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thnikk's Osu! Keypads [Development]
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Interresting, Kev, do you think this massively better score is because you used the keypad or more coindence (Since Skill can flucate from day to day)?
Granger wrote:
Interresting, Kev, do you think this massively better score is because you used the keypad or more coindence (Since Skill can flucate from day to day)?
hmm good question, well considering this was my first FC on this song with the keypad id have to say it was more so cause of the keypad.
Is the polling rate really an issue? I'm kinda hesitating to take one just for that, considering you might upgrade it <.<
Topic Starter
This made me laugh. Thanks for the videoKevEz wrote:
or dont
Honestly, I'm content as long as it didn't make him worse. I just wanted people to have something tiny and customizable to play osu on. If you can play better with it too, that's awesome!Granger wrote:
Interresting, Kev, do you think this massively better score is because you used the keypad or more coindence (Since Skill can flucate from day to day)?
I'm going to update the OP at some point since that does seem ambiguous, but that post was really just part of a conversation from the previous thread. I've thought about it and upgrading the trinket to a teensy doesn't seem worth it. I've gotten enough price complaints as it is, so adding $10 to the price does not seem viable at all.SupraKyun wrote:
Is the polling rate really an issue? I'm kinda hesitating to take one just for that, considering you might upgrade it <.<
And that was the main reason I wanted Kev's video. Hopefully this dispels the fear that it's as big of an issue as I made it seem originally. I just wanted people to know it was a potential issue at the time so nobody that bought one was upset that I didn't say anything about it. I'm not trying to say that the difference between 8 and 1ms is negligible, but I don't think the vast majority of people would notice.
This gives me more of peace of mind. Thanks for the numbers.[ Momiji ] wrote:
od10 = 18 ms margin of error
125hz = 8ms max input lag
I no longer had any "complaints" about the keypad. Theirs no delay, the USB issue I was having was coming from my end so that's not a problem, only took me like an hour of usage to get comfortable (I ended up keeping the o-rings on, loved the noise reduction), its small so its ideal to carry around when I visit other friends who play OSU, the cable it came with was short for me but only cause my desktop is a bit farther then my play area.
Only the tape is the issue in my opinion, the keypad is very light so it needs something to keep it from moving so much for "intense streamers" other then that it works like a charm.
Works and functions properly with no delay as expected
9/10 would fap again -IGN
Side note: I got my friend to come over and try it out, he's much lower ranked but he said it felt comfortable and smooth to use.
Only the tape is the issue in my opinion, the keypad is very light so it needs something to keep it from moving so much for "intense streamers" other then that it works like a charm.
Works and functions properly with no delay as expected
9/10 would fap again -IGN
Side note: I got my friend to come over and try it out, he's much lower ranked but he said it felt comfortable and smooth to use.
may I am just brain dead, but why 125hz = 8ms input lag?[ Momiji ] wrote:
od10 = 18 ms margin of error
125hz = 8ms max input lag
the 125hz doesn't tell me anything about input delays, it rather tells me how often the computer is checking the USB data. Which is basically 125 times per second.
I would like to see someone who is going to stream 125 beats per second. The value is kinda useless when it comes to keyboards (in my opinion).
E m i
1000ms / 125hz = 8msDeimos wrote:
may I am just brain dead, but why 125hz = 8ms input lag?[ Momiji ] wrote:
od10 = 18 ms margin of error
125hz = 8ms max input lag
the 125hz doesn't tell me anything about input delays, it rather tells me how often the computer is checking the USB data. Which is basically 125 times per second.
I would like to see someone who is going to stream 125 beats per second. The value is kinda useless when it comes to keyboards (in my opinion).
once every 8 msDeimos wrote:
how often the computer is checking the USB data
hence the delay is variable.
your keystroke can be registered after 0 - 8ms.
this basically means that if you changed the polling rate to 500hz, you would do as well on od9 as you would on od10 before. (0 - 2 ms input lag)
delay variability is also dependant on fps
ZenithPhantasm
E m i
Well, seems right.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Input lag in ms= 1/fpsx1000+1000/pollingrate+displaylag(CRTs have no display lag whatsoever)+framebuffer
Also, I was only pointing out the effect of input lag variability on accuracy, but truth is that input lag also fiddles with hand synchronization.
example:
rrtyui
gangsta
cursor on slider, sliderbreak
ZenithPhantasm
Its particularly dangerous for mouse players because mouse feels like crap unless you set polling rate to 500hz+.[ Momiji ] wrote:
Well, seems right.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Input lag in ms= 1/fpsx1000+1000/pollingrate+displaylag(CRTs have no display lag whatsoever)+framebuffer
Also, I was only pointing out the effect of input lag variability on accuracy, but truth is that input lag also fiddles with hand synchronization.
example:
rrtyui
gangsta
cursor on slider, sliderbreak
Input lag of default/office mice (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of gaming mice (500-1000hz): 1-2 ms
Input lag of most keyboards (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of Wacom tablets (133hz): 7.52ms
Input lag of Huion tablets (200hz): 5ms
Assuming a player using a Wacom and a 125hz keyboard, he/she only has to deal with a 0.48ms difference which is unnoticeable.
However, a mouse player using a high end mouse and a 125hz keyboard has to deal with a 7ms difference which is massive and certainly noticeable for most people (yes you can still work around it but it wouldn't be the same).
So the delay thing isn't really an issue, at least at my level XD. Do you think you are going to upgrade it anytime soon on anything?
Topic Starter
I had no idea it was so low on wacom tablets. Again, thank you guys for providing such insightful information for me any everyone else in the thread.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Its particularly dangerous for mouse players because mouse feels like crap unless you set polling rate to 500hz+.
Input lag of default/office mice (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of gaming mice (500-1000hz): 1-2 ms
Input lag of most keyboards (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of Wacom tablets (133hz): 7.52ms
Input lag of Huion tablets (200hz): 5ms
Assuming a player using a Wacom and a 125hz keyboard, he/she only has to deal with a 0.48ms difference which is unnoticeable.
However, a mouse player using a high end mouse and a 125hz keyboard has to deal with a 7ms difference which is massive and certainly noticeable for most people (yes you can still work around it but it wouldn't be the same).
Probably not, aside from some additional keycap options. I'm settled on all of the parts for the time being. If anything, there might be a higher price teensy model for 1000hz that will be made in small quantity, but it will be identical in every other way and it wouldn't happen for at least a few weeks.SupraKyun wrote:
So the delay thing isn't really an issue, at least at my level XD. Do you think you are going to upgrade it anytime soon on anything?
Oh okay, thank you!
Edit: I bought one! Tell me if you need some review once i receive it! I kinda live in France so i wonder how long it will take o- O
Edit: I bought one! Tell me if you need some review once i receive it! I kinda live in France so i wonder how long it will take o- O
What skin did you use during the demonstration video?
Topic Starter
Average time for first class mail is 1-3 weeks, but it averages at a little over a week in my experience. If you'd like to leave some feedback/a review here in the thread, that would be wonderful!SupraKyun wrote:
Oh okay, thank you!
Edit: I bought one! Tell me if you need some review once i receive it! I kinda live in France so i wonder how long it will take o- O
I think you mean Kev's demo video which is available for download on his profile here.UberBagel wrote:
What skin did you use during the demonstration video?
Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it 
. Cloudy Keycaps with Cherry MX Red *q*.
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
. Cloudy Keycaps with Cherry MX Red *q*. Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.SupraKyun wrote:
Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
I see, well i hope it will stick fine on da mousepad and the tape better last for a while XD. Now, just waiting for the keypad to come!KevEz wrote:
Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.SupraKyun wrote:
Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
I hope there is no disadvantage if i use the keypad with the right hand? Because i'm left handed so i'm using the tablet with my lefthand and keyboard with my right hand.
KevEz, are you only playing with the keypad now?
Topic Starter
OP updated after an eternity.
If you stick it to a cloth mousepad, ignore the PS on the note in the box
There shouldn't be. The escape key was placed to be pushed by the side of your ring finger (which does sound pretty awkward,) but can also be used with your thumb.SupraKyun wrote:
I see, well i hope it will stick fine on da mousepad and the tape better last for a while XD. Now, just waiting for the keypad to come!KevEz wrote:
Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.
I hope there is no disadvantage if i use the keypad with the right hand? Because i'm left handed so i'm using the tablet with my lefthand and keyboard with my right hand.
KevEz, are you only playing with the keypad now?
If you stick it to a cloth mousepad, ignore the PS on the note in the box
As of now.. Yes I'm only using the keypad. The keypad works fine, its just up to you to improve and get better at the game overall.
ZenithPhantasm
Topic Starter
I've tried rubber feet initially and they didn't work particularly well, mainly because they keypads aren't heavy enough. The cable has more influence on it than anything else, and while playing you just sort of nudge it around. These do look a little bit more rubbery than my last ones though, so I'll give it a shot.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
I heard this could solve all those tape problems
I also have 7 radio shacks within a 10 mile radius of me and they're $2. How could I go wrong?
ZenithPhantasm
Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/24634ZenithPhantasm wrote:
KevEz can I have the replay files from your thnikk keypad and rubberdome comparison?
Also please link me the map.
Keypad replay: http://puu.sh/etI9f/ac6bd34e28.osr
RubberDome Replay: http://puu.sh/etIpb/f606a4d0d2.osr
Anyway, i'm excited to try it with all the lightning and stuff Q.Q xD.
I saw you sent it earlier today. Now just have to wait for it
I saw you sent it earlier today
. Now just have to wait for it
ZenithPhantasm
If all else fails:Thnikk wrote:
I've tried rubber feet initially and they didn't work particularly well, mainly because they keypads aren't heavy enough. The cable has more influence on it than anything else, and while playing you just sort of nudge it around. These do look a little bit more rubbery than my last ones though, so I'll give it a shot.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
I heard this could solve all those tape problems
I also have 7 radio shacks within a 10 mile radius of me and they're $2. How could I go wrong?
IT MIGHT NOT BE PRETTY BUT IT WILL WORK!
I exactly have something like your picture on the right!
Topic Starter
I was playing around a bit today:
Unfortunately, I couldn't get pin 4 working with the LED so I had to use pins 1 and 2 for the LEDs and have the buttons share pin 3. Not ideal and I'd still like to try to get pin 4 working, but it doesn't seem to play too well with the keyboard library.
Unfortunately, I couldn't get pin 4 working with the LED so I had to use pins 1 and 2 for the LEDs and have the buttons share pin 3. Not ideal and I'd still like to try to get pin 4 working, but it doesn't seem to play too well with the keyboard library.
SupraKyun wrote:
Anyway, i'm excited to try it with all the lightning and stuff Q.Q xD.
I saw you sent it earlier today
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought of that. Just replace the wood with a plastic mouse pad and the glue with tape and add a wrist rest underneath.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
I'm happy you're excited for it
If all else fails:
GLUE + WOOD
IT MIGHT NOT BE PRETTY BUT IT WILL WORK!
Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
ZenithPhantasm
The springs inside the switches are made of steel I think.sanguisinvia wrote:
For gripping the table without using tape, I would suggest trying some silicon rubber single sided tape. These tapes have a static coefficient of friction of up to 4. I have used these tapes to grip everything from plywood to the surface of poly-carbonate. However, these tapes only stick to themselves...Actually, maybe this stuff isn't the best for your application
Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
From what I can find, the springs are made from stainless steel, which is generally non-magnetic. However, the sources disagree with each other on whether the stainless steel used is a magnetic strand. But for the sake of argument, let's say that they were magnetic, the small springs would be magnetized toward the bottom of the plate. Due to their housing, they cannot move around, so as far as I can tell, there would be no issue with magnets even if the springs were magnetic.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
The springs inside the switches are made of steel I think.
What?... The material of the spring remains constant, and even when the spring is fully compressed, it is still firmly attached on all edges... To go even further, the springs are more constrained when they are compressed... I don't quite understand what you are trying to get at...ZenithPhantasm wrote:
What about when the spring is compressed?
Topic Starter
I think I have some neodymium magnets lying around so I'll give it a try, but I have 2 concerns. The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks. My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.sanguisinvia wrote:
For gripping the table without using tape, I would suggest trying some silicon rubber single sided tape. These tapes have a static coefficient of friction of up to 4. I have used these tapes to grip everything from plywood to the surface of poly-carbonate. However, these tapes only stick to themselves...Actually, maybe this stuff isn't the best for your application
Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
The switches have gold cross-point contacts, gold is non-magnetic. But for the sake of argument, and because they are only gold plated, we'll say that the inner material is magnetic. Even so, you would need a much stronger magnet if you wanted to even dream of deforming the metal contacts, especially if you look at how the magnetic force would be applied to the contacts themselves. (The contacts are separated by a piece of plastic which is attached to the stem of the switch (the plus piece that the key attaches to) In order for the magnet to trigger a connection between the contacts, it would need to be able to move that plastic piece downwards)Thnikk wrote:
The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks.
I never said that this was an end-all solution, only a possible solution for those who didn't want to use tape or glue on their desks. But I am interested in seeing your final solution for securing such a light object to the table.Thnikk wrote:
My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.
Topic Starter
Looked at the switch gifs again and you're totally right. I was thinking everything was the opposite (even though I've opened switches before.)sanguisinvia wrote:
The switches have gold cross-point contacts, gold is non-magnetic. But for the sake of argument, and because they are only gold plated, we'll say that the inner material is magnetic. Even so, you would need a much stronger magnet if you wanted to even dream of deforming the metal contacts, especially if you look at how the magnetic force would be applied to the contacts themselves. (The contacts are separated by a piece of plastic which is attached to the stem of the switch (the plus piece that the key attaches to) In order for the magnet to trigger a connection between the contacts, it would need to be able to move that plastic piece downwards)Thnikk wrote:
The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks.I never said that this was an end-all solution, only a possible solution for those who didn't want to use tape or glue on their desks. But I am interested in seeing your final solution for securing such a light object to the table. (If your going to go with tape, use painter's tape, as it is designed to not damage the surface to which it is applied)Thnikk wrote:
My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.
I'm going to mess around with it a bit while waiting for parts for the next batch (when this one sells out, 7/9 sold.) I want to try these out and I guess I'll add painter's tape to the list, too!
How about using velcro tape??? Cheap to swing by Home Depot and picking up a strip or two. Not as elegant but it works
If you're worried about movability you could velcro it to some hardcover book or something
If you're worried about movability you could velcro it to some hardcover book or something
Received the keypad today (Cherry MX Red switches) and I've been playing with it for around an hour or so. It's not much of a review but hopefully it would help a little.
There was something wrong with the shipping at first but it was actually resolved quite quickly and thnikk threw in extra keycaps, which I thought was a really nice gesture.
Everything was alright, nothing got wrecked from the shipping and everything was in good condition. It only took me a minute to start. The only thing was that the keypad was so light, so it started moving around everywhere when I was playing with it. I'm not sure if it's not supposed to come with the tape or anything, but I found an alternative solution (?) that stopped it from moving around since my streamings are quite... intense.
The O-rings were completely fine too. It actually reduces the noise significantly and it's much easier to press down on the keys. This might be personal preference though, but I thought it would be good to just touch on it a little.
It's been an hour or so and everything's going good. There's no delay when I'm playing and I'm loving this keypad a lot! I'll update if there's any issues but honestly, I doubt there would be any. I wouldn't be able to show any live play or any pro plays since I'm only 13k but if a replay would help, I'll gladly contribute.
tl;dr 10/10 just go and get it already
There was something wrong with the shipping at first but it was actually resolved quite quickly and thnikk threw in extra keycaps, which I thought was a really nice gesture.
Everything was alright, nothing got wrecked from the shipping and everything was in good condition. It only took me a minute to start. The only thing was that the keypad was so light, so it started moving around everywhere when I was playing with it. I'm not sure if it's not supposed to come with the tape or anything, but I found an alternative solution (?) that stopped it from moving around since my streamings are quite... intense.
The O-rings were completely fine too. It actually reduces the noise significantly and it's much easier to press down on the keys. This might be personal preference though, but I thought it would be good to just touch on it a little.
It's been an hour or so and everything's going good. There's no delay when I'm playing and I'm loving this keypad a lot! I'll update if there's any issues but honestly, I doubt there would be any. I wouldn't be able to show any live play or any pro plays since I'm only 13k but if a replay would help, I'll gladly contribute.
tl;dr 10/10 just go and get it already