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B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Mahogany wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Star rating does not determine difficulty. Not even physical difficulty.
Uh, yes it does? The system might have a few failings, but it very, very much does determine difficulty.

If we're arguing that Scarlet Rose is far tougher than 5 stars, then that's a problem with the star rating system, not with the PP system.
Alright, compare which of these is more physically difficulty and then tell me there is nothing wrong with the star rating system. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/129285 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/255342

Star rating and pp are connected. Sliders should give more star rating and in turn more pp, and getting 100's on slider ends or not should give an impact on the aim pp you get from it. There also needs to be a small reading pp bonus for sliders, as well as lower AR.
Last edited by B1rd , edited 1 time in total.
E m i
E m i
plz make missed sliderends reduce only aim pp and not acc pp so i can have a 284pp play :( :( :( :( ^)
Risa
435 posts
Joined January 2014
Risa
U can actually just not care abt pp and enjoy game like rrtyui

U dont need to be ranked 1 in the rankings to be widely regarded as the best player by the community
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

B1rd wrote:

Alright, compare which of these is more physically difficulty and then tell me there is nothing wrong with the star rating system. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/129285 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/255342
Can't be bothered.

Besides, I've never said there's nothing wrong with the star system.

B1rd wrote:

Sliders should give more star rating and in turn more pp, and getting 100's on slider ends or not should give an impact on the aim pp you get from it. There also needs to be a small reading pp bonus for sliders, as well as lower AR.
So, as I said, the problem is with star rating calculation, not with the PP system, as far as I can tell.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Mahogany wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Alright, compare which of these is more physically difficulty and then tell me there is nothing wrong with the star rating system. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/129285 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/255342
Can't be bothered.

Besides, I've never said there's nothing wrong with the star system.

So, as I said, the problem is with star rating calculation, not with the PP system, as far as I can tell.
I said that star rating does not determine physical difficulty. And you contradicted me. So that mean you must have thought that the star rating does correctly determine physical difficulty.

And I already said, the star rating is linked to the pp system, so they both need to be fixed.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I've never cared about this "Physical difficulty" you're talking about. I only care about difficulty to FC. And as far as I'm aware, that's what Star Rating works off of, and I think it's fine, personally. There aren't enough broken farm maps just yet so I think the system is fine for now.

And I'm not exactly sure what this "Physical difficulty" is, exactly, but if it is what I think it is, your average 6 star map is going to be a lot more physically difficult than your average 5 star map.
woqx
177 posts
Joined June 2011
woqx

Mahogany wrote:

My skillset isn't appropriate to FC Scarlet Rose.

With the current PP system, Scarlet Rose's current PP reward makes sense. It's OD7, so it gives little acc PP. It has a lot of breaks, so fewer hitobjects for the marathon bonus, and IIRC there are a lot of sliders, which are underweighted.

Yep, it makes sense to me why Scarlet Rose is worth what it is.
It makes sense that the map only gives little pp with the current system, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed to give more. I doubt there are many people setting ~200 pp scores that have the skillset to fc those difficult alternating maps. You could say they're skills you would usually start learning later on, ex. when you're setting ~300pp scores just a guess.
A lot of harder alternating maps have only been fcd by a few players (some examples) but I'm sure that if the pp/star rating system was changed to make them more rewarding, we would start seeing many more fcs because people would actually spend time playing them. This would also lead to more alternating maps being made and ranked, which i think is a great thing.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Mahogany wrote:

I've never cared about this "Physical difficulty" you're talking about. I only care about difficulty to FC. And as far as I'm aware, that's what Star Rating works off of, and I think it's fine, personally. There aren't enough broken farm maps just yet so I think the system is fine for now.

And I'm not exactly sure what this "Physical difficulty" is, exactly, but if it is what I think it is, your average 6 star map is going to be a lot more physically difficult than your average 5 star map.
Physical difficulty is physical difficult. Pretty self-explanatory. And that is what star rating is based off, the speed and distance between notes, 'how difficult it is to FC' isn't a factor. If it was Scarlet Rose would be over 6 stars. When it calculates sliders it takes the shortest possibly route, which is of course humanely impossible and is why slider maps don't give enough star rating.

There aren't any broken farm maps but on the other hand there are thousands of broken maps that don't give nearly enough pp for the difficulty.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

B1rd wrote:

There aren't any broken farm maps
Best friends?
Miraizu?
Setting Sail?
Pony Farm maps?
Daidai?
Koigokoro?

B1rd wrote:

When it calculates sliders
Yes, sliders are underweighted. That is one of the problems with the Star/PP system.

B1rd wrote:

thousands of broken maps that don't give nearly enough pp for the difficulty.
This can be for reasons outside of how they're mapped, though. A simple change in OD can ridiculously change the map's PP worth. A 5.3* 1:30 OD7 map would be completely worthless to me, but the same map at OD9 would be massive PP.

woqx wrote:

I'm sure that if the pp/star rating system was changed to make them more rewarding
Well, I agree. The system has problems and needs to be changed or updated at some point.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Mahogany wrote:

B1rd wrote:

There aren't any broken farm maps
Best friends?
Miraizu?
Setting Sail?
Pony Farm maps?
Daidai?
Koigokoro?
They're not broken. They're just the farmiest maps in the game because they the easiest to FC and the easiest to acc for their star rating and OD.

Mahogany wrote:

Yes, sliders are underweighted. That is one of the problems with the Star/PP system.

B1rd wrote:

thousands of broken maps that don't give nearly enough pp for the difficulty.
This can be for reasons outside of how they're mapped, though. A simple change in OD can ridiculously change the map's PP worth. A 5.3* 1:30 OD7 map would be completely worthless to me, but the same map at OD9 would be massive PP.

woqx wrote:

I'm sure that if the pp/star rating system was changed to make them more rewarding
Well, I agree. The system has problems and needs to be changed or updated at some point.
Seems we are in agreement now.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Oh, no, I've always agreed that the system needs a rework and I'm sorry if I've come off as otherwise.

I certainly think a map such as Miraizu is broken.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

woqx wrote:

Mahogany wrote:

My skillset isn't appropriate to FC Scarlet Rose.

With the current PP system, Scarlet Rose's current PP reward makes sense. It's OD7, so it gives little acc PP. It has a lot of breaks, so fewer hitobjects for the marathon bonus, and IIRC there are a lot of sliders, which are underweighted.

Yep, it makes sense to me why Scarlet Rose is worth what it is.
It makes sense that the map only gives little pp with the current system, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed to give more. I doubt there are many people setting ~200 pp scores that have the skillset to fc those difficult alternating maps. You could say they're skills you would usually start learning later on, ex. when you're setting ~300pp scores just a guess.
A lot of harder alternating maps have only been fcd by a few players (some examples) but I'm sure that if the pp/star rating system was changed to make them more rewarding, we would start seeing many more fcs because people would actually spend time playing them. This would also lead to more alternating maps being made and ranked, which i think is a great thing.
Every 180+ bpm map with DT is an alternate map. There are plenty of them that are playable even.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

chainpullz wrote:

Every 180+ bpm map with DT is an alternate map. There are plenty of them that are playable even.
I disagree. Singletapping 270 bpm is an option.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Khelly wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

Every 180+ bpm map with DT is an alternate map. There are plenty of them that are playable even.
I disagree. Singletapping 270 bpm is an option.
Notice my statement wasn't mutually exclusive.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Notice how your statement becomes useless if it isn't because you could just as well say "Every map is an alternate map" and I have no clue what your point is.

Every 180 bpm map with DT is an alternate map
Every 180 bpm map with DT is a singletap map also

What's the point? This is just redundant non-information.

If you wanted to make it more coherent at first glance you could've said "You can alternate any map you want to, and every 180+ BPM DT map is alternatable as well." Saying a map is an "alternate map" makes it sound like the map was made specifically and only for that one style as if you're not supposed to play it another way.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Khelly wrote:

Notice how your statement becomes useless if it isn't because you could just as well say "Every map is an alternate map" and I have no clue what your point is.

Every 180 bpm map with DT is an alternate map
Every 180 bpm map with DT is a singletap map also

What's the point? This is just redundant non-information.

If you wanted to make it more coherent at first glance you could've said "You can alternate any map you want to, and every 180+ BPM DT map is alternatable as well." Saying a map is an "alternate map" makes it sound like the map was made specifically and only for that one style as if you're not supposed to play it another way.
No, you just want to brag about your single tapping capability. It's very clear what an alternate map is. Go try single tapping kokou no seisei [insane] + dt and tell me that's a single tap map too. Most 180 bpm maps with DT have similar patterns and speed to the maps that people lable as "alternate maps." You can single tap most of scarlet rose but that doesn't make it not an alternate map.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I don't think 270bpm is where alternate starts, quite a few people seem to be capable of singletapping 270bpm, as far as I can see.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Mahogany wrote:

I don't think 270bpm is where alternate starts, quite a few people seem to be capable of singletapping 270bpm, as far as I can see.
Quite a few people are capable of single tapping well over 300bpm. That doesn't stop people from classifying certain maps as alternate maps. It's clearly not mutually exclusive the way it's used.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

chainpullz wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Notice how your statement becomes useless if it isn't because you could just as well say "Every map is an alternate map" and I have no clue what your point is.

Every 180 bpm map with DT is an alternate map
Every 180 bpm map with DT is a singletap map also

What's the point? This is just redundant non-information.

If you wanted to make it more coherent at first glance you could've said "You can alternate any map you want to, and every 180+ BPM DT map is alternatable as well." Saying a map is an "alternate map" makes it sound like the map was made specifically and only for that one style as if you're not supposed to play it another way.
No, you just want to brag about your single tapping capability. It's very clear what an alternate map is. Go try single tapping kokou no seisei [insane] + dt and tell me that's a single tap map too. Most 180 bpm maps with DT have similar patterns and speed to the maps that people lable as "alternate maps." You can single tap most of scarlet rose but that doesn't make it not an alternate map.
What's the use of this example? Saying that someone should be able to 240 bpm + DT? Will anyone pass that? Even rafis? (Nevermind, I was thinking chaos since I thought insane was the highest diff for some reason) You're just labelling maps as alternate or not and trying to suggest that that's the way they should be played. It makes it SOUND like they're mutually exclusive.

At the moment you've only said "it's very clear what an alternate map is" and no I don't think so. What IS an alternate map? Is it lots of sliders? Is it solely a high speed like you're trying to base it off of?

Why should you specifically point out 180+ bpm +DT as "alternate maps" when you can do this for any bpm? What sets off your alarm for classifying maps starting at 270 bpm instead of a lower one like 250?
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
It's a point where maps start to be more physically demanding for alternating (as opposed to sub 100bpm on each finger for instance). I'm in no way saying the majority of maps that do this are 270bpm. There is a "+" attached to it for a reason. 180 bpm was mostly an arbitrary number based on the idea that most players initially struggle their way through stream practice maps starting around 135 bpm and many 270 bpm sections play like 135bpm spaced streams.

Edit: And as far as I'm concerned the only distinguishable difference between a stream map and an alternate map is spacing.
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Ziggo

Endaris wrote:

It's hard to give decent feedback though if I don't which parameters you use and how much influence they have.
Especially considering that we're talking about very hard maps most people here aren't even close to playing properly(I can't get a grasp at least).

I'd prefer to see a list of maps that are easier and popular so I have an easier time relating. Talking about current pp-maps like my topranks or some 08/15 Sword Art Online or Attack On Titan theme. A decently popular map like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/315614&m=0 and hard to read maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/191580 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/59130 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/54708 would also be very interesting to get a look at, same for EZ-mod-plays.
I checked the highest pp score of the maps you posted:
(Player | pp -> pp with my changes)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/315614&m=0 : Neab | 185 -> 214
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/191580 : JappyBabes | 210 -> 282
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/59130 : DO96CH | 122 -> 218
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/54708 : WubWoofWolf | 280 -> 282

I'm kinda surprised the last map has barely any pp change, but I guess it's already giving quite a lot of pp.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Now I'd be curious how much pp is distributed into acc in your system.
Cause especially the Shinshuu Plains is - in my opinion at least - not hard to FC. You just have to play it like 3 times to get used to the spots with overlaps and then you can FC it(with bad acc).
To me it looks like even a nomod 93% FC(like I have) would yield fairly massive pp(like 130-140?) even though the map is not that hard at all.
Would be interesting to see how much #49 (96,23% nomod) would get and how you relate pattern complexity/reading difficulty with accuracy.

/edit: Just to make sure: Did you check the Luca-Diff or the BASARA-Diff for the BASARA-Map? Cause the Luca diff is much harder to read. Like in REALLY hard. Play it xd
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Ziggo

Endaris wrote:

Now I'd be curious how much pp is distributed into acc in your system.
Cause especially the Shinshuu Plains is - in my opinion at least - not hard to FC. You just have to play it like 3 times to get used to the spots with overlaps and then you can FC it(with bad acc).
To me it looks like even a nomod 93% FC(like I have) would yield fairly massive pp(like 130-140?) even though the map is not that hard at all.
Would be interesting to see how much #49 (96,23% nomod) would get and how you relate pattern complexity/reading difficulty with accuracy.
That score is 140pp, so I guess your 93% fc would be around 120pp (or maybe a bit less).

Endaris wrote:

/edit: Just to make sure: Did you check the Luca-Diff or the BASARA-Diff for the BASARA-Map? Cause the Luca diff is much harder to read. Like in REALLY hard. Play it xd
Yes, I checked Luca-Diff. I guess you haven't noticed, but I do actually have a DT fc on that map, so I know how hard it is. While I agree the reading is hard, it's not THAT hard.
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