Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S

Look at the mapper.

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:

I noticed that sometimes too, but actually i don't mind. Also, i think we need maps of all kinds, so even this thing shouldn't be a problem if used well.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:

True, but sometimes the slider is visible before getting the 300. The main problem anyway, is finding maps where that works (there are a few, but yeah, i guess sometimes it's as you say)

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:

That's also true, but i don't see the problem anyway. If the mapper wants to be "mean" just let him be. Usually these things are readable anyway so the player has two choices: stop playing that map or accepting the challenge and trying again.

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:

Then let me ask WHY shouldn't this be allowed? Many maps have this feature and many of them use it well, so where's the problem?
Some users find that fun and challenging, other users hate that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed because of that.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:

LOL Usatei. Well, about that, since i'm the mapper, i can say this: that map is from more than a year ago and standards were different. I wanted to make a really hard map for approval, but linear streams were boring, so i tried that (that was my first time using that mapping technique). I put HP Drain 3 to avoid people getting killed for those streams. Also, i can't play that (and many other people can't) but actually the map IS fun (ask people, you should find some who will tell you "That map is really cruel but it's fun", i think). So again, If a mapper wants to be a asshole the player can just avoid playing those maps.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:

That's true too, and i hate that use of spinners too, but i also have to say that some maps used that thing quite well (I mean, remember Wizards in Winter? That one is still awesome). Again, that's up to the mapper. Actually, the Auto+2000 "rule" still is useless to me, imho spinner only have to be at least 100'd without problems, but that's me (yeah, i don't dislike insta-spinners, as long as they have sense).

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:

What's the problem? OK, since everyone doesn't know that and i'm getting tired of seeing that map being brought up for that reason, here's the story: xxheroxx made that map by himself, it had Easy, Normal and Hard. Then people in #italian thought the song was cool and decided to make more difficulties for that one. It went up to 8 difficulties in a bunch of days. Then, xxheroxx removed Easy and Hard because we got told that a mapset can't have more than 6 difficulties and he didn't want to remove guest difficulties.
I don't know why all difficulties turned out to be insane, but i gues that's what you want to map when you hear the song.
To get it straight, i think some songs call more for Hard and Insane, and other songs fit better with Easy and Normal. Again, as long as the map has two difficulties, i don't care which difficulties they are.
That's my opinion, i know the system is different but i really don't mind if mappers don't feel like adding Normals. I tell that to the mappers because i think adding easier difficulties should be done for common sense.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:

Again that's true and i think this is a completely different matter since it involves a whole map, not just a section o a single beat. When i mod, i often tell players to remove some custom colours that are really hard to see or to use more "regular" BGs. But again, if the mapper want to be mean and wants to leave it, i let him be. That's his own choice. About me, probabily i won't play a map like that (that's why i still haven't played Bad Apple, even though i really wanted to)

Anyway, are these kind of threads becoming a trend?
Everyone always complaining about this and that. If you don't like or you can't play a map just don't play it. I do that often right now: since i'm not good at streams/fast beats i play maps that don't abuse them (and that's a shame, because i like DJpop's maps but i always fail ç_ç)
Please, let mappers try to make something new when they map, that's how a map can become a masterpiece. I'm sure sometimes there are attempts that go failing but in that case i believe that the mapper can be quite mature to decide what to do.
If we start putting too many rules, maps will become more and more plain and boring.

When modding, try to think what the mappers wanted to do with a certain pattern. If it's really so bad, discuss that with him, don't just go and rage about that because of those rules.
Also, these are not rules, but "guidelines"

I think i said everything... If i didn't explain myself well enough, please let me know.
(Please, don't take this message as a rage or anything, it's only my opinion. I'm saying this because it seems i frequently get misunderstood in this kind of threads)

I fully agree with almost everything Card N'FoRcE said. Couldn't of said it any better~

0_o wrote:

I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ

I agree with that. At first I love KIAI time very much, I think that's cool. But I find it's hard to see notes afterwards. Especially light colors notes lol

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:

Anyway, jump could add fun to play game, but too much jumps are boring, I hate whole map jump D:
then also, somebody would like to treat it as challenge. there's nothing wrong with jump, just wish jumps could read in a short time when play

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:

I was thinking a easy diff. should has a slower slider speed, and a faster for harder diff.
high BPM maps with 2xBPM is terrible lol, like Card N'FoRcE said, someone treat they as a challenge. One thing has someone hate and someone liked, that's usual. Let players choose what they like to play.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:

I totally agree with this, short spinner is too hard, and also a note 1/4 beat to spinner is hard to hit. But some maps really use spinner well even it didn't follow 2000+ bonus rule, such as some Jame's map. Anyway, it's unable to get S, that's true.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:

If I see a black background map with black note, I would suggest mapper to change it

Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.

The things I agree on:

- Hidden sliders (although i play alot on hidden, then the problem is less visible)
- Random Jumps (depends on the timing)
- Slider speeds
- Spinner (I can't spin at all)
- Combo colors (especially annoying on my laptop.. mostly i just have to delete the background to play decently..)

Nothing really more to say.

Beuchi-chan wrote:

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore.

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S

They make sense to me :<

Maybe that's because I'm used to her style and how she uses streams when the singer holds notes instead of using sliders or spinners.

JarJarJacob wrote:

Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.

Cyclone wrote:

Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.

On a side note i feel a couple people didn't read my post very well.

Ph0X wrote:

I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].

For the jumps, I'm talking about the jumps that ARE indeed at COMPLETE random. Jumps can be fun, yes. They need to make sense though.

Spinners

i don't see a problem here. if there is a long vocal, and then a drum beat 1/4 right after the vocal, i think it's appropriate.

2000+ auto spinner is just a guideline, so i have been told by many many BATs.

Too Many Difficulties:

why would this bother anyone? the only thing that is annoying for is the modders. no one is forcing you to play all the difficulties, there is 1 difficultie that gives the most points and that is the only one you need to play. the other diffs are there for fun and for other people who likes other styles to play. it would be much more annoying if 4 different people had to upload their own mapset just because they wanted to make an insane for just that song.

Combo Colors:

this is indeed retarded

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of, especially if the song doesn't call for it.

Jumps and Spacing that doesn't move with the song can also be acceptable in my eyes if it's consistant and effictively can make a beat of its own.

Also learn to manipulate spinners if you think you really need to add a spiner during a SMALL vocal or some other rhythm and there is a beat shortly after. Honestly I make the spinner start 1/8th after the previous note instead of on the vocal tick so you have that much more time to complete it.

You can still have a hard map without anything listed in the first post, some of our best players may make it through it simply. Still, My mysterious mountain map is difficult for the vast majority of users to FC. But theres not much bullshit getting in the way directly for your completion of it.(Although personally I feel some spots feel a little awkward.)


Part of the reason I never finished my touhou collab is honestly, hito's and Neo@alex's parts were garbage. Near unreadable garabage.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/10989
Hey, look.

Also, I dislike it when mappers place notes with little to no volume for the hitsound. It makes it a lot harder to follow the rhythm. I don't know about anyone else, but it might just be me.

People just need to think, do they want their map to be hard because it's bad, or do they want it to be hard...because it's hard...

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,

I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers

strager wrote:

Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S

Look at the mapper.

Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.

Mystearica wrote:

Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.

I'm not complaining about fc'ing it or not (I actually fc'd it...) I'm just giving my opinion about it.

tbh, I think Massive Wonders is a fine map. The streams add more to the song, imo.

Ph0X wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,

I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers

osu isn't really a game that really supports hard maps without them turning to shit.

Spacing Changes: I care about consistency. If one just throws random jumps or spacing changes into a map, then it will probably play bad and just look stupid. If the spacing gradually increases or does the same thing multiple times, then sure, it's probably fine.

Hidden Sliders: I thought that these were unrankable... I played a map earlier today that had a bunch of them and it was pissing me off because they were 99% invisible.

Random Jumps: Usually depends on the map.

Slider Speeds: ^

Zig-Zag streams: oh god I hate these.

Spinners: I agree that they're really being pushed. Sometimes I'll be modding a map in editor, a fast spinner will come up, and it's so ridiculous that I bet myself that it has NO bonus, let alone 1000 or 2000. Then I'll check it in test mode, see that it's 2000 bonus, and facepalm.

Too Many Difficulties: I don't have a problem with multiple hards/insanes as long as there's ALSO a spread of other difficulties. Easy/Normal/2 Hard/2 Insane would be fine with me.

Combo Colors: Everyone needs to use their eyes and brains for this one. If it looks hard-to-read, then it most likely IS and should be pointed out and changed. Hard-to-see combo colors should be unrankable.

I'd like to add something on Zig-Zag streams:
It seems like almost everyone hates them, and so do I, but it's because they are extremly hard and I can't do them.
Though, at slower BPMs, they are really fun (not sure if the ones in Whip the Blip count, but there's the one in Bulletproof)
Thing is, it seems like as soon as something is too hard for us, we suddently give up, but that's not the way of going. How did we all get better at streams? How did we all get better at jumps? This is the same, if we start playing zigzag streams, our muscle memory will get used to it and we will also master that.

Ofcourse, there's a limit speed, and right now some of the zigzag stream are way past out skill level, which is why they are aweful, but if we start putting 1/4@130-150 bpm and slowly work it up from there, we could maybe master that too. Thing is, if the difficulty of the zigzag stream matches the overall difficulty of the map, I don't see what the problem is.

Also, I know this is not part of the discussion, but at lower BPM on longer streams, zigzags help me alot of stamina and not going off beat.

EDIT:

This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.

Very legit way of adding difficulty to the map. I don't see why one way should be accepted and another shouldn't? This whole thread is pretty much discriminating some techniques to makes a map harder, even though to me they seem as legit as any other one. It seems that you are just too used to the others to be able to accept these newer stuff.

I can't fully comment on this til tomorrow but one thing I can definitely agree on, COMBO COLORS.

I won't even play a song if it has background colors and hit circles so similar its impossible to see. Add kiai timing on it, I'll probably end up rating that map a 1, idgaf about how good the map is. I also hate skins that are SO heavy. So much shit everywhere and everything is so large. Not really a problem (seeing as how you can just delete them) but I just wanted to rage about that too.

You know what, I can't read anything you say anymore, ph0x. Days after I've started this thread you've STILL failed to realize why I have issues about anything I listed. You assume it's because I can't do these patterns, or that I don't like difficulty. If that's the case you obviously haven't seen me play. I have pride in my ability to read AND play these sorts of things. That is NOT the point. What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY. ANYBODY can make a difficult map. It'd probably take me about 20 minutes, and I'm a REALLY slow mapper. The more people actually make maps for the sake of being difficult, the closer we move to how something like Stepmania got. People make charts in that game with every note at least 2 arrows, and in AT LEAST 1/4 beat (16th note) streams. Before you even TRY to argue against me on that point, my keyboard wouldn't even ALLOW me to play those sort of charts.


Now that I've got that out of my system, if you actually DO actually know where I'm coming from, I'd be more than happy to start discussing such things again.

I try my best putting myself in your position, and I also know very well about your skills and abilities, but I still fail to get this line

What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY.

Either one of us is not being openminded (said without irony/sarcasm/etc), or we are completly not understanding eachother.

Well MY point is, YOUR view of quality is different from other peoples, and things you might consider "bad" might be "good" for other people. Of course, this turns this entire discussion into a matter of preference, which is why I've been trying to say that we need to take the likes and dislikes of MULTIPLE people (BATs and maybe MATs too), put them together and make some sort of average compromise that will please as many as possible. Because you may have seen in this thread, people agree and disagree on almost every one of the points.

Alright, i can live with that. It just seemed like your view was something along the line of "Anything that is difficult is good," especially after you defended hard to see combo colors (in irc chat) BECAUSE it makes things harder.

At least you have someone to argue the opposite viewpoint instead of having one sided complaints. Personally I don't like anything that really is a way to cheat you out of a completion or FC. It's more difficult but id rather play a song I can flow with. Of course, to some people it's boring. I just think high end players should make their own high end maps, and stop giving them shit about it.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Heads up: Let's make every map look the same and therefore rankable!

Golden idea.

Seriously what is this shit? No offense to Cyclone or anybody else, but really this is not how you should be dictating mappers IMHO.

I believe ztrot has raised the issue as well to no avail, so I'm going to have to ask this:

WHY THE HELL IS ZTROT'S CONCERNS BEING DISMISSED?

Get the fuck out kid.

That's not the point. The point is, there needs to be a line between creativity and just hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I threw notes on a map whats a song.

Unfortunately, what's interpreted as "fitting the song" is fairly subjective.

Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.

Also dark on dark and light on light is a concept you will be taught in ANY art or media class. So fucking make sure your combo colors are distinct from your background. Even still you have whiners complain that it restricts creativity and shit.

Need a hug?

Get out kid?



By the way, small things like combo colors are fine, but this whole thread is becoming a "I can't SS this so don't give me this" type of shit, so no I'm not going to "get the fuck out kid."

Sorry.

Can you read.

Can you not be a retard.

Add in emo while I'm at it.

I thought it would be kind gesture to inform you you're missing the point. But I guess you're going to continue making an ass of yourself. Also from the vagueness of your argument, me screaming into my microphone and making a 5 star beatmap of it with absolutely no thought put into the note spacing and placement, Is a good map, and anyone who hates it just isnt good enough to like it. So I kindly ask you put a little more thought into your posts before putting down others or be prepared to explain yourself.

Go ahead and gather up your fail troll buddies to support you, you aren't doing a good enough job holding your own.

So are you going to propose a more convincing argument or are you just going to make personal attacks.

The definition of trolling must have changed.

Could people just, shut up ?

Gather what's left of your honor and discuss the question instead of going at each others' throats.

Also, almost done with my analysis. Posting later tonight or tomorrow, if I don't have to do some mundane task for class.

We are discussing the question.

I think there's no issue other than minor things like combo colors, those I can agree with. But other than that, to me this whole thread is pretty much a "don't put down shit I can't SS otherwise your map sucks" kind of rant thread.

But someone decided it's a personal matter so yeah shit happens.

I'm sorry your insulting of everyone in this topic came down to a personal matter.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11384

00:42:225 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)

Jumps like these should be unrankable. What fucking purpose to they serve. I really want to know. I can understand jump increases during impact points. I can understand a gradual increase in spacing during a rising point in a song. I have done both.

But the song is fucking hitting a small low and THEN you get jumps?

You call those jumps?

Hah.

I would never call those jumps. Not for a second.

And I think that's where part of the problem lies...

Arbitrary increase in spacing nonetheless. My opinion on them is that people who can complete things like that wont miss them when they are gone, and those who don't like them...well they will be able to like the map more.

can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input