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[Rule] Someone competent ability-wise must test/mod a map.

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Topic Starter
jesse1412
Rather than focusing solely on the technical side of mapping, maps should be tested for how well they play. Complex maps should be modded regarding how well they play by a player fitting the maps target demographic. For example a complex insane difficulty should be tested by someone deemed "competent" at playing it to ensure that no parts of the maps have unrecognized, obscure areas.

The reason to have a "competent" player test the map is to ensure the mapper knows of any issues play wise. It's hard to deny that some ranked (albeit more difficult) maps have had issues that seem to have been unrecognized or ignored completely. By having a "competent" player test the maps these issues can be noticed and weeded out. Sometimes it seems that maps are ranked despite playing awfully; the entire ranking process is designed around making a quality beatmap, there is no reason that a map that plays badly should be accepted when one that is made technically bad is not. a bad map play wise is as bad as a technically flawed map.

It's also important to note that this rule would apply to complex maps specifically. The definition of a complex map and a competent player are debatable and hence this rule should be enforced when suggested by a BAT before bubbling maps to avoid it causing issues during the qualification stage. To avoid disagreement the rule should be called upon whenever a BAT feels that a map is strange or difficult enough to warrant a "competent mod".

Realistically when spotting maps that require "competent mods" and when choosing competent players, common sense should be used. This rule is to avoid maps getting ranked that haven't been tested by the people ranking them because they cannot play them. Leaving a rule like this down to subjectivity should not be an issue, there is no reason to decline a "competent mod" and if a "competent mod" is needed it should be obvious to at least one of the BATs involved in the ranking process of the map that it should be called for.

In my opinion "competent players" must NOT be the mapper themselves (it is often very difficulty to notice the flaws in your own map that other people may find in which case the entire rule becomes pointless).

Note the mod itself should not be a set in stone "change this or you can't rank your map" kind of thing but it should weigh heavily into the moderation process.
ColdTooth
this isn't a bad idea

Maybe the creator has to atleast S it? Or A atleast. (but I would break that rule alot so maybe ignore that)

But eh, it's a good idea, it's always helpful to get atleast 3 people who can play it and get an S.
Garven
This is what should be happening with the modding process anyway. Try joining the modding process instead of trying to add redundant rules if you think things aren't working right.
Topic Starter
jesse1412

Garven wrote:

This is what should be happening with the modding process anyway. Try joining the modding process instead of trying to add redundant rules if you think things aren't working right.
I have posted in pretty much every "difficult" map I can find that appears to have a chance at rank (I miss some obviously). I try to get people to send me maps that are hard and going for ranked status. I don't see why I should lone crusade to ensure play quality for harder maps is top notch, I shouldn't do the job of the moderation process alone simply because no one else gets called to test a map who is capable.

The entire point of this rule is that this DOESN'T happen during the modding process a lot of the time. If it SHOULD happen and it DOESN'T happen then there is no harm in it being a rule. It would simply force something that should happen to happen.
Garven
I still don't see how this will change anything for the better. Basically you're trying to elevate someone to the level of BAT without actually becoming one. Just by being a good player suddenly makes you able to judge a difficult map? I think not. Most "good" players that I have asked feedback from have zero sense when it comes to that aspect and will pretty much judge anything that is super-hard as fun regardless of good mapping practice. If you're trying to find these good players to be judging maps... get them to become BATs and help out with things then their opinion will actually carry some weight.

This rule proposition seems like a pointless extra step - especially when you put in the condition that it doesn't need to be followed. Since you're not familiar with what goes on in the modding process, let me throw this one thing out there that will effectively invalidate this entire idea: most mappers will never change things unless you tell them it won't be ranked without it.

Even if it does go through, how do you propose these people will be selected and managed? It seems like they would be an entirely new team of people to train and manage for very little, if any, gain.
Vuelo Eluko

ColdTooth wrote:

this isn't a bad idea

Maybe the creator has to atleast S it? Or A atleast. (but I would break that rule alot so maybe ignore that)

But eh, it's a good idea, it's always helpful to get atleast 3 people who can play it and get an S.
i refuse the notion that any map that gets ranked needs to be FCable by definition.
thats become the standard but it shouldn't be.

Garven wrote:

Even if it does go through, how do you propose these people will be selected and managed? It seems like they would be an entirely new team of people to train and manage for very little, if any, gain.
maps staying unranked just because theyre too hard for BATs wont happen as often. thats one of many decent gains. [rip tenshi] and harder maps being modded into playing better will be more commonplace, because like jesse said, you can only make a map so smooth to play from just seeing it in the editor.
Ephemeral
good player != good modder

This is an implicit part of the ranking process and greater efforts are being made to address the ability discrepancy in moddingv2, which will arrive sometime soon. Nonetheless, a skilled modder will be able to discern problematic parts of a map even if they are unable to play it themselves.

We could expand this internally to encompass designating the BAT with high-level play abilities to the more complex maps in order to aid in providing the proper perspective needed for the map, though. I don't think this is something that the RC can really help with as it stands now.
Krisom

Ephemeral wrote:

a skilled modder will be able to discern problematic parts of a map even if they are unable to play it themselves.
Same with skilled mappers. Actually, right now I'm not playing in the computer I used to play before, and I don't have a good mouse either, so I can barely play the game (Also, being absent for over a year greatly reduced my playskill).

However, I still can map and mod as I used to. If either I as a mapper or I as a modder were asked to FC or even pass an Insane right now, no maps would be ranked.

Also this

Garven wrote:

most mappers will never change things unless you tell them it won't be ranked without it.
Here was I hoping this had changed while I was gone :(
ErunamoJAZZ
I think it's an unnecessary rule. The ranking criteria say:
Make sure that you can pass each difficulty in your mapset. Continually test-playing your map is one of the best ways to spot mistakes and correct issues.
This guideline is not enough?
Vuelo Eluko

ErunamoJAZZ wrote:

I think it's an unnecessary rule. The ranking criteria say:
Make sure that you can pass each difficulty in your mapset. Continually test-playing your map is one of the best ways to spot mistakes and correct issues.
This guideline is not enough?

jesus1412 wrote:

In my opinion "competent players" must NOT be the mapper themselves (it is often very difficulty to notice the flaws in your own map that other people may find in which case the entire rule becomes pointless).
ErunamoJAZZ
Well, in that case, you could add a sentence to read:
...It's a good idea to ask for testplay of other players...
I really do not see the need for the rule, because this seems to me something natural in the mapping, when I do an "experiment" on a map, always looking for someone to play it, always depending on the level. And do not think I'm the only one who does.
PyaKura
Pointless rule. The mapper is the only one able to judge whether a mod is satisfying or not. Nothing prevents you to ignore a mod if you feel it doesn't provide what you'd expect from a "real" mod (<-- that is, depending from the mapper's pov. I know I'd ignore most mods not explaining why they'd change a pattern like this to that without giving a reason, as short as it might be).

It all comes down to the mapper to find "good"/"competent" players and modders.

Everyone's got the right to mod as they like, being useful or not. Then it's your work to choose whether to apply it or not. Don't ask for the impossible. :|
Loctav
We could expand this internally to encompass designating the BAT with high-level play abilities to the more complex maps in order to aid in providing the proper perspective needed for the map, though. I don't think this is something that the RC can really help with as it stands now.
I would more go for like that certain BATs that are clearly unable to testplay maps on their own shall stop ranking the most insane shit on this planet. They usually do ask high level players to testplay and yet these players have no idea of what they are evaluating
I'd more like persuade that unskilled BATs should step aside from maps they can not pass or play it in a satisfying way and leave it to those who can. If they want to deal with harder maps, they have to learn to play.

This rule self is pointless, yet I want to consider this as a good approach to do an internal change.
ProgrammerSocks
Even if it won't be "official", there's nothing stopping a group of competent players from existing. You could always form some sort of "good players' union" to help make sure things meet realistic standards, rather than being purely theoretical. Just make a thread where anyone can point you to relevant maps, and make sure the appropriate people are keeping an eye on things.

If it ends up working well, the BATs might even start referring to that team themselves for help, assuming the opinion of non-BATs can carry weight in their eyes.
winber1
Every once in a while it really does help to have skilled players to play a map to get some input on specific parts of a map I would say, but these cases where these players become a near necessity is very rare. What Garven said is right, that most skilled players don't know what to say to improve maps nor do they even map, and usually all we are looking for is usually whether something is readable or not (when we ask competent players to test it). Generally they don't understand or can't really say much about the spacing, flow, and pattern structure.

To that extent is the most having this rule can truly do I would say. Looks more like a guideline to me, if anything at all. Competent player testing only adds an extra layer of polishing that shows that your map appeals (or not) to the target audience.

On the flipside though, it's not like having a small group of these people is hard to manage. If we did make a small group of competent players, we could just give them no admin rights but just the nominal rights to be in the group. People could just ask them in-game/forum pm and considering that just test playing doesn't take very long, it isn't a big struggle for time either for these players.

Having a rule that one of these players needs to check a map may seem a little unnecessary though.
Sieg
Some difficulties is kinda miss mods\suggestions from target audience not only on top tier that's true. Rule is really great but I don't believe this can work in current system.
Topic Starter
jesse1412
The argument that a good player isn't a necessarily a good modder is true, but they have more idea about playability than someone who can't even play the map. Don't overrate these players as "BAT level"; they do not rank maps; they do not bubble and they do not deny a map from being ranked. The job of these players would simply be to help a mapper make choices about playability that other people can not even understand themselves because they can't play it.

Garven wrote:

If you're trying to find these good players to be judging maps... get them to become BATs and help out with things then their opinion will actually carry some weight.
If it's this simple to just become a BAT then sign me up, the point is, it's not. If your truly believe that a BAT who can't even get a C on a map with nofail has any more knowledge about how well a map plays simply because they're a BAT then there's some massive flaw in your logic from my prospective. Technical quality and playing quality are two very separate things in my eyes.

PyaKura wrote:

Pointless rule. The mapper is the only one able to judge whether a mod is satisfying or not. Nothing prevents you to ignore a mod if you feel it doesn't provide what you'd expect from a "real" mod (<-- that is, depending from the mapper's pov. I know I'd ignore most mods not explaining why they'd change a pattern like this to that without giving a reason, as short as it might be).

It all comes down to the mapper to find "good"/"competent" players and modders.

Everyone's got the right to mod as they like, being useful or not. Then it's your work to choose whether to apply it or not. Don't ask for the impossible. :|
Well at least give them a mod from the people who will play their maps rather than leaving the mapper unaware of any issues.

Loctav wrote:

We could expand this internally to encompass designating the BAT with high-level play abilities to the more complex maps in order to aid in providing the proper perspective needed for the map, though. I don't think this is something that the RC can really help with as it stands now.
I would more go for like that certain BATs that are clearly unable to testplay maps on their own shall stop ranking the most insane shit on this planet. They usually do ask high level players to testplay and yet these players have no idea of what they are evaluating
I'd more like persuade that unskilled BATs should step aside from maps they can not pass or play it in a satisfying way and leave it to those who can. If they want to deal with harder maps, they have to learn to play.

This rule self is pointless, yet I want to consider this as a good approach to do an internal change.
This is actually very fair, if the BATs evaluating the map for ranking can actually play it and test it first hand then I see no issue with them ranking it. The issue is that said "competent" BATs may not want or have time to look at every insane map ever that gets ranked. The idea with this rule would be to allow other BATs to ensure playing quality without making the already lengthy modding process too much longer.

I think it's fair to say that not all top players know what they're talking about mapping wise, but to say that they can't recognize areas of a map which play bad is kind of pushing it. Internal BAT alterations would indeed solve this entire request assuming there are enough "competent" BATs available to readily mod these maps.
those

Garven wrote:

most mappers will never change things unless you tell them it won't be ranked without it.

Loctav wrote:

We could expand this internally to encompass designating the BAT with high-level play abilities to the more complex maps in order to aid in providing the proper perspective needed for the map, though. I don't think this is something that the RC can really help with as it stands now.
I would more go for like that certain BATs that are clearly unable to testplay maps on their own shall stop ranking the most insane shit on this planet. They usually do ask high level players to testplay and yet these players have no idea of what they are evaluating
I'd more like persuade that unskilled BATs should step aside from maps they can not pass or play it in a satisfying way and leave it to those who can. If they want to deal with harder maps, they have to learn to play.

This rule self is pointless, yet I want to consider this as a good approach to do an internal change.
Yes, this sounds more and more like an internal problem. Stop being so lenient.
Maeglwn

those wrote:

Yes, this sounds more and more like an internal problem. Stop being so lenient.
the hell? no it's not, this thread has gone way off

this is for ALL modders, not just BATs, not just internal people, etc.

I like the way Garven put it: this should be the way it's working already, there's no point in making a rule based around it

jesus1412 wrote:

This is actually very fair, if the BATs evaluating the map for ranking can actually play it and test it first hand then I see no issue with them ranking it. The issue is that said "competent" BATs may not want or have time to look at every insane map ever that gets ranked. The idea with this rule would be to allow other BATs to ensure playing quality without making the already lengthy modding process too much longer.

I think it's fair to say that not all top players know what they're talking about mapping wise, but to say that they can't recognize areas of a map which play bad is kind of pushing it. Internal BAT alterations would indeed solve this entire request assuming there are enough "competent" BATs available to readily mod these maps.
there's almost no way this will ever be the case. BATs are busy enough as it is, the team would have to expand a massive amount in order to always mod everybody's map at any whim, and even then it would still be a load of work. just look for good players who are also good at modding, they aren't THAT hard to find
Topic Starter
jesse1412

Maeglwn wrote:

those wrote:

Yes, this sounds more and more like an internal problem. Stop being so lenient.
the hell? no it's not, this thread has gone way off

this is for ALL modders, not just BATs, not just internal people, etc.

I like the way Garven put it: this should be the way it's working already, there's no point in making a rule based around it

jesus1412 wrote:

This is actually very fair, if the BATs evaluating the map for ranking can actually play it and test it first hand then I see no issue with them ranking it. The issue is that said "competent" BATs may not want or have time to look at every insane map ever that gets ranked. The idea with this rule would be to allow other BATs to ensure playing quality without making the already lengthy modding process too much longer.

I think it's fair to say that not all top players know what they're talking about mapping wise, but to say that they can't recognize areas of a map which play bad is kind of pushing it. Internal BAT alterations would indeed solve this entire request assuming there are enough "competent" BATs available to readily mod these maps.
there's almost no way this will ever be the case. BATs are busy enough as it is, the team would have to expand a massive amount in order to always mod everybody's map at any whim, and even then it would still be a load of work. just look for good players who are also good at modding, they aren't THAT hard to find
What. Did you read anything? During the ranking process the BAT that would normally rank the map would call for a player of competent skill to mod the map to locate areas that do not play well. Posting "get a competent mod" and waiting a day or 2 instead of insta-bubbling a map will not create them "a load of work". Quite frankly if you mean that the fact that they would have to play the map would create to much work then I think there's a problem, to rank any map without getting it tested by someone trusted or playing it yourself is absurd. A play takes 2 mins usually, how does that create such an immense work load?
Loctav

Maeglwn wrote:

I like the way Garven put it: this should be the way it's working already, there's no point in making a rule based around it
This is pure Idealism. Idealism has always been an excuse here to turn a blind eye on flaws. Saying "it SHOULD be like that already" actually implies that it IS NOT and therefore needs to be set in stone, at least internally. For sure this entire shit goes for every modder tosome degree, yet do not forget that at the end of the day, a BAT ranks or bubbles this and ultimatively push a ranking forward, that should not be pushed. If some noobs mod big black, well okay. Happens. You know. They mod, they tried to help. Seems fine. But they do not judge finally about the beatmap and rank it technically. Therefore the only point where it turns out to be a MUST is at the BAT end, nowhere else.

Maeglwn wrote:

there's almost no way this will ever be the case. BATs are busy enough as it is, the team would have to expand a massive amount in order to always mod everybody's map at any whim, and even then it would still be a load of work. just look for good players who are also good at modding, they aren't THAT hard to find
You are too new in the staff to judge this, trust me. This statement is so void in so many ends. How busy are the BATs? I know how much busy they are and i appreciate their work. But I am sick of a few that rank and bubble any stuff without really playing it. I recently played the newly ranked maps and I really wondered, if they did let an ape testplay it. If you want to be a good modder, you do also need to be at least a decent player. I do not expect you to pass the big black, if you want to mod it. But you should be at least able to perform the patterns by itself in order to evaluate, if they work or not. At the end of the day, this is a game. And a game should be played. And how do you know, if game elements play good, if you never really played them? I can understand that you might want to rank stuff that you do not can play perfectly or like acceptable, but if you are like a player who can barely survive a Hard, how are you supposed to evaluate an Insane? For example, mania, taiko and ctb live from testplays, every BAT in these game modes, especially the mode specific BATs (e.g. PROGUY, ExPew, Deif, Drafura, MMzz, Tasha, Love, OnosakiHito) are all on the top notch of playing skills, most of them all around the top 500-1000 of their game mode. We have a few BATs that are abyss-like bad at standard and still want to mod and map it. I never understood that. Some of them do good, but it also turned out as entire crap several times already. At the very end, they might rank stuff they could not figure out to simply play like a bunch of bullcrap, just because the mapper called it "art".

I'll try to push a internal regulation regarding this forward. Anyways, this rule will never happen, since it's the wrong way to fix the issue, which is anyways present.
Denied.
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