sense in terms of 'mapset consistency', which is a highly subjective criterion that is in need of both detailed definition and concise clarification of rankable and unrankable types of charts.
GD are infact a good way to introduce mappers to the mapping scene, but the GD in my opinion should be able to map any difficulty along with whatever difficulty the set's main mapper mapped. If pandering to those that 'can't play the ridiculous hard charts and are being unfairly excluded' then why not require a beginner or a normal difficulty, and nothing else?
'It will also speed up the ranking, 2 persons asking for mods > Only 1'
This is nearly laughable in the sense that the more mappers involved in a mapset, the larger number of sittings there are required to respond to mods for differing individuals and the number of interactions and communications between these individuals increases dramatically.
SPOILERAnyways, since this will never change, I'll just say that this decision has been, is currently, and will forever cause quality, talented, (and most importantly, experienced) mappers to be discouraged from trying to rank osu!mania charts, further promoting disunity in the osu!mania gamemode (and likely detracting from general revenue from supporter purchases and otherwise).
Sorry for posting personal opinions. Feel free to moderate them out or just remove my post entirely if I don't do it myself.
I'm glad at least someone else gets my point, although I still think your downplaying just how many easier difficulties we have. I should also point out that autoconverts provide literally thousands of easy diffs for newcomers to practice on before moving on to real mania maps. As much as I'm against them being ranked, I certainly see the value they add to the game mode in terms of beginner material.
I admitted that the consistency thing was at least a valid argument, but even that I feel is a weak one. Like tristan said, consistency is poorly defined. Heck, it's honestly not even present in many mapsets with a single creator, either. And personally, while I think it can be interesting to see a mapset where each difficulty feels consistent with the others, sometimes it's not possible, and it shouldn't be forced in any way either.
Allowing single diffs to be ranked would also allow new mappers to get their maps ranked faster, since a new mapper currently still needs to make 2 rankable diffs as a bare minimum. Unless they already have a fair bit of skill at the game, new mappers will generally focus on easy or normal level diffs since that's often where their skill range lies.
I admitted that the consistency thing was at least a valid argument, but even that I feel is a weak one. Like tristan said, consistency is poorly defined. Heck, it's honestly not even present in many mapsets with a single creator, either. And personally, while I think it can be interesting to see a mapset where each difficulty feels consistent with the others, sometimes it's not possible, and it shouldn't be forced in any way either.
Allowing single diffs to be ranked would also allow new mappers to get their maps ranked faster, since a new mapper currently still needs to make 2 rankable diffs as a bare minimum. Unless they already have a fair bit of skill at the game, new mappers will generally focus on easy or normal level diffs since that's often where their skill range lies.
Never encourage the autoconverts. It's a trap in every way shape and form and Bobbias I know you know that. Standard mappers will only play those charts because they want to 'play the songs they know and love' which is often grotesque weeaboo songs and then get accustomed to playing autoconverts (and their patterns) (and mainly the 4K key-mode) and everything else.
You know what I want to see in mania?
An appropriately constructed method of introducing standard players to the mania mode (and VSRG).
Not 'download the mania songs'. Not 'get used to the mode by playing autoconverts'. Not https://osu.ppy.sh/s/77753
Give them something along the lines of the O2Jam intro chart, or an explanation of the VSRG genre or SOMETHING that can get curious osu! fans formally introduced to the mania game-mode.
This will help more than any individual trying to shape mania for the better will in the foreseeable future.
/rant end
You know what I want to see in mania?
An appropriately constructed method of introducing standard players to the mania mode (and VSRG).
Not 'download the mania songs'. Not 'get used to the mode by playing autoconverts'. Not https://osu.ppy.sh/s/77753
Give them something along the lines of the O2Jam intro chart, or an explanation of the VSRG genre or SOMETHING that can get curious osu! fans formally introduced to the mania game-mode.
This will help more than any individual trying to shape mania for the better will in the foreseeable future.
/rant end
For all of you guys, its not like I dont understand your points. Most of them are cool things but you cant just asume that something that is "lower than 5* is easy. Its considered easy for those who are top players and blabla, just as any other gamemode here in osu! You cant just get in the game, just play 5* stuff until you make it and get better. There is a learning curve like any other game and thats why a spread is really needed in my opinion.
You can go to Taiko for example and you always see spreads with Kantan-Futsuu-Muzu-Oni, etc and not only Inner Oni stuff, even when taiko players consider stuff 4* or low REALLY easy and I can tell you that because I did host a Taiko tourney and even with that they keep doing cool charts and cool stuff. New players have the right to play any ranked map as pro players also have.
Like I said, any "good and experienced" mapper can map and rank stuff, they dont have to go for a full set, they can just do one insane diff and ask someone else for easier ones, I dont see why there are problems on that.
Tristan, you are suggesting to give new players (or STD players) some kind of guideline, explanation of this genre you can go for it and make a thread teaching them!
And also Tristan, we are just disscusing here, anyone has their own opinion and the one that you are throwing here is acceptable, you dont have to say sorry about it tho.
EDIT: To end with this, if experienced and good mappers do care of osu!mania and their quality status or whatever, then they should try to change their mind, get used to the rules and adapt. If not well, its a shame...
You can go to Taiko for example and you always see spreads with Kantan-Futsuu-Muzu-Oni, etc and not only Inner Oni stuff, even when taiko players consider stuff 4* or low REALLY easy and I can tell you that because I did host a Taiko tourney and even with that they keep doing cool charts and cool stuff. New players have the right to play any ranked map as pro players also have.
Like I said, any "good and experienced" mapper can map and rank stuff, they dont have to go for a full set, they can just do one insane diff and ask someone else for easier ones, I dont see why there are problems on that.
Tristan, you are suggesting to give new players (or STD players) some kind of guideline, explanation of this genre you can go for it and make a thread teaching them!
And also Tristan, we are just disscusing here, anyone has their own opinion and the one that you are throwing here is acceptable, you dont have to say sorry about it tho.
EDIT: To end with this, if experienced and good mappers do care of osu!mania and their quality status or whatever, then they should try to change their mind, get used to the rules and adapt. If not well, its a shame...
Basically, good mappers are too lazy to arbitrarily make easier maps
lol
lol
NoBilliumMoto wrote:
Basically, good mappers are too lazy to arbitrarily make easier maps
In most cases yes.Tidek wrote:
NoBilliumMoto wrote:
Basically, good mappers are too lazy to arbitrarily make easier maps
by asking the other GD to map easier diff.. sdvx bandwagon set c:
Tbh, easy diffs is hell lot easier and faster to map compared to hard diffs.
It can took less than a hour to map 2-min 2* map while 7* could took hours.
It can took less than a hour to map 2-min 2* map while 7* could took hours.
Autoconverts are fine for the first day or week or whatever it takes for a new player to internalize exactly how to hit the right key when they see a single note falling down the screen. For that level of skill, they're useful. They also let those players learn by playing whatever terrible weeaboo music they like, instead of having to actually look through mania maps for an easy enough diff. That's the only purpose for which I promote autoconverts. The issue of course is that people rarely understand when it's time to move past autoconverts to proper mania maps.Tristan97 wrote:
Never encourage the autoconverts. It's a trap in every way shape and form and Bobbias I know you know that.
I've said it many times before, but autoconverts should NEVER have been considered 'ranked', even when there were no ranked mania maps to begin with. It's done more harm than good to mania.
Suppose I decide I want to map a jazz song, and spend tens of hours timing and mapping a brilliant insane/ET level diff, but can't seem to find inspiration for easier diffs. Do you think I'd be able to get enough people to make easier GDs to rank something like that? Suggesting that you can just get GDs to fill your set ignores the issue that unless your song choice is popular in the mania community, it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to find anyone.
Faster? Yes. Easy? Not really, if you're after a quality diff.Rilene wrote:
Tbh, easy diffs is hell lot easier and faster to map compared to hard diffs.
It can took less than a hour to map 2-min 2* map while 7* could took hours.
At least this applies to me. Also, I find the process of mapping non-GD easy stuff painful because I have to exercise variety between diffs and it doesn't fully express the music (undermapping).
Any key is OK
Any song is OK
Any star rating is OK
But, i just need to see more fun maps and good maps ranked :'D
that's all
Any song is OK
Any star rating is OK
But, i just need to see more fun maps and good maps ranked :'D
that's all
Well, trying to do a quality easy map will just took extra 50% time, as you check notes, which aren't that much compared to harder diffs.Lenfried- wrote:
Faster? Yes. Easy? Not really, if you're after a quality diff.
At least this applies to me. Also, I find the process of mapping non-GD easy stuff painful because I have to exercise variety between diffs and it doesn't fully express the music (undermapping).
By quality, I only mean in terms of patterning.
Less noodle shenanigans. (I'm serious.)
LN maps are already underrepresented. If you don't like LNs, don't play LN maps, it's that simple.
theres not even LN maps lmaoLoliFlan wrote:
Less noodle shenanigans. (I'm serious.)
I agree!LoliFlan wrote:
More noodle shenanigans. (I'm serious.)
ok. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130543Elementaires wrote:
theres not even LN maps lmaoLoliFlan wrote:
Less noodle shenanigans. (I'm serious.)
Okay, that's one properly hard LN map out there, there's a really low amount of those ranked anyway. Would like to see more of those and more well mapped heavy SV gimmick maps as well.
Rilene wrote:
SDVX and TV size maps is easier to rank compared to others in o!m. ;-;
hard to get BN for LN, mind help?
yeah, it's just I know that most of the BN is busy, and so people will consider for not requesting and then the map can't be ranked
Look at the BN userpage, and actually most of them is "busy/weekend/exam"
omg
except for their friends orzArcherLove wrote:
Rilene wrote:
SDVX and TV size maps is easier to rank compared to others in o!m. ;-;
hard to get BN for LN, mind help?
yeah, it's just I know that most of the BN is busy, and so people will consider for not requesting and then the map can't be ranked
Look at the BN userpage, and actually most of them is "busy/weekend/exam"
omg
make 200mb fully keysounded 5min map rankeable please
I didn't mean about BN.ArcherLove wrote:
Rilene wrote:
SDVX and TV size maps is easier to rank compared to others in o!m. ;-;
hard to get BN for LN, mind help?
yeah, it's just I know that most of the BN is busy, and so people will consider for not requesting and then the map can't be ranked
Look at the BN userpage, and actually most of them is "busy/weekend/exam"
omg
I mean it is just easier to rank those TV Size & SDVX than other type maps, not the amount of BN and their status.
There is one case where map got bubbled without mods, though... On standard map but does not matter anyway because of ranking system is the same.
Im okay with fully keysounded maps but, 200mb?! That's absurd.dudehacker wrote:
make 200mb fully keysounded 5min map rankeable please
Have you seen how big some BMS songs are? 200mb is not insane when you're talking about fully keysounded charts.
e.g. Re:Lily Clock in BOF2013 is 2.5GB unzipped. (with the .bmp images for the clock taking up the majority of the size.)Bobbias wrote:
Have you seen how big some BMS songs are? 200mb is not insane when you're talking about fully keysounded charts.
osu! needs a central directory from which to load hitsounds from to avoid duplication.JamesHappy wrote:
Im okay with fully keysounded maps but, 200mb?! That's absurd.dudehacker wrote:
make 200mb fully keysounded 5min map rankeable please
Hmmm... kinda. I want less 7k noodles and more 4k noodles. The days which had trouble with 4k noodles are gone and really want some good 4k noodle maps. So far, I'm stuck with ones all of which are unranked. hmmm topic idea.LoliFlan wrote:
Less noodle shenanigans. (I'm serious.)
Ability to rank 10 key maps, ranked 10k mod, not splitstage 10 key.
If they ever make 200mb songs rank-able I hope there's a "Low quality" or "non-keysounded" version to download too.
Don't wanna resort to swapping HDD rofl
Don't wanna resort to swapping HDD rofl
Considering there's already the no-video downloads option it wouldn't take too much more work to get a no-keysounds one working.
If you only want sm maps, surely there will be no obstacles for you to just continue playing sm.PiXL wrote:
rank sm maps stop ranking the current om meta
thanks bye
But if sm maps get ranked here then i can swing around my big 240 bpm jumpstream PP :^)Wh1teh wrote:
If you only want sm maps, surely there will be no obstacles for you to just continue playing sm.PiXL wrote:
rank sm maps stop ranking the current om meta
thanks bye
Babu24 wrote:
i want dt to be ranked
Can be charts be ranked that were 100% copied from other VSRGs like o2jam? For example if I remade all the difficulties 1:1 with the same BG and all, could it be ranked?
I'm pretty sure it works so that you need to have permission from the original creator (see IcyWorld's statement on their stepmania charts)WorldsWorst wrote:
Can be charts be ranked that were 100% copied from other VSRGs like o2jam? For example if I remade all the difficulties 1:1 with the same BG and all, could it be ranked?
No, the ranking criteria says that you need to make the most difficulties (or at least tied with) in a given mapset. Even if you're given permission to remake the difficulties, you still have to make some others to ensure that you have the most difficulties in that mapset.WorldsWorst wrote:
Can be charts be ranked that were 100% copied from other VSRGs like o2jam? For example if I remade all the difficulties 1:1 with the same BG and all, could it be ranked?
You can edit the chart and make the charts different enough to make it similar to a collab (or an entirely different chart altogether), but you're basically redoing the entire thing if you want to do something like that because you have to keep layering consistencies in check. Minor pattern changes don't count as "making the chart different enough".