Hareimu wrote:

why are people catastrophizing and playing ignorance to the current state so badly

tatatat wrote:

Yes… but playing those difficulties as a rain level player isn’t enjoyable. Because the play will end up in the garbage. Less experienced players will make more mistakes, gets compounded over longer drain times. Miss ONCE, your play is cooked

complain about that to the people handling the pp system then, not to us lmfao
what does that have to do with the proposal

You brought it up 🤷‍♂️ I believe thats the reason why engagement is low for those types of maps.

tatatat wrote:

Hareimu wrote:

tatatat wrote:

edit: As a player I would love to play rain marathons, if the gamemode actually supported it.

might i kindly point you towards the absolute entirety of 5 minute long rains available today?

iscariot no sakebi, paranoid lost, go 4 it, i could go on

Yes… but playing those difficulties as a rain level player isn’t enjoyable. Because the play will end up in the garbage. Less experienced players will make more mistakes, gets compounded over longer drain times. Miss ONCE, your play is cooked

But this has nothing to do with this proposal then? Are you saying we shouldn't rank any low difficulty marathons because no one at that level can consistently play that difficulty for too long anyways? Doesn't this proposal only help this argument because "now those maps aren't made"?

Edit: also playing doesn't have to all be about pp... Why should a map be useless if it doesn't give you any pp? Isn't that just your way of playing?

tatatat wrote:

You brought it up 🤷‍♂️ I believe thats the reason why engagement is low for those types of maps.

and that equates to the gamemode not supporting longer rains how...?

players are also lazy too you know, if they dont wanna play a 3-4 minute rain thats entirely their choice, and for the record those are actually worth more pp than shorter ones because the same level of difficulty patterning-wise extends across a longer draintime, inherently increasing the difficulty compared to a 2 minute map of the same bpm and same general difficulty

for the record if its any precedent, osu standard is getting their pp system changed to no longer scale pp on misses at lower/higher combo counter, so there's nothing stopping that same change from coming to the way catch's system functions

Unlike osu!standard, osu!catch can get lower difficulties from converts, so if players want to learn the game, “not having lower diffs” will not be a problem. There are already plenty of lower diffs in this game that accumulated since 2013, and most ctb players will agree that in order to learn basic dash control and platter control, converts do a better job than most cups and salads.

Look at the people online for ctb. The most active player rank range is definitely the 3 digits, despite the fact that there are more people that are 4 digit. Going lower into ranks (aka. 5,6 digit territory), the people who play lower diffs such as cups or salads are almost non-existent. From my years of talking to new players, most players who play ctb go through the following:

Play osu!std -> try ctb through converts -> play converts-> try platters and rains-> improve. I can certainly say that majority of players will not spend much time in the lower difficulties, and I find it odd that people are this concerned about not having lower diffs. Focus more on the player base that plays this game. Give them more content. This is not elitism; it’s focusing and giving back to the players who keep this game alive. There are plentiful ways for new players to learn the game rather than playing cups and salads.

Tldr; good point secre. I agree with your proposal.

hareimus poetry goes hard

also as a player i don't care how it is achieved, but i'd love to see more maps in that range as the 2min or 5min nm gacha is getting annoying

so +1

ps secre plz fix pp

Love this proposal, we have so few short 8*+ in general compared to marathons like you said already.

I don't think it would neglect lower difficulties since we have a good chunk of mappers that like to focus on lower difficulties, and we do already have a lot of lower diffs so I don't see the issue.

+1

GiGas wrote:

Unlike osu!standard, osu!catch can get lower difficulties from converts, so if players want to learn the game, “not having lower diffs” will not be a problem. There are already plenty of lower diffs in this game that accumulated since 2013, and most ctb players will agree that in order to learn basic dash control and platter control, converts do a better job than most cups and salads.

I don't think converts between one gamemode and another fully come to be relevant to this because then a similar argument can be made for standard converts into osu!mania, and trust me newer mania players dont get started on the game by playing converts

the reason why newer catch players dont play cups and salads as much is bc the two are oftentimes, and pardon the phrasing, fucking boring to play
and i say this as both a player and mapper of them that has engaged with both difficulty levels since i started playing the game, it's incredibly clear that both difficulty levels are stagnant af bc they lack the spice and slight unpredictability converts can offer (aka cups dont introduce simple dashes, salads dont introduce simple hyperdashes, etc etc)

but thats a completely different topic for another day

fact of the matter is those two difficulties are and will continue to be mapped into the foreseeable future even if this proposal passes bc theres people who enjoy making them and people who enjoy playing them, so people arguing against it from that front are being deliberately contrarian lol

About time you finally proposed this lol

i dont really see any issue with this proposal

nothing is being removed, they are just additions to the existing current ranking criteria
cups and salads aren't going away.. this proposal just makes it easier to shift the focus from the abundance of cups/salads we already have to more longer and higher sr maps, when there is barely anything in that case

some people enjoy playing and mapping lower difficulties and that's completely okay, but it's not like lower difficulties are gonna be completely gone from most spreads.

it does not take long for a player to get out of the cup and salad difficulty, and even then if those do "run out" (which they won't) you still have converts that play like specifics as Mniam said.

as Secre stated, it only gets better if this proposal gets added, as many maps are able to be ranked now with this new proposal, it is extremely annoying to have to make multiple difficulties of a map that is just below the drain time criteria

tl;dr: thank u secre

+1

@Hareimu

I believe that mania and CTB converts serve a different purpose. Osu! Mania players typically come into the game with prior mania experience, as compared to CTB where it's a whole new game mode you have to learn. Mania converts typically play bad (from my understanding) meanwhile CTB converts in earlier stages serve a good purpose (As mentioned earlier, dash control and platter placement skills are better learned from playing converts). I think this point is relevant to this topic as from the general gist of people who disagree with Secre's proposal, they are saying that cups and salads as basically essential for new players to learn the game, which I disagree with.

But you are right about the fact that this is a topic for a different day. We both agree that this proposal is good and I think that's all it matters for now.

I agree with this proposal. I think the new players have enough maps. We need more high sr maps that aren't systematically marathons.

Otherwise, if a set doesn't have enough low difficulties, 80% of the time, you can go and get the convert of the same music with simpler difficulties.

+1

i cant play anything past high 6* cuz noob so i hate endgame mapping but if this means i can make iix sets or ixx then thats probably a good thing


low diffs in catch are fake. alot of ppl including myself only play this gamemode because i was interested in osu standard and i clicked around and saw my converted maps can be played in a fruit catching minigame

Passion mapping
+1

yeah this is extremely benefical. in this instance, it's much easier to focus on quality then rather than quantity especially for higher star rating maps which require a lot of tedious mapping and rhythm selection

+1

This will brought a lot more pros than cons and I do think that the cons is very small, I support this change

+1

i like hard maps

+1

To those saying there will be less star-rated difficulties; let's do some calculations!

I have 99%-100% of ranked catch maps, so I will be using "~" since I'm not claiming it to be 100% accurate due to osu being weird with it's database showing maps. However, it's probably 99.9% accurate nonetheless.

Now that I have that out of the way, here are the numbers.

Below 1 Star: 32~
1 Star: 1,603~
2 Stars: 1,989~
3 Stars: 1,608~
4 Stars: 1,503~
5 Stars: 1,079~
6 Stars: 473~
7 Stars: 166~
8 Stars: 63~
9 Stars: 24~
10 Stars: 6~
11 Stars: 1~

Total ranked maps: 8,547~

Now, there are 7,814~ ranked maps that are 5.99 stars or LESS, accounting for 91.4%~ of all ranked maps.

This means that generally speaking, you can play all the way up to beginner overdose maps being 5 stars and you have 91% of the content of the ranked map section.

Want to play 6 stars and above? Now you can only play 8.6% of the total ranked section.

6 star maps generally give you 400 - 699~ pp, depending on drain time and if it's closer to 7 stars.

Want to be a top 100 player? You basically play 7 stars or above; more often than not, more like 7.5 and above. For simplicity sake though, let's just go with 7 stars.
That totals to 262~ ranked beatmaps in total; equating to a THREE PERCENT.
3%.~

Let's now do some more calculations. Let us now include the parameter "length<=210" meaning, all songs now shown are going to be 3 minutes and 30 seconds or less.
We will also show the percentage difference from the total number.

Below 1 Star: 31~; -3%~
1 Star: 1,542~; -4%~
2 Stars: 1,854~; -7%~
3 Stars: 1,349~; -16%~
4 Stars: 1,173~; -22%~
5 Stars: 756~; -30%~
6 Stars: 256~; -46%~
7 Stars: 68~; -61%~
8 Stars: 13~; -80%~
9 Stars: 9~; -62%~
10 Stars: 2~; -66%~
11 Stars: 0~; -100%~

So what does this tell us? the numbers show the second we get to 7 stars and above, on average, you lose about 73.8% of maps, and if we take out the one 11 star map, you lose about 67.25% of maps on average.
What is 67% of 262? 175 beatmaps lost, bringing that grand total of maps of 7 stars and above that are less than 3 minutes and 30 seconds long to 87 beatmaps!

Wow. 87 beatmaps, (well 87 - the one 11 star so 86). There are literally less than 100 beatmaps that are shorter than 3 and half minutes. Sounds like a lot of fun to farm in the endgame ranked section!

All this to say, this is why there needs to be a change. There is a a MASSIVE disparity between the amount of ranked maps of higher star rating beatmaps and 5 star and lower.

+1.

edit: 7 stars and above that are equal or less than 3:30 have 92 in total.

glad someone took the time to gather the hard numbers to depict the scene as it is instead of speaking out of their ass

thank you

Who needs low diffs when you have 2 star converts.

Swag Change.

+1

Trent wrote:

To those saying there will be less star-rated difficulties; let's do some calculations!

I have 99%-100% of ranked catch maps, so I will be using "~" since I'm not claiming it to be 100% accurate due to osu being weird with it's database showing maps. However, it's probably 99.9% accurate nonetheless.

Now that I have that out of the way, here are the numbers.

Below 1 Star: 32~
1 Star: 1,603~
2 Stars: 1,989~
3 Stars: 1,608~
4 Stars: 1,503~
5 Stars: 1,079~
6 Stars: 473~
7 Stars: 166~
8 Stars: 63~
9 Stars: 24~
10 Stars: 6~
11 Stars: 1~

Total ranked maps: 8,547~

Now, there are 7,814~ ranked maps that are 5.99 stars or LESS, accounting for 91.4%~ of all ranked maps.

This means that generally speaking, you can play all the way up to beginner overdose maps being 5 stars and you have 91% of the content of the ranked map section.

Want to play 6 stars and above? Now you can only play 8.6% of the total ranked section.

6 star maps generally give you 400 - 699~ pp, depending on drain time and if it's closer to 7 stars.

Want to be a top 100 player? You basically play 7 stars or above; more often than not, more like 7.5 and above. For simplicity sake though, let's just go with 7 stars.
That totals to 262~ ranked beatmaps in total; equating to a THREE PERCENT.
3%.~

Let's now do some more calculations. Let us now include the parameter "length<=210" meaning, all songs now shown are going to be 3 minutes and 30 seconds or less.
We will also show the percentage difference from the total number.

Below 1 Star: 31~; -3%~
1 Star: 1,542~; -4%~
2 Stars: 1,854~; -7%~
3 Stars: 1,349~; -16%~
4 Stars: 1,173~; -22%~
5 Stars: 756~; -30%~
6 Stars: 256~; -46%~
7 Stars: 68~; -61%~
8 Stars: 13~; -80%~
9 Stars: 9~; -62%~
10 Stars: 2~; -66%~
11 Stars: 0~; -100%~

So what does this tell us? the numbers show the second we get to 7 stars and above, on average, you lose about 73.8% of maps, and if we take out the one 11 star map, you lose about 67.25% of maps on average.
What is 67% of 262? 175 beatmaps lost, bringing that grand total of maps of 7 stars and above that are less than 3 minutes and 30 seconds long to 87 beatmaps!

Wow. 87 beatmaps, (well 87 - the one 11 star so 86). There are literally less than 100 beatmaps that are shorter than 3 and half minutes. Sounds like a lot of fun to farm in the endgame ranked section!

All this to say, this is why there needs to be a change. There is a a MASSIVE disparity between the amount of ranked maps of higher star rating beatmaps and 5 star and lower.

+1.

edit: 7 stars and above that are equal or less than 3:30 have 92 in total.

When you put it this way, yes there is not much short content for high level players. If the intention of this proposal is specifically to cater towards those players, then it is a success. I just don't think that is a healthy direction to take for the community. Grow, not retain. But I've said my point, I'll make my peace.

converts suck and should never be brought up in an rc proposal about spread but the proposal is good. to say there is no bias is silly but to say that this bias is negative is sillier. clearly has the best interests of the game in mind, as any nat should.

amni dt wrote:

also as a player i don't care how it is achieved, but i'd love to see more maps in that range as the 2min or 5min nm gacha is getting annoying

this + other rarely ranked "tourney skillset" maps really if for some reason these is what holds those maps from getting ranked in first place, had some people that said to me on multi "why is these on tourneys theres barely any map with this skillset on ranked"

I think the benefits will outweigh the cons, if any.

+1

It’s good imo, being able to access more variety total in this mode can help really make things fun for everyone. There of course will be sets catered to not have the lower diffs, but people like me will still have the option to create those portions. I like those stats that were shared above, helps pain the picture for this proposal.


This being an additional option to what we have will always be a +1 to me

Secre wrote:

Cons:

- Less lower SR maps. This is probably the biggest, and really only con that I could think of. Except I believe that the impact will be alot more negligible than people think. This was also the same con that people thought of with the previous RC change. How did that turn out? In a large majority of cases, instead of opting to "not make spreads" anymore, I believe we ended up with a net positive of maps, aswell as overall higher quality lower difficulties especially in the platter-rain area. We ended up filling a pretty large gap of 2-4 minute platter/rains, by the fact that they too were also allowed to be ranked as their own difficulties.

Even if it does end up reducing the easy difficulties in new maps, we could solve it outside the ranking criteria: like automatically adding "star<4" in the beatmap listings until the player has passed a 4*.

As already highlighted by Trent, the vast majority of the ranked maps in CtB (and the other modes) are aimed at beginners or intermediate players. It would be nice to give advanced players more ranked content.

+ 1 BILLION!!!!!!
So if I understand this correctly, average length song spreads can start with salads, like mania normals? As people said this makes lower diffs optional as long as a spread has enough maps. That sounds good to me! As someone at a rain/overdose level i'd like to hear more songs, and this way, top player mapsets will still have difficulties for me because my skill level will be the lowest difficulty! I also feel that my consistency is garbage, my top plays are mostly 1:30 or less, and that's because there aren't longer maps. I would be better at the maps I can already play if they were longer. Next, it's fun to watch replays of high level players and people fighting for ranks. However, this is diminished because it feels like 3 digits all have to play the same mapsets which are all similar lengths. More high sr would give more variety. If we had more high sr mapsets then people could choose the songs they like, instead of the songs they are kinda required to play. That actually might give some uniqueness to top players too.

good proposal, support mappers to push mid-length songs without the need of lower diffs

+1 cuz means more maps/songs like fin.arc

tatatat wrote:

When you put it this way, yes there is not much short content for high level players. If the intention of this proposal is specifically to cater towards those players, then it is a success. I just don't think that is a healthy direction to take for the community. Grow, not retain. But I've said my point, I'll make my peace.

You don't know what is a good direction for the community. Your take is so bad and clueless but, you say it with such confidence that it's concerning.

The community is very, very small, with the least amount of mappers by a large margin, same with player base. The ONLY thing that truly matters in a map is it's quality. This suggestion that is being made is going to reduce the barrier to entry, but not the quality. Reducing the barrier to entry is going to shine light on many more maps that could be ranked / mappers that do not make 6 - 9 different diffulties just to rank a 2 minute map.

The game mode is already jank to map itself. If you want to make a clean map without odd spacings, then you should use a standard editor to get sv's correct. If you want to make a catch map intuitively, then you use lazer but sacrifice on precision placements.

On top of all of this, you then have an extremely confusing ruleset/guideline you must follow and understand for each difficulty to make your map somewhat playable.

This is why the barrier to entry is quite high and if you want to make a 7 or 8 star, you also need to know how to map 6 - 7 other diffs/ find 7 - 8 other individuals that are willing.

Finding those 6 - 7 willing people is much harder when the mapping community is small and not everyone likes the same genres/mapping style.

This change would just increase the amount of rankable maps and also increase the motivation of quite a few mappers, if not all of them.

Mapping should be fun, not a chore.

trent, you're losing me here because mapping is simply not a chore. you aren't obligated to map anything, you can easily pass off difficulties to other people just as i and many others do. my motivation to map does not increase or decrease from this proposal and i can imagine this is the case for many others. editor disparity between clients and ranking criteria (???) apply to every mode. we are not unique. we also don't need 6-9 difficulties on a 2 minute map, a lot of people choose to so we can provide more experiences to the players (something that is a net positive). regardless, we can be happy with the fact that it will improve the ranked section and leave behind this idea that this proposal will save the world.

also tatatat is lowkey rage baiting, we won't get anything done when it's clear you both will never agree and he has already said his piece.

u guys are hopeless

+1 good proposal

nice input big h zonda kit

BIG H ZONDA KIT wrote:

u guys are hopeless

if you have anything more helpful to contribute beyond malding at secre's general direction bc you dont like him then we'll be here, until then i invite you to refrain from being an ass for the sake of it, ty

Hareimu wrote:

BIG H ZONDA KIT wrote:

u guys are hopeless

if you have anything more helpful to contribute beyond malding at secre's general direction bc you dont like him then we'll be here, until then i invite you to refrain from being an ass for the sake of it, ty

u came back like yesterday please consider reading about catch to jog ur memory again before u act like the dictator
quit the chatgpt responses and get real

too funny, hareimu has achieved more than you ever will in this mode, not to mention the differences in respect that we have for him compared to you. have a little class and stop being so unbearable to talk to

BIG H ZONDA KIT wrote:

u came back like yesterday please consider reading about catch to jog ur memory again before u act like the dictator
quit the chatgpt responses and get real

this guy really thinks i completely quit the game and dont keep in touch with the people involved with the things that happen in my absence

im not the one calling people hopeless just bc they don't agree with me

but let's just focus on whats actually important, leave it to us to work on the mode and see if it collapses like you think it will, meanwhile you can focus on your life like you said you were gonna do in that twitter thread you made, i think it would be better for you and all parties involved

have a good day bigh

Not gonna lie, as someone that has been interested in mapping catch for the longest while, I think this will get more people like myself interested in mapping to the point of making it rankable. I do feel I do not have enough knowledge in the catch scene but I believe that for people who want to actually start to map and play catch more consistently this change brings way more benefits than negatives.

Can we keep things civil? This is just a ranking criteria proposal. Not end of the world..

+1 good change

A bit late but keep things civil.

i apologize if i didnt appear civil, i simply prefer to be clear and direct so we're on the same page

+1
there doesn't seem to be anyone who is both affected by this and against it, so I don't feel the need to elaborate my position

I'm not much in the catch mapping scene, but I like the flexibility that this suggestion offers.

+1 Don't really see the harm in this change. Plus if it works in mania then it can work here too.

+1 and I don't think "less lower SR maps" is a con because in this case it's just removing encouragement to make filler diffs.

as a player at Rain-ish skill level I'm apparently in range of being affected by this most and it still seems like a win-win to me. as do all proposals to relax spread requirements, in every game mode...

contain a proper spread, yes. at least x amount of difficulties, no. that puts too much constraint on songs that simply do not support that amount of SR variety such as low BPM songs or short-length (~30 second) songs. so imo as long as it's a spread that is deemed reasonable by the community/BNs/NATs then that's all.

Ambrew wrote:

contain a proper spread, yes. at least x amount of difficulties, no. that puts too much constraint on songs that simply do not support that amount of SR variety such as low BPM songs or short-length (~30 second) songs. so imo as long as it's a spread that is deemed reasonable by the community/BNs/NATs then that's all.

Note that the proposal requires the current spread requirements OR the new addition. Those kind of songs you mention would still follow the traditional requirement.

ZiRoX wrote:

Ambrew wrote:

contain a proper spread, yes. at least x amount of difficulties, no. that puts too much constraint on songs that simply do not support that amount of SR variety such as low BPM songs or short-length (~30 second) songs. so imo as long as it's a spread that is deemed reasonable by the community/BNs/NATs then that's all.

Note that the proposal requires the current spread requirements OR the new addition. Those kind of songs you mention would still follow the traditional requirement.

Ah I see, perhaps I misunderstood. Then I think it's fine.

PR has been created https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/12423 as almost all people seem fine with the change.

PR is merged.