Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Rule change] Possible approval for 4:00-5:00

posted
Total Posts
66
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Bara-
first of all, sorry that I cannot quote a existing rule, as I am on mobile phone
So map over 5:00 go for Approval
But how about songs which are around 4:30, which are nigh impossible to map in easy/normal
Heck, it's hard to even map them in hard
Let's say, short version of Image -Material <Version0>, stops at violin (IIRC, this is around 4:30)
There is no way to map that in Easy
There are more songs like this, so I request to change the current rule, with approval only counting for 5:00, to be changed
Maps around 4:00-5:00 can go for approval, but BATs must approve of this first. Maps over 5:00 will go for approval (if only one diff is present) (off topic: can a 5:00+ map with more difficulties get ranked?)
So yeah, a BAT should say if the map fits for approval
Maybe make a new icon, to show it's good for approval
This should probably only be done (asking BAT for approvability) when the Insane diff is finished


why am I 'requesting' this?
I'm gonna make a map, but time is 4:56, and easy is nigh impossible to map on that one. xD
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Any song can be mapped with a full spread of difficulties if you try hard enough.
Ayachi-
2,261 posts
Joined November 2013
Ayachi-

baraatje123 wrote:

(off topic: can a 5:00+ map with more difficulties get ranked?)
yes
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Lust wrote:

Any song can be mapped with a full spread of difficulties if you try hard enough.
this ^, also 5 mins is already ok for ¨marathon¨, reducing more the time doesn't make sense, since is a marathon
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
It started as 8 mins, then 7 mins, then 6 mins and now 5 mins.

How did i predict this would happen eventually.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
this legitimately made me laugh, ty OP
I'm technically not opposed but it won't happen anyway (yet). Wait a year and ask again.
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
neonat
A proper spread is possible if you put in enough effort. It's not impossible
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
excuse for being lazy o_o
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
the problem isn't spread it's finding people willing to mod lol

instead of trying to reduce times why not re-evaluate whether there's a demand for old style approval with maps like gowww's just awake, charles' dragons, val's mythologia, etc
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Aqo wrote:

the problem isn't spread it's finding people willing to mod lol

instead of trying to reduce times why not re-evaluate whether there's a demand for old style approval with maps like gowww's just awake, charles' dragons, val's mythologia, etc
mods are easy to get IMO, pls https://osu.ppy.sh/s/134151
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
To address the points in the OP, if it's not possible to map a normal, at minimum, maybe you should re-evaluate your reasons for mapping the song in the first place. If a map ends up with ~4:55 drain time, people aren't going to just go NOPE SORRY GET FUCKED NEEDS TO BE 5 MINS OR OVER.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
the marginal effect is exactly that annoying in many cases.

Actually, what i suggest is:

  1. the map which length is no shorter than 5 minutes could be qualified as "approved" with single diff
  2. the map which length is between 2 to 5 minutes, having a reasonable high difficulty, appreciated by 5 BATs and at least 1 QAT, could be qualified as "approved" with single diff
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Then we go back to 2007 where maps didnt need Easy diffs and everyone mapped single insanes for everything /o/

In short, i disagree (also do we even have 5 active BATs)
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Bara-

Scorpiour wrote:

the marginal effect is exactly that annoying in many cases.

Actually, what i suggest is:

  1. the map which length is no shorter than 5 minutes could be qualified as "approved" with single diff
  2. the map which length is between 2 to 5 minutes, having a reasonable high difficulty, appreciated by 5 BATs and at least 1 QAT, could be qualified as "approved" with single diff
I think 2 is way to low though
I'd go for 4 still
Also, some songs are good to map insanes of, but really hard to map easy of
An example is a map of mine (PolyphonicBranch - Impulse x Pandemonics http://osu.ppy.sh/s/188350)
It's lacking a real beat sound, and vocals are kinda off beat, but it's easy to map in Insane, as you can use 3/4, 1/4 w/o any trouble
Actually, what Scorp said is what I meant, with BAT needs to find it okay
5 - 1 may be to much, so I'd go for 3 - 1
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
4,298 posts
Joined July 2011
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
this is simple, just speed down the song to 5bpm lower and it will go over 5:00
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach

[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:

this is simple, just speed down the song to 5bpm lower and it will go over 5:00
or loop a section, both have been done before :^)
Sellenite
1,092 posts
Joined September 2013
Sellenite
4 mins need find 4 bats
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
5 minute limit is here because it actually is quite long time to map such a long song, but that is a real minimum. Every song can have full spread. For case the song has highest diff Extra, there is always possibility to map lower difficulties by decreasing all settings and removing the non-emphasized notes and keep only emphasized notes (downbeat, or simply following drums). About a really slow songs, there is possibility they will force you to map only easy and normal, because hard without overmapping would have the same score at the end. But there are also some maps which have the hardest diff as easy. For this, you can use 5 circle size and increase AR/OD/HP and map almost the same map (respectively only a bit lower score), but it would have lower slider velocity, all settings and snapping. That would make only a little difference between the score, but that actually is not that important in slow songs.

Basically the point of this post is:
  1. If the song is fast and the hardest diff is extra, you can always map lower diffs.
  2. If the song is slow and the hardest diff would be rated as easy, you might increase current settings and make another diff with a bit lower score, but lower settings and with a bit less notes.
If you want a good example of such a slow map, where it was forced to make harder diff just by increasing the settings and reducing then note (and then even score) just by a little, you can check my map yukizakurasou - Pulse

So yup, there always is a solution and we do not need lower limit for approval.
Kodora
Kodora

Lach wrote:

If a map ends up with ~4:55 drain time, people aren't going to just go NOPE SORRY GET FUCKED NEEDS TO BE 5 MINS OR OVER.
How naive, Lach

Anyway, i do agree with Scorpiour's point - each song is unique itself, so for questionable cases it would be so much better and mapper-friendly action to allow specified checking by BATs & QATs for exceptional approval- as for now, such situations where we have so many songs where mapping easiest diffs becomes questioned by mappers/or simple slighty lower drain time becomes questionable isn't really looks nice anyways

doubt that this rule would be changed anyway, but ehh

@Wafu: p/3045006
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
That request is ridiculous. Okay where to start...

We had in the time where 6 Min was the minimum a lot of beatmaps with one Difficulty which were between 5:00 - 5:59 minutes and couldn't be ranked because of the spread/time. And we already had the problem and the argument Sakura has stated in this thread. And it's more than reasoned why this request won't be anyhow good. Without offending anyone but start to put effort to map a full set or to take the effort having a full set by getting Guest mappers. Don't think "awww, three seconds more and it could be approved.", think instead "Let me do a N/H/I Spread (depending on the mapset you want to do).". Don't come with "bla bla bla nobody wants to mod 5 Minutes", try harder. There are many examples which shows it works and people even try to get more than one Difficulty approved, see https://osu.ppy.sh/s/171880 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/145859.

This rule will ends nowhere, we will get people saying "My map is 3:57 long and can't be approved :|" and they will also come to the idea to request a lower Approval time requirement. If we goes this way then we don't need this rule at all.

Kodora wrote:

Anyway, i do agree with Scorpiour's point - each song is unique itself, so for questionable cases it would be so much better and mapper-friendly action to allow specified checking by BATs & QATs for exceptional approval- as for now, such situations where we have so many songs where mapping easiest diffs becomes questioned by mappers/or simple slighty lower drain time becomes questionable isn't really looks nice anyways
In short: You would perfer changing this as Guideline. Well, I am a friend of Guidelines and this would be a better solution than decreasing the requirement for approval but I wouldn't agree to change this. Five minutes is a fairly long time while four became more common to map tbh.

Scorpiour wrote:

  1. the map which length is between 2 to 5 minutes, having a reasonable high difficulty, appreciated by 5 BATs and at least 1 QAT, could be qualified as "approved" with single diff
Can't agree with this. The Difficulty level should be no excuse to have a 2:30 approvable mapset with one Difficulty.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The time limit (which started at like 8 mins and has been reduced all the time due to complaints by the community) was supposed to be to only allow Marathon maps as approval, to keep lowering it more from the point we're already at will just devolve us back to the times were maps didn't need Easies and could get ranked with 1 difficulty, which happened back in 2007.

The key point here, is that the time limit was just to allow marathons to be single diff, and everything else needing a diff spread.
Ekoro
3,456 posts
Joined March 2010
Ekoro
agreed with Scorpiour, i think the -single insane difficulty rule- should be back, there are some songs which are so crazy x_x

Else, 5 mins is fine i guess, and well if it's complaining for like 5 secs, it's unfair then lol

yeah that makes the people who wants to get the "old" rule back incredibly lazy but... ;w;
Flanster
5,938 posts
Joined August 2010
Flanster
Stop being lazy, honestly I don't know how much more it should be lowered until everyone is satisfied with ranking lazy one diff maps.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Kodora wrote:

Kodora, apparently, you are trying to argue with me on every thread, right? EN mapset is not unrankable. It is not stated in any rule, ranking criteria even ALLOWS it. Just if it was not allowed, we should be going to unrank -Bakari-'s beatmap already twice right? Currently I mean craigsmusicchannel - Night Of Rain would not be rankable if Ephemeral's wording was actually a rule.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

LoliFlan wrote:

Stop being lazy, honestly I don't know how much more it should be lowered until everyone is satisfied with ranking lazy one diff maps.
telling people to stop being lazy is stupid when you allow 3 diff 30 second mapsets to be ranked
Flanster
5,938 posts
Joined August 2010
Flanster

silmarilen wrote:

LoliFlan wrote:

Stop being lazy, honestly I don't know how much more it should be lowered until everyone is satisfied with ranking lazy one diff maps.
telling people to stop being lazy is stupid when you allow 3 diff 30 second mapsets to be ranked
Say what, oh im done.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I think 5 minutes should be the minimum. I enjoy a lot of 4:30 hard diffs.
Rukaru
831 posts
Joined April 2012
Rukaru

baraatje123 wrote:

But how about songs which are around 4:30, which are nigh impossible to map in easy/normal

Lust wrote:

Any song can be mapped with a full spread of difficulties if you try hard enough.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/114988 I have tried hard enough.

I disagree with this suggestion. please don't make it lower than 5 mins. please don't back to old rule which allowing single insane difficulty ranked. 5 minutes as minimum length is perfect.
Kodora
Kodora
@Wafu: it's not about icons actually - map, rated as N, sometimes might be hard enough to be considered as Hard - you know, star rating isn't perfect, especially at judging lowest diffs.

Proper spread includes NH as minimum required. EN spreads are unrankable as unbalanced, and, honestly, should never be rankable again.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
Since when is EN unrankable? I honestly don't remember a rule like this o:

Also, if you don't know how to map an Easy for a certain song, ask someone more experienced for a GD. "Even" songs with fast 1/4-spam (like Image Material) can be mapped well - You can use long sliders with nice shapes that fit the streams, or follow a different instrument.
The only songs where it is problematic to map Easys are songs where all of the instrument are weirdly snapped (very rare experimental songs) or songs with continous BPM changes. Those are also possible, by simplifying rhythms.
Sorarei
1,420 posts
Joined August 2012
Sorarei
you asked amazing things, good luck
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
such a nice suggestion, I can go forward and suggest to allow people rank their single cancer diff TV-size mappu dedicated to cat
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I actually have to agree with Desperate-kun about mapping the easier diffs. The "rule" you talk about does not make EN mapsets forbidden but allowed and considered as a minimum. You probably do not understand one, important thing. If the map is extremely slow (if it does not have the problem Desperate-kun mentioned, about weird snapping in song), then it is highly probably it will have Easy difficulty, because it is no problem to map easy diff on slow song. Such a slow song does have to have another difficulty in spread, what means normal diff. But realize, there can be song, where you map easy and normal would already contain all the notes which are in song and also would have higher settings than easy, same as distance snap, there would actually be problem you cannot map hard when you already had problem increasing difficulty to normal - You would have to overmap and increase all settings, containing DS much higher than other diffs.

Basically these songs are rare and not mapped often, but if the map has a high enough quality and it is almost impossible to map harder diff without overmapping, then it sure can get ranked. Why the heck not? You cannot say slow songs are unrankable, because some cannot be mapped in harder way without doing extreme stuff. We could even put this as ranking rule in your sense: "Songs under 100BPM are unrankable, no matter the quality, you suck and map something for rrtyui, bb, idc noob mapper." Right?
Kodora
Kodora
@Wafu, you seems to misunderstand the entire purpose of "proper diff spread" - it exist here to allow people with any skill leven enjoy songs what they wants to play. Basically, spreads like only Hard/Insane or Insane/Extra forbidded as they wouldn't satisfy people with beginner-skill level, same as only Easy/Normal spreads are forbidded as they wouldn't satisfy people with advanced-skill level. N/H spreads are minimum required as bare minimum which can satisfy everyone with any skill level.

Rest is only about mapping skill. If one have problems with mapping any kind of diffs, they are always free to ask for a guest diff or learn and improve their mapping skill by his own by modding procedure. Mappind each diff is an important thing, no matter if this Easy or Insane

If you think that it's impossible to map Hard/Insane diffs for an extremely calm songs, you are free to take a look at following examples: here, here, here, here, here - you can find much more ones just by searching at already ranked maps.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Kodora wrote:

same as only Easy/Normal spreads are forbidded as they wouldn't satisfy people with advanced-skill level. N/H spreads are minimum required as bare minimum which can satisfy everyone with any skill level.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/190284 https://osu.ppy.sh/s/173810 https://osu.ppy.sh/s/186767 ????
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
@Kodora, why do you keep on saying nonsense? EN is not unrankable and this spread can be actually enjoyed by everyone. Even pro players might like easy maps. But NH spread is not enjoyable by someone who cannot pass Normal, right? EN mapset is appropriate for anyone who just joins this game, not NH, they probably won't enjoy the map much when they will fail at the start. For example I like extremely hard maps, but sometimes, I really play easy maps and enjoy them, even the easiest diffs. Nevertheless, if you want to prove anything is possible to be mapped harder, then, show yourself on this song: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/91306 make an extra diff, I would like to see the pro like you sure are mapping an extra diff for this. I know I am worse than you, because you actually act like I am trash.

But anyway, who are you to decide what we can and cannot enjoy? Not even god could!
Kodora
Kodora
@silmarilen: they all are fine as they named N/H, icons here are not important as they aren't works perfectly at judging lowest diffs, so sometimes Hard diff on a calm songs might be technically rated as Normal, while it will plays as Hard.

@Wafu: if Normal diff is aimed to be easiest diff, it should be mapped appropriately so beginners can pass it ("easy-ish normal" in other words) - else such map would never be ranked. E/N spreads are inappropriate as they wouldn't be fine for advanced-skill players as i mentioned before.

Actually, your example is perfectly mappable for a Hard diff - again, i never said that every song requires an Extra diff, but N/H is an appropriate minimum requirement, suitable for absolute most of songs. E/N are unrankable, and I see zero reasons for changing this as every not-for-approval map should have appropriate difficulty spread.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Kodora wrote:

@silmarilen: they all are fine as they named N/H, icons here are not important as they aren't works perfectly at judging lowest diffs, so sometimes Hard diff on a calm songs might be technically rated as Normal, while it will plays as Hard.

@Wafu: if Normal diff is aimed to be easiest diff, it should be mapped appropriately so beginners can pass it ("easy-ish normal" in other words) - else such map would never be ranked. E/N spreads are inappropriate as they wouldn't be fine for advanced-skill players as i mentioned before.

Actually, your example is perfectly mappable for a Hard diff - again, i never said that every song requires an Extra diff, but N/H is an appropriate minimum requirement, suitable for absolute most of songs. E/N are unrankable, and I see zero reasons for changing this as every not-for-approval map should have appropriate difficulty spread.
How many times do I have to repeat it is not unrankable but ALLOWED by ranking criterias, (DO YOU KNOW WHAT ALLOWED MEANS?) there's no such a rule it would be bullshit. And you did not answer my question:

Wafu wrote:

who are you to decide what we can and cannot enjoy?
You just said again the same non sense... "they wouldn't be fine for advanced-skill players as i mentioned before", why do you repeat what I already said is invalid?
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,424 posts
Joined February 2011
TicClick
Could you please get back to the initial topic, which is: [Rule change] Possible approval for 4:00-5:00?

It's not going to happen, or we'll have people asking for shorter draining time approval criteria even after it's changed to four minutes. Remember when it was 6:00? All I can foresee is many single difficulty maps with forced patterns (as we don't have enough already) and no sign of balance. If the audio you chose to map lasts for less than 5 minutes, edit it, map a full appropriate spread or forget about it.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

TicClick wrote:

Could you please get back to the initial topic, which is: [Rule change] Possible approval for 4:00-5:00?

It's not going to happen, or we'll have people asking for shorter draining time approval criteria even after it's changed to four minutes. Remember when it was 6:00? All I can foresee is many single difficulty maps with forced patterns (as we don't have enough already) and no sign of balance. If the audio you chose to map lasts for less than 5 minutes, edit it, map a full appropriate spread or forget about it.
My apologizes, I shouldn't have gone so far as for that argument neither in ranking criteria forum nor any other forum, I should have kept this fight out of other's sight.

Anyway I can completely agree with your opinion, previously I said something like that. Actually when it went to 5 minutes limit, many approval maps were mapped that time. That's actually not bad, but reducing to 4 minutes would mean no full versions of map in complete spread, making an disadvantage to newbies.
Kodora
Kodora

TicClick wrote:

It's not going to happen, or we'll have people asking for shorter draining time approval criteria even after it's changed to four minutes. Remember when it was 6:00? All I can foresee is many single difficulty maps with forced patterns (as we don't have enough already) and no sign of balance. If the audio you chose to map lasts for less than 5 minutes, edit it, map a full appropriate spread or forget about it.
Well, people keep asking for lowering it only because 5 min limit haven't solved most annoying problems for long not-for-approval maps - problems with getting mods as people usually don't like modding stuff over 3 minutes, problems with mapping easier diffs as it gets annoying for stuff with very long drain time (for example mapping 4:30 min long easy usually ends up as bland 2/1 + 1/1 spam + lots of copypaste sadly) and problem with making "non-stop" diffs without any breaks or something just for the sake of achieving approve-able drain time, which ends usually as very tiring map.

Forced patters/no sigh of balance is more about actual quality of map, and, sadly, if one diff have forced patterns, making a proper diff spread for it won't fix the problem for one diff. Editing mp3 (no matter is this BPM change or extending) is a horrible solution (at least for some people, as it would be no respect for original song). Old approval criteria was about 18mln score iikr, which usually covered 3-4 min long maps -so it's pretty much understable why people keep asking for lowering required drain time for approval.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Bara-
This is one of the problems
Ok, maybe Easy is mappable, but is it fun?
As it's slow and with 1/1 and 2/1 and It'll probably also have much Copy paste
Different suggestion: Maps with 4:00-5:00 can be approved, but need multiple diffs (HI for example) for this 'short' approval
This way more people can enjoy it, without the map being to noring due to Copy Paste
Kodora
Kodora

baraatje123 wrote:

Different suggestion: Maps with 4:00-5:00 can be approved, but need multiple diffs (HI for example) for this 'short' approval
This way more people can enjoy it, without the map being to noring due to Copy Paste
Something like this?
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Bara-
Yes
But as the latter one dropped by 1 min, I think the others also can :P
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Simple story: do map at Normal Difficulty for at least four minutes, if you find the effort too high to find mods and map N/H/I spread then you guys should really rethink your intentions when you're mapping.
Rukaru
831 posts
Joined April 2012
Rukaru

baraatje123 wrote:

This is one of the problems
Ok, maybe Easy is mappable, but is it fun?
As it's slow and with 1/1 and 2/1 and It'll probably also have much Copy paste
is it fun you ask? I'd say yes. I enjoy a lot of long easy and normal diff. back then when I just started playing osu, I always want to play the full version instead of tv size. what's wrong with copy-paste? I know it is not creative using copy-paste but as long as the player enjoyed it so that doesn't matter (the player is me in this case. yes, subjective opinion). also, please take newbie into consideration. easy might be not fun and boring for you, but that's not the case for newbie.

Most of the songs can support at least three diffs, do your best and map them.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Stefan wrote:

Simple story: do map at Normal Difficulty for at least four minutes, if you find the effort too high to find mods and map N/H/I spread then you guys should really rethink your intentions when you're mapping.
^ lol the idealism ^
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
I remember this rule
"when auto scores more than 20M on a single diff, this diff is considered as for Approval."
#RIPthisrule
#RIPtag4
Oyatsu
1,909 posts
Joined December 2012
Oyatsu
With my personal idea, we can depend on BPM. Your map is over 200 BPM (include in doubling BPM for slow song) and the length of the song is over 4mins, then it could be considered to go to approval. Over 200BPM is quite difficult to map an Easy diff as well.
About for normal BPM (<200 or something around it), I think if you like that song and have an effort for it, it should be nice that you can map it completely.
How is your idea?
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Oyatsu wrote:

I do not think it is hard to map easy diff for fast song, the only thing you need is lower settings, SV, snap, using longer slider and ignoring minor sounds.
Anyway, I still see the only reason to make this rule - Laziness. I don't think it shall ever be implemented, else there barely will be full-spread mapsets..
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 66