I am just wondering when will the BN applications be opened again
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BN Cleaning: Ending the Standstill.
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I'm not saying it will be eventually 1 a day, but what i'm pointing out is that if the system suffers, the people in it suffers as well. DQs are not avoidable 100% but it can be reduced depending on the methods needed to do so. If the DQ : Qualified ratio isn't extreme like it is now, then maybe the limits could be better and less restricting vs. a high DQ raito that requires much less bubbles and qualifying going on.Yauxo wrote:
So that we'll eventually reach 1 qualify/day? There will always be disqualifications, no matter what you do - There will always be something that the BNs think is okay, but the QATs dont.
I would be more interested in how many users would be BNs when the system were fully automated. Right now, we have 78 76 BNs.
I still don't get why they have to be BNs based on some numbers, why they can't join or retire as they like. Problem of this is that modder who don't want to be BNs are forced to be one and are attracting automatically more intention due to the banner and the yellow bar. The only choice you give them is to stop modding. I also got asked to mod someone's map few times, as a non-modder/mapper, no idea how often a BN gets asked. Yeah, many BNs in the past cried when they lost their beloved redname, their reward, their status, but those wanted to be BNs, they wanted to be something special, being noticed as someone who can bubble/rank a map.
I personally would prefer an invitation rather than a "Good job, you are now a BN. You don't want to be one? Stop modding or you will never be removed, forever." Maybe I am just exaggerating.
I still don't get why they have to be BNs based on some numbers, why they can't join or retire as they like. Problem of this is that modder who don't want to be BNs are forced to be one and are attracting automatically more intention due to the banner and the yellow bar. The only choice you give them is to stop modding. I also got asked to mod someone's map few times, as a non-modder/mapper, no idea how often a BN gets asked. Yeah, many BNs in the past cried when they lost their beloved redname, their reward, their status, but those wanted to be BNs, they wanted to be something special, being noticed as someone who can bubble/rank a map.
I personally would prefer an invitation rather than a "Good job, you are now a BN. You don't want to be one? Stop modding or you will never be removed, forever." Maybe I am just exaggerating.
DQs should not be avoided.
they are GOOD.
fuck
they are GOOD.
fuck
stop hypothesising and watch and wait. rome wasn't wanged in a day.
Better spending time to make things safe and well, than rushing and get surprised later.whymeman wrote:
DQs are not avoidable 100% but it can be reduced depending on the methods needed to do so.
There are 3 pages of bubbled maps, good luck.
I don't see the connection, so you're gonna have to spell it out for me. BNG membership is nothing like eating a spoiled apple. It affects you minimally.Yauxo wrote:
crapImagine you're shopping and see that sweet looking apple, almost as if it's special. You like apples, so you buy one and go home. You put the special apple down to your other apples and dont eat it for a few days, it spoils and stinks around the other ones. You want to throw it away, but you cant. You've already paid money for that - You have to eat it, no matter what.xxdeathx wrote:
Honestly I don't get why it's a big deal to some people that they can't ask to be removed. As others have said, if you don't want to do it, just don't do it. Don't mod if you don't want to. If you want to be able to mod on your own accord, don't give icons then. Too simple.
Oh, but you really really dont want to eat that spoiled apple? Well, too bad, I dont care. You'll eat it.
If you play around a bit, you can translate that into getting into the BNG, changing the BN ranking and qualifiying system and trying to get out.
Yes, DQs are good to fix an existing pre-approval problem before it is left as a permanent mark that is hard to remove. It is also good when the problems are caught early. But the problem was the excess amounts back to back that made it seem like a curse to many mappers. Especially for the "legit reasons" that seemed far-fetched with little explanation and commutation between the mapper ones that actually did the DQ. On top of that, when the DQs were happening, some maps seemed as if they were left to die, or those that contribute to the map end up dropping out feeling it was their fault for the DQ as if they are powerless and have no where to turn on how to handle the matter.peppy wrote:
DQs should not be avoided.
they are GOOD.
fuck
As much as DQ is a "good" thing in terms of preventing serious errors from existing in a finished product, preventing them from happening with more time and effort into the maps before qualifying helps much more. Like, treating a map that wasn't DQed yet as if it was DQed in the aim to find serious problems before they actually cause the DQ to happen in the first place.
Its not that easy to tell people to stop guessing and wait when a lot of questions still exist though. Addressing a few questions could bring the tension down a bit and maybe give answers to more questions and things that have to be fixed. Being too aggressive about asking questions won't bring much good at this time...peppy wrote:
stop hypothesising and watch and wait. rome wasn't wanged in a day.
I have yet to see anyone ask a question that couldn't be looked up on said thread i guess no one wants to read https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Xk/pubhtml
they will be open soon we are just getting things cleaned.[ S a k u r a ] wrote:
I am just wondering when will the BN applications be opened again
ztrot wrote:
I have yet to see anyone ask a question that couldn't be looked up on said thread i guess no one wants to read https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Xk/pubhtml
Intentionally broken link....? Or do we add in the Xk/pubhtml part?
ztrot means this one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Xk/pubhtmlwhymeman wrote:
ztrot wrote:
I have yet to see anyone ask a question that couldn't be looked up on said thread i guess no one wants to read https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Xk/pubhtml
Intentionally broken link....? Or do we add in the Xk/pubhtml part?
I guess he copied the short link in the postinstead of copying the full link.
Eh. Wouldn't avoiding DQs be good? Not in a "I'll stretch the rules as far as possible before I DQ" way, but as in striving for the best quality before actually being qualified, and thus not actually needing a DQ?peppy wrote:
DQs should not be avoided.
they are GOOD.
fuck
Also, maybe this is a stupid idea and there's some dumb flaw in it, but would it be possible to create a queue system for maps to be qualified?
So, after a BN clicks the qualify button, the map is put into a queue:
- When a map is put into the queue, it's put in some position in relation to the maps age/star priority (so older maps have higher priority).
- For every day a map is in the queue, their priority increases, and they move up the list.
- BNs can check maps in the queue, and if they think a map is particularily good (or if a mapper wants another BN to check their map), they can approve of the map, which will increase the map's priority.
- The priority extra BNs checking your map gives should decrease, while the priority time gives should increase, so that a map never gets stuck in the queue, never getting out because other maps gets higher priority from BN checks.
- A DQ'd map, or a map deemed not ready from BNs, other modders or whatever, while in the queue, will have a higher priority when they go back into the queue (so if your map gets taken out of the queue at the 10th spot, you don't start all over in the queue, but gets added back in at let's say 15th or 18th or something), so this action doesn't feel as damaging as going back to the start with the current qualified system (you have to wait another 7 days if your map gets DQd on the 6th day etc)
It's kind of like the current qualified system, but it allows for more than 6 maps a day to be added to the queue, as long as we assume maps gets checked and removed from the queue by BNs and other modders. There'll still be a limit of how many maps that can be in a queue, but if there are more maps in the queue, more maps can be taken out as well. It should also be more fair this way, as it's based more on map quality and time spent. And there's still a minimum of 2 BN checks.
Ah, thanks. I do like how thoroughly detailed it is compared to the MAT/BAT ranking chart that was previously used a while back.sheela901 wrote:
ztrot means this one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Xk/pubhtml
I guess he copied the short link in the postinstead of copying the full link.
I'm personally quite surprised I'm THAT active
103 mods/icons in 3 months O.o
103 mods/icons in 3 months O.o
Damn Bara. If only the majority was as active as you are. I guess it requires a lot of dedication which not many people can afford to have due to rl.Baraatje123 wrote:
I'm personally quite surprised I'm THAT active
103 mods/icons in 3 months O.o
So soon as they will still be opened this month? If so, I feel like there would not really be fair to the new BN's since the month is half over and they have such little time to icon things since the applications are open for a week or so and then it takes roughly a week to go through the apps (so if it does take two weeks, that will be them joining on the 25th of this month, only giving them until the 30th to place icons and that seems like way to little time honestly). I just do not want them to be opened later on in the day, people apply, become a BN and they rush and place icons/rank maps in the few days they have until the month ends and just have the maps DQ out of the rush (which leads back to mappers feeling like crap because their maps got DQ'ed and also the BN's involved in the ranking process).ztrot wrote:
they will be open soon we are just getting things cleaned.[ S a k u r a ] wrote:
I am just wondering when will the BN applications be opened again
I honestly do not know if you guys are still purging the BNG a bit more or not right now or if you guys plan on removing inactive members monthly so it doesn't come to this anymore (which the new system seemed like it would do). I know I am nowhere near the most active modder on the game. Can I join this group? Yea. Have I tried? Yea. Will try to apply to become a BN when it opens up again and keep on applying if I get turned down? Yea. Will I make it this time? I have no idea because there are a lot of other people who are also excellent modders who will also apply and I might not pick my best mods to get judged.
But - in the end of the day - this is just one person's view on it. I just do not want the few people who would make it if they open up for this month to feel pressured to do what everyone else had 6 times as many days do to and do very hasty icons/qualifies. I know that some bubbles/qualifies can take days on end talking back and forth with the mapper to make sure that everything the BN feels is correct on the mapset.
If they begin applications now they'd be ahead of schedule actually. They didn't finish July BN applications until the 21st of July. Might as well just call them early August BN's xD.DragonSlayer96 wrote:
am just wondering when will the BN applications be opened again
they will be open soon we are just getting things cleaned.
So soon as they will still be opened this month? If so, I feel like there would not really be fair to the new BN's since the month is half over and they have such little time to icon things since the applications are open for a week or so and then it takes roughly a week to go through the apps (so if it does take two weeks, that will be them joining on the 25th of this month, only giving them until the 30th to place icons and that seems like way to little time honestly). I just do not want them to be opened later on in the day, people apply, become a BN and they rush and place icons/rank maps in the few days they have until the month ends and just have the maps DQ out of the rush (which leads back to mappers feeling like crap because their maps got DQ'ed and also the BN's involved in the ranking process).
Anyways, I see a lot of inactive BN's have been removed which is definitely a step in the right direction. But what about the problem about too many bubbles in pending and the ever-present qualification cap? Are you guys planning on addressing this problem of "too many active BN's"? Because right now, adding more BN's will just result in even more activity, and there are already so many maps being bubbled every day that additional BN's doesn't seem necessary or even beneficial for the system. At the same time though, we shouldn't turn a blind eye from all those modders who want to become BN's (for whatever reason) on the basis of "we don't need you".
Are there plans to increasing the QAT so that the qualification slot can return to 9 slots per day as it was a few months ago? Also, when can we be expecting the upcoming ranking/scoring system changes to be implemented? Something besides soon(tm) would be nice xD. I appreciate the solid dates we were given for the purge. I hope we can see that for other BN/ranking related dates like monthly BN Applications/system changes. Back when there was a BN ranking, the scores were updated on the 1st of every month which was quite professional.
This might not be a problem in Standard or o!m, but CtB and Taiko are looking pretty light on nomination capability right now - Taiko 4 BNs + 4 QATs, CtB 5 BNs and 3 QATs - and this doesn't take into account the fact that some people (myself included) mod another mode or modes as well. More QATs might "lighten the load" and allow the qualification limit to be raised again, but I get the feeling this probably isn't going to happen.monstrata wrote:
Anyways, I see a lot of inactive BN's have been removed which is definitely a step in the right direction. But what about the problem about too many bubbles in pending and the ever-present qualification cap? Are you guys planning on addressing this problem of "too many active BN's"? Because right now, adding more BN's will just result in even more activity, and there are already so many maps being bubbled every day that additional BN's doesn't seem necessary or even beneficial for the system. At the same time though, we shouldn't turn a blind eye from all those modders who want to become BN's (for whatever reason) on the basis of "we don't need you".
Are there plans to increasing the QAT so that the qualification slot can return to 9 slots per day as it was a few months ago? Also, when can we be expecting the upcoming ranking/scoring system changes to be implemented? Something besides soon(tm) would be nice xD. I appreciate the solid dates we were given for the purge. I hope we can see that for other BN/ranking related dates like monthly BN Applications/system changes. Back when there was a BN ranking, the scores were updated on the 1st of every month which was quite professional.
Looking forward to seeing the new ranking system implemented however - the recent google doc was the first time I've been able to gauge my performance relative to other team members since I joined 4 months ago lol.
@Cxu: It could be done in a manual way for now, like this and that. The idea itself isn't new in general, but does have a bit of a difference in regulation. Other game modes showed interest to this as well, but for now we are still testing it. This also referes to JBHyperion post: Even though it's kind of a bummer that Taiko lost some of his BNs(ctb, too), we might be able to compensate it by continuing working together in this queue.
xxdeathx wrote:
I don't see the connection, so you're gonna have to spell it out for me. BNG membership is nothing like eating a spoiled apple. It affects you minimally.
explained crap
You buy the apple/You join the BNG (you commit to something)
The apple is good, you can eat it | The overall ranking system/BN ranking is good, things work together (you like the thing you're committing to)
You put it down to the other apples (alot of apples) | You get into the BN group, more and more people join
The apple spoils, it stinks | The ranking system changes into something different, gets bad
You dont like spoiled apples | You dont like the "new" ranking system/BN ranking (What you've liked has become bad)
You want to throw the apple away | You want to leave the BNG - but you cant.
You have to eat the apple, even if you dont want to | You have to stay in the BNG, even if you dont want to
The apple stinks, but you have to "endure" the smell | You like modding/helping other people, but you cant do that anymore (since you have to wait to get kicked)
I dont want to be in a system that has changed after my initial entry. I took an apple to give a simplified example of what I think about the system. It was good at first, but with all the changes and a way-too-big BNG things have gotten bad and I dont want to work with that anymore.
The apple is good, you can eat it | The overall ranking system/BN ranking is good, things work together (you like the thing you're committing to)
You put it down to the other apples (alot of apples) | You get into the BN group, more and more people join
The apple spoils, it stinks | The ranking system changes into something different, gets bad
You dont like spoiled apples | You dont like the "new" ranking system/BN ranking (What you've liked has become bad)
You want to throw the apple away | You want to leave the BNG - but you cant.
You have to eat the apple, even if you dont want to | You have to stay in the BNG, even if you dont want to
The apple stinks, but you have to "endure" the smell | You like modding/helping other people, but you cant do that anymore (since you have to wait to get kicked)
I dont want to be in a system that has changed after my initial entry. I took an apple to give a simplified example of what I think about the system. It was good at first, but with all the changes and a way-too-big BNG things have gotten bad and I dont want to work with that anymore.
So you cannot mod other beatmaps because you're a BN? huh?Yauxo wrote:
You like modding/helping other people, but you cant do that anymore (since you have to wait to get kicked)
He is right
If you want to quit being BN, but still want to mod some maps, There is no possibility, as the mod score goes up, making it seem as if you are active
If you want to quit being BN, but still want to mod some maps, There is no possibility, as the mod score goes up, making it seem as if you are active
You could still mod via IRC/PM and just not post the logs or receive kudosu, and it would "appear" as if you were inactive/not contributing, but of course this isn't ideal :/
Just as harby did some time ago
Mod and iconed still, but rejected ALL kudosu he got
Mod and iconed still, but rejected ALL kudosu he got
So uh what is the point in rejecting legit kds ?
Mercurial
It's probably the fact taht they have a label of "bug me if you want your map qualified!" on them when they're BNs, which is probably pretty annoying to get a bunch of mod requests in-game and whatnot when you're trying to enjoy the game without having any obligations. I guess the possibility to "hide" your nominator status would be possible during modding v2? Where even if you have enough score, you can decide to not show that publicly or smth. dno.
You can always tell people you're not nominating maps anymore and keep modding as usual, no one will be yelling at you for that.Baraatje123 wrote:
He is right
If you want to quit being BN, but still want to mod some maps, There is no possibility, as the mod score goes up, making it seem as if you are active
Activity won't drop that much after the purge, we all agree on this. The "too many bubbles" can be easily fixed by focusing more on checking the already bubbled maps. In the old times there were problems like this, and were fixed easily like this. Qualify cap is an issue? Stop giving bubbles that easily while this number reduces, pop the bubble if necessary (like if the map is still poor to get ranked).
As a mapper it is actually quite annonying when you ask several BNs to check your map and every single one of them tell you that they are not willing to do BN work anymore. So yeah, it's true that it's not their fault, being unable to leave on their own and we cannot blame them for it, but it is very unpractical to find 'real' active BNs.DakeDekaane wrote:
You can always tell people you're not nominating maps anymore and keep modding as usual, no one will be yelling at you for that.
The thing with "stop giving bubbles that easy" is that every BN has a different subjective opinion. If you dont like it, dont bubble it - Im pretty sure that someone else will though, maybe even just for the pointsDakeDekaane wrote:
The "too many bubbles" can be easily fixed by focusing more on checking the already bubbled maps. In the old times there were problems like this, and were fixed easily like this. Qualify cap is an issue? Stop giving bubbles that easily while this number reduces, pop the bubble if necessary (like if the map is still poor to get ranked).
Why do you want to leave the BNG? does staying in it affect you somehow?Yauxo wrote:
xxdeathx wrote:
I don't see the connection, so you're gonna have to spell it out for me. BNG membership is nothing like eating a spoiled apple. It affects you minimally.explained crapYou buy the apple/You join the BNG (you commit to something)
The apple is good, you can eat it | The overall ranking system/BN ranking is good, things work together (you like the thing you're committing to)
You put it down to the other apples (alot of apples) | You get into the BN group, more and more people join
The apple spoils, it stinks | The ranking system changes into something different, gets bad
You dont like spoiled apples | You dont like the "new" ranking system/BN ranking (What you've liked has become bad)
You want to throw the apple away | You want to leave the BNG - but you cant.
You have to eat the apple, even if you dont want to | You have to stay in the BNG, even if you dont want to
The apple stinks, but you have to "endure" the smell | You like modding/helping other people, but you cant do that anymore (since you have to wait to get kicked)
I dont want to be in a system that has changed after my initial entry. I took an apple to give a simplified example of what I think about the system. It was good at first, but with all the changes and a way-too-big BNG things have gotten bad and I dont want to work with that anymore.
Who says you have to stay in the BNG? You can avoid giving icons or modding. Why do you care if you have to stay?
Why can't you keep on modding/helping others? Why do you care how modding activity affects your BN status?
Ultimately, these three points are contingent on the assertion that membership in the BNG causes you tangible distress (like eating a spoiled apple), which I can't see it doing.
BN's are normal users with the ability to bubble/rank. I thought it's rather easy to understand that you don't have to care about this if you aren't interested in it; dont icon anything. There, you're just like a normal user. Who cares what your score is or whether you're technically in the BNG?
Why don't you want them to leave the BNG? does keeping them in affect you somehow?
You could flip that question around too. I don't see any tangible distress in having a BNG membership, but I also don't see any tangible distress in simply removing them.
You could flip that question around too. I don't see any tangible distress in having a BNG membership, but I also don't see any tangible distress in simply removing them.
I just have the feeling that, a lot of people or BNs think that being part of BNG is a kind of recognition for being good at modding or active in this community. Also, some people could think BNG is the inner circle of the best modders on this game. For those who think that, you're wrong.
BNG is not part of staff members, don't feel like someone that could be intimidating just because you have a poor BN title. That's disgusting.
And don't consider yourself as someone important that could change the current system, don't yell "i want to quit because xxxx reasons, firetruck this system, the staff members etc". Just don't say anything and make yourself forgotten, just fade away like a little flower on the river.
I'm just disgusted by these kind of "drama".
You were welcomed by the staff members to join the BNG, and now that's how you say "thanks" to them ?
BNG is not part of staff members, don't feel like someone that could be intimidating just because you have a poor BN title. That's disgusting.
And don't consider yourself as someone important that could change the current system, don't yell "i want to quit because xxxx reasons, firetruck this system, the staff members etc". Just don't say anything and make yourself forgotten, just fade away like a little flower on the river.
I'm just disgusted by these kind of "drama".
You were welcomed by the staff members to join the BNG, and now that's how you say "thanks" to them ?
You're right, it doesn't matter either way, but loctav and ztrot already decided on the existing system for whatever reasons to simulate automation.monstrata wrote:
Why don't you want them to leave the BNG? does keeping them in affect you somehow?
You could flip that question around too. I don't see any tangible distress in having a BNG membership, but I also don't see any tangible distress in simply removing them.
Okay guys, let's cut it here for a moment. I can understand that many of you have still questions or want to talk about certain things this system brings with it, but things are becoming heated up even though the main point of this thread has been reached already and announced. I will lock the thread for now so everyone can think a bit about this for themself.