Sliders are an important element in CtB. With the old HDash system it was only possible to generate HDashes at the ending of the slider, making some of them impossible to play due to the limited speed of the catcher (specially extra fast sliders). Nowadays the algorhythm of HDash creation is different, and so are those sliders which generate HDashes in some elements they have, except for little droplets. See some examples for every case:

Beginning:

1) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/492741 / 01:39:375 (1,2) -

2) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/128436 / 00:01:630 (1) -

3) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/695405 / 00:55:667 (1) - 00:59:145 (1) -

4) ?

Repetitions:

1) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737 / 00:45:257 (1,1,1) -

2) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/128436 / 00:09:987 (1) -

3) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/695405 / 01:11:319 (1) - 01:14:797 (1) -

Big droplets:

1) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/412288 / 05:25:075 (1) -

2) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/695405 / 01:09:580 (1) -

wtfiseventhis:

1) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/369107 / 01:01:821 (1) -

All those sliders are possible to catch, but the stability of the catcher is quite questionable and therefore I'd like to discuss about which cases are acceptable, and which ones not. With the results I'd like to craft a new guideline for mappers/modders to make more enjoyable maps and introduce new elements that aren't that known.

By now, the less stable sliders (either due to loss of small droplets or unstability of the catcher) are the following ones:

1. Beginning: Direction change inside the slider.
2. Repetitions: Extremely fast sliders.
3. Big droplets: (need more examples)

Other maps that contain rather borderline sliders:

1. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/409756
2. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/427249
3. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/768781
4. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/81594 (extra diff - external link: http://puu.sh/HiC)
5. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/687852
6. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/67528
7. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/790100

Please discuss!

uh, are those sliders rankable for some reason?

SUCH GREGET SLIDERS

Sliders with hyper at sliders head and sliders with hyper on big droplet should be rankable in my opinion, nowadays theres some maps with those kind of hyper-sliders, but only on autoconverts. I think hyperdashes on sliders elements should be introduce on CTB difficulties starting on Overdose (Extra) difficulties or harder.

It should looks like that

Hyperdashes might be use on extra difficulties or extra+ with caution

Then let them rankable only for overdose/deluge only diffs =w=

what about something like

Hyperdashes are allowed at the beginning of the slider or on a big droplet, on overdose+ difficulties, provided that no small droplets are missed by holding dash through such sliders.

But how about small droplets with hypers? It might rarely happen, but i'm sure it will

lidahapi wrote:

But how about small droplets with hypers? It might rarely happen, but i'm sure it will

small droplets cannot have hypers its imposiburu

I'm just wondering, just in case ;o;

But hey, they often happen at high bpm right? (maybe above or equal to 250 with 1/4 snap divisor?)

dem the skin, i can't differ the big droplet and small droplet

Yes please, I need this in my life.

oh yeah, i forgot to tell about this ;w;

here's my opinion:

speaking of which:

-Hyper at beginning: this one is acceptable, no issues as long as the droplets can be caught

-Repetitions: Should to refer to this guideline to make it acceptable: (taken from https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Catch_the_Beat_Ranking_Criteria)

Bear in mind that CtB difficulties are meant to be fun to play, not a random experimentation with the editor. Make sure your map is fun, even if it's difficult! This comes only with practice. This includes making sure you don't spam 20 hyperdashes in a row - that's not fun, that's exhausting and frustrating.

-Hyper at Big droplets: this is serious issue, this forces players to do a VERY perfect timing. Wrong timing will cause miss at random combo (unless hypers appear at each fruits at sliders)

another example for hypers at big droplets that i found (found in this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/32570, 00:00:134 (1)):



and here, my own map ;w;

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/733796 i better update this ;w;

some sort of a combination between repetition and big droplets. Like i said, it shouldn't cause serious issue if hypers appear at fruits at sliders (not forcing player to do a VERY perfect timing). inb4 skin promotion ;w;

inb4 EzGon vs ExGon

Actually, if anyone wondering about adding a HDash to a slider (any part) that slider is already questionable. It might be just divided into a circle+slider or 2 circle which is easier to handle and still follows the song.

For the beginning I see only one case where it could be used, and those are the "whoosh" sounds in electronical musics. And some others, but rarely. In those cases, a HDash on slider head may could fit just nicely, doing with care.

On big droplets, well, just divide the slider into two part please.

Small droplets? Stop using high SV please. (I doubt anyone will ever map 300+ bpm song for rank anyway.)

tr;dr I'm willing to accept the first case but the the other two shouldn't be allowed. They makes no sense and actually, they might just ruin the fun factor of the maps.

I feel hyperdashes on slider starts and big droplets should be okay if used with caution on Extra/Overdose difficulties, provided that the player is still able to keep a reasonable level of control over the catcher. I can only see this really working with straight sliders, since curves, angles, wiggles, etc. are just likely to result in frustrating droplet misses.

Regarding small droplet hdash, I really can't see any situation in which an SV and BPM high enough to create this effect would be necessary. However, if you are using settings like these and they do actually fit the music, that should be difficulty enough without making really awkward slider shapes.

I'm in agreement with Kurokami - I'm confident that dividing the slider up into smaller objects would be a much better solution in almost all cases than creating unnecessarily difficult slider movements.

hey check this map out (hope this helps for hypers on big droplets) :3

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/371188

i better change slider tick ratio to 4 ;~; and change video offset to 316ms ;~;


Therefore, i conclude:
What it should be allowed on rain:
Beginning, Repetitions (However, i must admit, i can't say hypers on big droplets allowed, unless the slider has hypers at the beginning and all droplets have hypers)

What it should be allowed on overdose: all of them (no exceptions. Sometimes, a slider has several droplets have hypers)

No, Rain must not contain any of those.

Will explain why later.

.-.

i wonder if deif had discussed about this with kurokami

I agree with jbh, Its a strange case, but hyperdashes in big seeds can fit, although well, now it's just easier to change slider + circle (I just want notable NC at the end of the sliders)

equally, how can reach that speed of the slider so that the seeds have hdash? im not saying it can not fit, but in my opinion are unnecessary

btw kurokami, please discuss them. We are waiting for changes so this case can be finalized and closed

As I said, I will tell why I think that later. I'm currently writing on my phone which is not comfortable at all. So can you just wait until then? But as I already said, those hypers are rarely fit and using two circle might just be easier.

Okay, let me tell my reasons and explanations.

Beginning:

Using Deif's images, the first two and the third could be used with care. Whilst the first two could be caught fairly easily the third one is a bit challenging if the shape is bad, this needs extra care. I already said, I could accept this kind of hypers since they plays fine and actually might make sense.

Repetition/big droplet:

I'm putting these together as they are almost the same. Before telling my reasons here we need to look at the usage of the hypers first. We all using them to highlight one specific spot from the music which can be anything, strong beat, sudden instrument, high pitched sound, etc. Almost all mapper out there follows this "rule" during their mapping. The question is, if the beat is strong enough for a Hyper then why it needs to be mapped as a tick or repetition? Seriously, just get rid of that slider and find something else as a timeline which fit more and plays better.

There is one possible usage for the hypers on repetitions, when the beats are equally strong and you just feel like jumping. If the beats are at equal distance in time then a repeat slider could be used instead of 4-5-6.... circle. This could bring some diversity to the map while we can avoid repeating the same patterns over and over. But this kind of stuff must not keep on going for seconds. If we ever agree here, a rule must be added. But this is a really rare case.

Now answering why this shouldn't appear on Rain yet. They are just simply too much for that level. These bring too much stress on that level although we already have a kinda nice spread for E-I. The question is, should we allow this on Overdose or bring the other difficulty name "deluge" into the light? Under this I mean, Overdose should be just the normal extra difficulty and Deluge with these will be the harder, more challenging one? These Hypers could really bring some huge difference between Rain and the currently normal Overdose which is why I'm wondering here.

Okay, my sentences are hardly makes any sense, yeah, I'm tired. Anyway, the stuff at my last point are the ones which should be discussed further.

Yeah yeah, fair enough

Let's say that your explanation is temporarily explains. I'm waiting for the final decision as i wait for guideline changes (and as deif finalizes this)

I feel we all agree that hyperdash on droplets is senseless, whilst there's an argument that using it on slider repetitions is okay if used sparingly, and on slider ticks when the slider path is considered simple, e.g. if you had a "whoosh" sound that you wanted to map with a long, high SV slider with simple path. Both of these scenarios should only be considered on Overdose and above difficulties. Therefore I propose something like this:


Does this encompass what we're trying to say in not-totally-ambiguous way?

Hyper dashes on sliders, are very gimmicky and kind of weird to catch, it almost feels like your being slingshoted in a way, a good example is big black HR 600, the slider even if you hit the hyper perfectly it feels slingshoted and kind of random but if they could be incorporated well I think this would work pretty cool and well.

zSkill wrote:

Hyper dashes on sliders, are very gimmicky and kind of weird to catch, it almost feels like your being slingshoted in a way, a good example is big black HR 600, the slider even if you hit the hyper perfectly it feels slingshoted and kind of random but if they could be incorporated well I think this would work pretty cool and well.

this is worst example lol, the hyper is kinda buged and unnecessary there

With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.