forum

[New Guideline] About Difficulty Spread

posted
Total Posts
65
Topic Starter
Myxo
Old Text
This applies only for osu!-Standard! I don't have much experience with the other modes, so I can't tell!

I recognized that many mapsets still have problems with difficulty spreads, although they are following the current rule:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BATs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
  1. Below 1.5: Easy
  2. Below 2.25: Normal
  3. Below 3.75: Hard
  4. Below 5.25: Insane
  5. Above 5.25: Expert
The main problems I can see are:
  1. The easiest difficulty is still too difficult. This applies often when players choose not to have an Easy and just rely on a Normal | Hard | Insane-spread. For example, they use too high slider velocities, too complex rhythms or very cluttered placement, which makes the easiest difficulty of their mapset not understandable for most of the newer players.
  2. Often, players are too lazy / just don't want to have an Easy difficulty in their mapset, but they have a very difficult Insane, usually around 4.75 to 5.25 stars. Since the Normal has to be under 2 stars, they have to create a Hard difficulty around 3.25-3.75 stars for an appropriate spread. The problem with that is, that the gaps between the difficulties usually are very big then, which is also considered as a bad difficulty spread. For example, the Insane uses very much of 1/4, while the Hard doesn't use any 1/4 - It is bad, because Hard players can't prepare for the Insane difficulty then, but they can't make the Hard more difficult by adding 1/4 because in this casethe gap to Normal would be too big.
Both points are often connected to each other.

My suggestion, to prevent both issues, is a guideline (because it doesn't have to apply for all mapsets):
The diff spread should be reasonable. If your Insane difficulty's star rating is over 4.5, it is recommended to include an Easy difficulty in your mapset, so that the gaps between the difficulties won't be too big. This way, you will make your mapset accessible for every player.

I hope you understood and respect my opinion. Please, tell me what is your opinion!

The discussion in the thread went far from what I wrote here and I also don't even agree with it anymore, so it's pointless to read the above wording.
Cherry Blossom
Nobody cares about diff spread x)
But yeah it will be fine if there is an easy diff to balance a set, and which allows the mapper to be "more free" with Normal and Hard diff concerning diff spread. (he could make a harder normal/hard than a traditional one, as i always do)
Hinsvar
I agree with this. Almost, if not just all songs can have an Easy mapped on it. Might as well enforce Easy diffs to be made too, but that's another story. For this, I can see nothing I should oppose (this can really help in making better spreads for maps!), and thus I'll give this a full support. Trying to make a Normal below 2 stars usually might end up making it a little too easy anyway, and it can limit what can you usually use in a >2 star (usual) Normal diff.
riffy
I'd say it should be re-worded to somewhat like this:

The diff spread should be reasonable. Which means, that you should make your mapset playable for a wide range of players: from beginners to highly-skilled top players.

As I've heard several beginners complained about being unable to actually play some recently ranked/mapped Normal diffs with <2,00 star rating due to high slider velocity/complicated rhythm.
Topic Starter
Myxo
Thanks to all of your opinions! I basically agree with what you all have said.

-Bakari- wrote:

I'd say it should be re-worded to somewhat like this:

The diff spread should be reasonable. Which means, that you should make your mapset playable for a wide range of players: from beginners to highly-skilled top players.

As I've heard several beginners complained about being unable to actually play some recently ranked/mapped Normal diffs with <2,00 star rating due to high slider velocity/complicated rhythm.
Hmm, about your rewording. I really want to include that with the over 4.5 stars, because it applies to the mapsets we are talking about in 99% of the cases.
But I'll take something from it and change my wording, thank you <3
Zare
I actually kind of agree. Spreads tend to have giant gaps when it's a NHI set. Enforcing an Easy on sets with harder Insanes almost automatically balances the set.
Krisom
Yeah, NHI sets are kinda unbalanced :S. I also think that the Normals in these sets are far too hard for some new players, even if they are under 2.0 star rating.

Can we just enforce the fact that the easiest diff of a spread should not contain some elements like:

-Stacks
-Short spinners
-Post spinner notes
-Anti-jumps
-1/4
-Repeat sliders with over 1 repeat

And such? These things are often used in normals, but when they're used on the easiest diff it's like throwing a brick at the new players.
Cherry Blossom

Krisom wrote:

-Repeat sliders with over 1 repeat
I don't really agree with this one, because repeat sliders with over 1 repeat could be used to avoid polarity issues.
I think you mean 1/2 reversed sliders ?
riffy

Krisom wrote:

-1/4
except for low BPM songs, I think you forgot that :P

Krisom wrote:

- Short repeat sliders with over 1 repeat

Krisom wrote:

-Stacks
this is fine if used properly, I think.

Krisom's words can be added as explanation to the guideline. This might help people to improve their E/N diffs a lot.
Sonnyc
I have to agree there are problems which Desperate mentioned on current maps.

[Insane]s are becoming harder and harder, consisting 1/4 slider jumps for example. To fill the gap, [Hard] has also became intensed by adding jumps or small 1/4 notes. Then mappers strike a problem: the gap between [Normal] and [Hard]. Mappers would increase spacing or sv of [Normal] to make more harder, while keeping the 2.00 star diff, and not map an additional [Easy]. I guess this made you think there should be a guideline to enforce mappers make an [Easy], right?

But the [Normal]s which are made that way can have chances to function nicely as the easiest difficulty.
Whether or not the lowest difficulty of the map is easy enough is something what BATs should judge, and then ask the mapper to add an extra difficulty if the spread can be improved.

Assuming various possibilities, I wouldn't prefer a one size fits all rule.
Krisom
iirc, stacks have NEVER been fine for the easiest diffs. Like, ever.

And low BPM sngs as in "how low?". Because an 80 BPM song with a 1/4 is the same as a 160 BPM sng with a 1/2... ...which is still very hard for the easiest diff.

And yeah, I meant short repeat slider with over one repeat.
Aleks719

Krisom wrote:

iirc, stacks have NEVER been fine for the easiest diffs. Like, ever.

And low BPM sngs as in "how low?". Because an 80 BPM song with a 1/4 is the same as a 160 BPM sng with a 1/2... ...which is still very hard for the easiest diff.

And yeah, I meant short repeat slider with over one repeat.
they are fine.

1/2 160bpm is fine for normals (as easiest diff). pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
riffy

Aleks719 wrote:

pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
You still can use 2/1 patterns to provide some variety :P
PyaKura
And while we're at it, don't make this a general rule as it doesn't make sense for other modes (or mania as far as I know). In case this is a guideline I'm fine with it, kinda.
Yuzeyun
The spread on each mode should be as per its feeling, that is if a map feels like an easy then it's an easy. Player output should always be primordial when evaluating difficulties. Also, star rating should always be an indicator and not an acquired value to evaluate a difficulties in other modes. For example, in taiko:
I made an easy 226 BPM map lasting for 1'00, which gave me 5.00 SR
I made a hard 179BPM map, with 2000+ note streams, which in total lasts 7'14. 5.04 SR.

The last portion should tell more concisely that the mapset should be accessible for every kind of player, implicitly for every level (Newcomer to thelewa tier)

The diff spread should be reasonable. If your Insane difficulty's star rating is over 4.5, it is recommended to include an Easy difficulty in your mapset, so that the gaps between the difficulties won't be too big. This way, you will make your mapset accessible for every player.

maybe more concise that way
Aleks719

-Bakari- wrote:

Aleks719 wrote:

pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
You still can use 2/1 patterns to provide some variety :P
but... i didn't mean it...
Topic Starter
Myxo
Thanks for your opinions!

I forgot to say I am only talking about osu!-Standard, since I can't tell much about spreads on the other modes, sorry.
quiz-chan_DELETED
100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
Tari

Lizzy wrote:

100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
I don't agree with this one, it's basically banning all overmapping no matter if it fits or not. Don't get me wrong, in MOST cases it's bad but there are a few cases where overmapping is good. And Plus we all have our different views on what overmapping is. Obviously this should be considered more case by case because certain mappers (I don't want to mention any names) will get truly pissed if this happens.
Shohei Ohtani
Remember to be aware that it's not always the insane that causes problems in a map concerning diff spread :P *cough* https://osu.ppy.sh/s/102615 *cough*

To be honest, I think we don't need a new rule about this. I think BATs and player modders just need to actually look at spreads for once. Be like "Is this accessable to every player" instead of "Does this follow the arbitary rule of having an ENHIX spread"

There also needs to be definition past the star rating on what makes a good E/N/H. Right now it seems like

Insane/Extra:
Fun funfunfufnufnufnufn D:DDDD:DD:

Hard:
Insane diff with distance spacing and low SV

Normal:
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Easy:
nah

Which of course isn't very good. I don't know if we need an osu!academy video to help people understand or what, but it's important to give people the resources they need to make better spreads, instead of just getting mad at mappers for not having good enough spreads.
Kodora

Desperate-kun wrote:

The diff spread should be reasonablethe. If your Insane difficulty's star rating is over 4.5, it is recommended to include an Easy difficulty in your mapset, so that the gaps between the difficulties won't be too big. This way, you will make your mapset accessible for every player.
]
Having only insane difficulty over 4.5 stars doesn't always mean that the lowest diff would be "too hard" too - I often see maps with pretty hard insanes over 4.5 stars and acceptable enough Normal diffs. If only insane diff goes too hard and makes big gap, maybe it would be better to include second harder hard/second easier insane to cover it instead? And actually "too hard easiest diffs" can exist even in mapsets where insane goes rated below 4.5.

IMO, difficulty spread issues should be fixed case by case, and current rule already clearly says that difficulty spread should be well-designed.
xxdeathx
I'll agree because I'm getting tired of telling people in my mods that their NHI mapsets can and should have an easy only to be ignored because they're too lazy to map another TV size diff.
blissfulyoshi
I am having trouble trying to figure out what this guideline actually does. Are we trying to get a mapper to map a user defined easy diff or a diff below 1.5 stars. In other words, if I mapped a 1.9 star Easy diff, is that acceptable under this rule? Currently, what we define Easy diffs as something below 1.5 stars, but because the star system is not perfect, there are times where we can feel a 1.45 star Easy is still too difficult for a song for some people, regardless of the difficulty of the hardest diff.

Besides that, I have to agree with Kodora and CDFA that spreads should be investigated on a case by case basis if there is really an issue.
quiz-chan_DELETED

Tari wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
I don't agree with this one, it's basically banning all overmapping no matter if it fits or not. Don't get me wrong, in MOST cases it's bad but there are a few cases where overmapping is good. And Plus we all have our different views on what overmapping is. Obviously this should be considered more case by case because certain mappers (I don't want to mention any names) will get truly pissed if this happens.
I never mentioned overmapping anywhere, diffs have to be appropriately paced, that's all.

And guys, remember that this is a guideline. Of course, sets need to be investigated case by case, and the Expert difficulty thing doesn't HAVE to be applied, but should genuinely be considered. We don't force anything upon mappers with this guideline, so it's fully acceptable.
DakeDekaane
Having this guideline would confuse new mappers a lot, and we should aim for clear and brief rules/guidelines.

I agree this should be handled case by case, not every 2 stars Normal is complex, but also there are a few that rounds 1.8-1.9 that are quite complex. This is regarding about the lowest difficulties.

Also I remark that we also should look for the gaps between difficulties, specially if they're >1.2 stars, this means it's likely too high and another difficulty should be done instead modifying the existent ones.

Basically what Kodora and CDFA said, but in from my point of view :p
Irreversible
I still think that depends on the song a lot. We should just stick to the fact that a spread should be reasonable; means the easiest diff shouldn't contain really complex stuff, as well as big gaps between normal / hard or hard / insane diffs (for example, you stick to the DS on hard with few jumps, and the insane is basically only jumps).

I personally dislike mapping easies for most songs, because they just don't cover the song like I want it to be covered. Beatskipping is a sad thing..
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply