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An open letter to woc2006

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Topic Starter
peppy
Well, I was planning on writing this to you in private, but haven't gotten around to it yet. In the mean time, it seems you have posted publicly ousting me on various things, so I'd like to give you a view from my (objective) perspective. Hopefully I've addressed everything that you mentioned, but let me know if I missed anything.

Background: I had to remove woc from the dev team a few days ago after I was alerted by a large number of emails that he was deleting all his code from the osu! repository. I did this as a safety measure and still have plans on letting him return should his mind change.

woc posted a long rant on baidu (http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2905827484?pn=1) to which I will provide responses to. Yes, I had to use google translate to retrieve meaning, but I believe that for the purposes at hand that should be fine. I am avoiding any of the emotional language as that is not relevant.

update: better translation in this post. I won't update my responses below as I don't believe it changes too much, but does allow for a much smoother read for those interested.

Today you can see osu core functionality of the code, 70% is in the first month of the first to write almost no change, including the editor, song selection, play relevant and so on. Since ppy was caused by mistakes on the young architecture has been left inside.
This is generally how software works. If you have been following my commits, I have been striving to fix the problem of archaic code by improving quality of existing code.

What is it about the mistakes, editor of the core code, I never did not understand too, ppy said he is still able to understand, but he just can understand, change does not move. So encountered want to change the function editor, I always have to spend a lot of effort, carefully avoiding the possible impact on the normal use of the code, write new logic. More often, simply can not add things.
Yep, we did discuss this. And you've done a great job working with my shitty code.

If you are a player, so the editor used to cool unhappy okay with you, then you definitely related to the stability of the game can not stay out of a game program on 60fps also felt card, which in itself is a problem, only 60Hz monitor refresh rate . To solve this problem, we need to plot the underlying logic and game logic, with two threads to run. This is the only possible reconstruction osu completed.
I can't figure if you mean the drop to 30fps when the game isn't focus (intended) or just performance in general. There are always methods of increasing performance, but your suggestion of moving updates and draw calls to separate threads – especially in a game like this – will introduce a hell of a lot more issues (in the form of very hard to track bugs) than it is worth. I'm not sure if you've ever tried dealing with a complex multi-threaded code-base, but it ain't easy.

Besides dev team is how it works with the code to compile and release the power of one person only ppy, I wrote the code, he should look at every sentence. Prior to September 13, my code is in an independent branch, all I can quickly change the bug into submission, then ppy periodically merge once, then release. Prior to this, we work very well, but then, I have to follow the requirements of ppy, every alteration, to create a new branch, separate submission.
This was the requirement to use pull requests. Even after then, I haven't looked through every sentence as I hoped to (I believe ALL code should be checked by a second set of eyes in all cases), but I have been able to hold back some of your patches where the quality wasn't really up to my standard. Also you mention the mania HR mod, but I was pretty sure the last thing you told me was to not merge it because it isn't ready. You probably should have brought this up again...

ppy has a habit is something of interest only, and will start a very good idea, and use it as motivation to do it without food or drink, and then osu is doing it, so that also the case modding v2 . The result is almost unanimously opposed BAT, because although BAT when nothing good reward, but at least do not waste their time with ppy justice guards play this game.


The results did not compromise the final ppy, modding v2 did not die, but ppy greater stir, he wanted to reconstruct the official website (ppy so it may be able to osu compared to code, can not endure the official website, the official website of the code does not tucao more) and then go together to make modding v2. The official website is currently ppy spend money on hiring people to write, slow progress.
I don't believe anyone is opposed to v2. And yes, it is taking longer than expected but it will happen.

So you see a shield SB later ppy function, in fact, that is lying to you, so that you shield on the surface, in fact, the shield SB ppy and background darkens when treated like cheating, documented. His bones are not recognized by this behavior, although it regardless, but maybe someday pp increase in the algorithm in addition to buckle off the SB and the like.
Storyboard disabling was being logged (maybe you refer to this as "being treated like cheating") so I could get an idea of how many people were disabling/dimming things. I used this data to build up statistics and come to the final conclusion of allowing it in all cases. I think you may have misunderstood my intentions here.

Speaking pp, will have to mention ppy players really do not know, one of these two years ppy do three big (stupid) thing is replaced by pp score, As this technology flow algorithm itself is good, tom We have to prove that, but nothing to do with ppy.
I hope I did not take credit for the new pp changes anywhere. And yes, I admit that there is no way I can keep up with difficulty/scoring/pp algorithms myself, because it is a very time-consuming tasks to understand the whole picture. This is why Tom has taken over now.

It score event, I realized ppy just a developer, with the players not detached. So no matter how he was doing, related to the average player does not matter, he was just doing what he likes.
I feel I do my best to keep up with player's demands. I am sorry if you don't see it that way.

osu in the plug-in ppy eyes is two, one is able to detect, one is not detected. Can be detected, and will ban, but never once ppy ban, according to his logic, immediately ban hanging with plug to get into the war, he did not have the energy to play cat and mouse, so the delay ban hanging, probably open people are afk then hang it.
With regards to your issues with the banning system, I really have nothing. Yes, in many cases we delay bans until we have enough information to deal with them, and do this in a way the team can handle the huge workload (which sometimes means people aren't banned as soon as they otherwise could be). My aim isn't to ban all cheaters, but to make it so the average player is not affected by cheaters. This is already hugely time-consuming and I can't really offer more.

Finally had to mention cookies.
I still have no idea about Cookiezi. He caused shit and used cheats, therefore is banned. He never tried to contact me, so I can't really say anything on this matter (maybe you know more than I do).

It was written a long one in loc posted to ppy to see, then ppy banned mania without sound. ppy think is my indulgence, and then very harsh to say: You do not want to engage in sound mania to roll out their own to do a Drop simulator, osu is sound, the sound is osu, which I absolutely do not compromise.
I'm still not willing to budge on the hitsounding issue.. bemani* games are the most IMPORTANT ones to properly hitsound.

The second sound contradictory or mania, but this problem is not, as is ppy suddenly some of my key code comments, and then put someone in the forum did not sound feedback mania bug stickers tossed me, let me go and change.
Woah woah woah. Let's examine what your code changes actually did: you were loading EVERY mp3/wav in the song directory every time the beatmap started. This included the mp3. The song mp3, not a sample. I honestly don't like calling people out so avoided doing this, but this was adding between 2-20 seconds load time every time a map is played. The song was being loaded into memory and stayed there until play was finished.

I accepted that this was my fault for accepting your code changes which caused this.

Is followed two days later, ppy start deleting my other code, this time there is no reason to delete, and then my last as a shake M, say one thing: Please tell me the reason to remove it.
I deleted one huge method of yours from the code in my maintenance branch, yes. It was a copy-paste of the most VITAL code in all of osu! with almost no alterations. You made a second copy of the whole .osu loading code just to change a few minor areas and allow it to be loaded into the editor in a different way.

I was working with that code for an hour or so before realizing I was editing your method rather than the one actually being used. This is very hard to see due to it containing the same 500+ lines. Therefore, I removed your method to avoid future confusion. Tom has already implemented what you were doing using a much nicer solution (as he required similar behaviour for difficulty calculation).

No answer.
I didn't answer you because I was struggling internally. I know that you don't like it when I call your code bad, but I had no other way to explain this particular case. I am sorry for not being more verbose, but I thought the outcome would be better if I just went ahead and fixed it on my branch. I think you may have taken that the wrong way.

Also you fail to mention the number of times you submitted patches which wouldn't compile (you never tested that it compiled before submitting). Or the recent bug fixes you have submitted which almost always cause a really obvious regression that can only mean they were never tested.

Overall, players choose osu, really because there is no other game on the pc platform there are so many songs, the sound itself is a very small minority tour player, rhythm masters players millions of scale, it is almost full China is willing to play all audio and more than 50% of the number of trips. Number of core audio tour playing even 1% of this base not to.
While I am grateful for how popular osu! is, keep in mind I am not at all worried about its future. I do not care for market share nor profit. I only care about making osu! as enjoyable for users as I can. If you don't feel that this is the direction osu! is heading, and don't wish on helping further that cause, then I strongly suggest that you start from scratch.

Yes, I can be stubborn when I am confident that my opinion is right, but this is how I choose to run osu!, and it lets me run it in an efficient way.

I'd just like to end this by saying that it is *very* easy to call a person out like this. No one is perfect, and I don't believe I am (not my personality, my code or my lifestyle). It is also very easy for you to get a dedicated audience with Chinese users for rants like this, and I doubt you will take my opinion written here back to your baidu thread, but do consider it.

While your code may not be perfect, I'd like to thank you for your contributions to osu! should you decide not to continue helping with development. From my end, while we didn't agree on everything, I believe that I tried as hard as I could to help you out (buying dev hardware, offering a more full-time position if you ever wanted it) and did give you complete freedom as to what you worked on, even though I didn't always merge your stuff.

For those looking on at this, note that I wouldn't usually post a response like this publicly, but the original was in the public domain so I guess this is the best way to handle it.
TheVileOne
Very well said.

I hope woc comes back or you don't give up on the mania community if he doesn't. I mean they want their keysounded maps, and this does have the potential to break existing maps that use a lot of custom hitsounds anyways. It is by no means a mania only consequence. There has to be a nicer way to load such files into memory.

I want to say more useful things, but I don't feel comfortable.
kanocchi
wow
Flower
tl;dr



Deleted my original comments seeing http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2921623. Hope the communication can end up everything and wish woc could be back.
ErunamoJAZZ
I also disagree with a multi thread system, may be a hell :P
Mizukashii
so... mania is hard to code...
Magnolia
this is interesting, i hope woc comes back, but osu doesn't need someone to... how should i put it "snap"
Magnolia

Flower wrote:

I kinda question this. Recall the day when modding v2 was issued.
it was something new, remember its the internet and everyone hates changes, with time people got a liking to it
Topic Starter
peppy

TheVileOne wrote:

I hope woc comes back or you don't give up on the mania community if he doesn't. I mean they want their keysounded maps, and this does have the potential to break existing maps that use a lot of custom hitsounds anyways. It is by no means a mania only consequence. There has to be a nicer way to load such files into memory.

I want to say more useful things, but I don't feel comfortable.
The actual sample loading is only still broken due to the sample import code writing the wrong file extension to .osu files. They will be fixed on a per-case basis by mappers or the BAT. This is already established in that particular issue's thread.

Also, there's no reason for me to "give up" on any part of the community. I wanted to see a bemani game mode for ages; I am not at all opposed to it continuing to develop.
Magnolia
still waiting on that touhou mode *hides*
Rotte
wow,sit and see drama
AngelHoney
:0
Kayano
↓ this sky down are all mine, me no give, you can't get -- by wtf ↓
Scorpiour
:0

hand bear thinking

“寡人无负于天下”
ursa
"every software script are always had a bug"
Fycho
lol
Zweib
ideas about Hatsune miku > Cookiezi?

No offense here. I'm just curious about it
troke
"all scripts / code / software definitely contains bugs, and no one is perfect"
pw384
TIME TO CHALLENGE THE TRANSLATOR!!!!

十年春,齐师伐我,公将战。曹刿请见。其乡人曰:“肉食者谋之,又何间焉?”刿曰:“肉食者鄙,未能远谋。”乃入见。问:“何以战?”公曰:“衣食所安,弗敢专也,必以分人。”对曰:“小惠未徧,民弗从也。”公曰:“牺牲玉帛,弗敢加也,必以信。”对曰:“小信未孚,神弗福也。”公曰:“小大之狱,虽不能察,必以情。”对曰:“忠之属也。可以一战。战则请从。”
mintong89

Fycho wrote:

lol
Knd
I'm one of piandinggous, we all hope osu! becomes better, as well kaiyuange(woc).
x847606653
o:
Regou
:0
Kagamine Rin
:o
Spy
Should I post again ?
Part 1 Code
I was be drowned out dev team by ppy,think about wrting something,first is memories,and broke the news about inside story of osu team.

You'll see 3 kinds of things here :
1.Code
2.management
3.Ban account and anit-cheat

Just talk about code first,please forgive me that I wrote the code to join dev team,so put it at the first.
Codes of osu! just abpit 50,000 lines,is a small program,from 2007.09 till today,ppy was submit over 10,000 times codes to github,in fact,my contribution is lower 5%,it also means not too much contribution.

Today,the core code osu! you see,70% was wrote in the first month,almost no change,including editor,music select,something about play..etc..Because ppy made the mistake about structure when the year he was young,still exist till now.

What mistakes .. ? core code of editor,I never understand it,ppy said that he still can understand it now,but he just understand it,no idea about modifying.
So when I want to change functions of editor,I must use too much effort,carefully to avoid any codes can use normally,to write new idea.More often,even can't add anything.

Such developing efficiency is too low,but mania editor is almost the new codes rewrite,so it is too fast,finish writing in 2 days.

I ever thought a more convenient editor,has any auto helping and error warning,but to make such thing,it is impossible to do except rewrite.

So I asked ppy whether rewriting editor or not,ppy rejected,reason is editor can using normally,why have to rewrite ?

His this opinion is not only is about editor,also use to all osu!,When I asked that osu! if have a version which is 0 to 2.0 someday,structure is more reasonable,function is more powerful,ppy said no vehemently,he is willing to modify on this code of basic forever.

Because is you're a player,so how we feel about using editor is no relation with you,then..stability of game you mustn't stay out,a game program in 60fps is still feel laggy,it has a problem on itself,refresh rate of monitor just 60Hz.
To solve this problem,need to separate drawing logic and game logic,use 2 threads to run.
That is be possible that rebuild osu! to make it come true too.

And let talk about how is dev team running,the person who has code compile and release right is only ppy,the codes I write,ever lines he must to look.
Before 2013.09,my codes are in the independent branch,about all bugs,I can fix and submit it fast,and then ppy merge again periodically,and then release.
Before that,our cooperation is successful,after that,I have to according to ppy's mandate,everytime I modify,and create a new branch,independent submission.

Just don't say that will gain how many jobs,after that has a phenomenon is ppy can choose not to merger somewhere I changed(Because I only a branch before,he must to merger)
For example some bug has been fixed,but ppy thinks it shouldn't be fix by that,so keep putting.
More often,he putting my some change for no reason,just putting and don't care about it.
For example:HR mod of mania,finished in October already,but place till now.

After that,my develop feeling is become subtle in dev team,seems like as I'm devote offerings to ppy,ppy accepts offerings happily,I don't have reward,unhappy,scold me directly.

So,I don't want to modify gradually.

After that,recently ppy is still continue to writing his function,probably is think that whether have me or not,he still is the same,so I'm the excess.

And about bug,only the bugs ppy cares are bugs,the bugs he doesn't attach importance to,that won't fix.

As a player,all we knoe too many bugs are appear while playing,and ppy who doesn't play that won't find these problems absolutely.A developer who doesn't play a game to develop a game,if that is in a standard game company,such staff member with get fire.
But ppy is boss,that is different.

Similar problems are also have Internet connection,what should us do if can't submit map result ? ppy is always connect to server directly,so he never has this problem,so this problem is not exist.

Overall,osu! can manager for such long time,still has closed relation with overall codes that basic stability,but if change to a person to write same code,how it will going,probably not worse.

=====To be continued=====
Colorlili
Hand tear bear
Koiyuki
need a better translator lol
[Mahua]

Scorpiour wrote:

:0

hand bear thinking

“寡人无负于天下”
给赞
hoshisorakiseki
Leasing of ads. spaces
Nepu
:O

hope the world all speak a same language

[Minakami Yuki] wrote:

need a better translator lol
Elinia
"卡" means "drop frame" or sometimes "lag" instead of "card"
Tanzureir
The '60fps' part woc talked about actually means that in osu!, if the game is running on 60fps, there is still some sort of lags which can be eliminated through high fps limiter (or even unlimited fps). This seems strange because computer screens are mostly updated on a 60-fps basis.
richardfeder
I shouldn't post this at the beginning but it's clear to us all that google translation would only brings more setback in understanding each other(>,<). Since the community has already notice existence of woc's address, I think it is necessary to let you guys all know what is he really talking about.

but there are several things worth mentioning first. this address is original written in Chinese, which never should be understand by many, and obviously it is written in the mood of extremely disappointed and rage. In these basis subjective points of view and radical expression are absolutely impossible to be avoided.


I am just complaining in that post
It's not objective enough
And the root (of our conflict)
Lies in our lack of communication

The fundamental idea for me and my friends to bring this address to the community, let me declare again, is prevent further misunderstanding. Although woc's address is written in a quite subjective view, I hope readers can judge his words objectively and give some understanding to a guy who contribute so much but in the end get nothing. Insulting and aggressive sentences are not and should never be our focus, woc's words in rage never count. In the end, woc still love this community and that's the reason why he would like to devote for osu!mania so long.

Being kicked out of dev team by ppy yesterday, I would like to post something about both my experience in osu! dev team and some uncovered truth in osu team.

You may expect to see the following things in my post:
1. Things related to coding osu
2. Things related to managing osu
3. Things related to ban cheating players and anti-third party program involving in cheating

Let’s talk about code first. Please forgive me for talking about this first, since coding for mania is the reason for me to join the dev team.

70% core code of osu! which are functioning today were written in the very first month of osu! development, and until now most of them are still serving without remarkable changes, such as code relate to editor, song choosing, playing ect. [have no big difference in framework compare to the code written in the beginning], and structural blemishes in the early days, too, inherit to present.

How awful those “structural blemishes in the early days” are? For example [about the editor], I have never understood the core codes of editor, and although ppy claimed he understand those codes well, even he himself cannot handle [make significant improvement on] those codes anyway. So whenever I come up with any ideas about improving the editor, I have to pay extra attention to those outdated codes, trying not to interfere with core codes [which are written long time ago with flaws and] still functioning [so that I won’t damage the editor’s routine working which is based on codes with flaws] and are forced to use new logic to write my code in order to achieve my goal. But more often the situation is I just can do nothing to the editor [due to those codes are broken at the beginning].

And of course this results in a very low efficiency in coding. In the contrary, mania editor is totally new to osu! and every code is completely based on nothing, so the development of mania editor is extremely quick [compare to the improvement of osu editor], which only took me two day to finish.

I once considered reconstructing the editor totally with various feature such as auto-check and error reminder.

I went to ppy for approval, and receive an instant denial. The rhetoric is “nowdays editor is working well, what’s the reason for reconstruction?”

And he implements this logic not only on editor but also the whole osu! development. When I ask for a future plan about the construction of a 2.0 version osu! with better framework and more powerful functions, he rejected furiously, claiming he will stick on old core codes forever.

(richardfeder: Here woc2006 is starting another example about the necessity of rewriting the core codes)Even if you are a common player who has nothing to do with editor, you are still deeply involved in other elements relate to the stability of this game. For instant if a game [osu!] is even lagging in a fps of 60 while monitor is refreshing in a rate of barely 60Hz, then there must be something wrong with the game itself, and resolving this problem can be achieved by [把底层的绘图逻辑和游戏逻辑分离,用两个线程来跑 sorry I have no idea how to translate this I not familiar with CS sorry! T.T], which also need a totally reconstruction on osu! framework [which is rejected by ppy].

Let’s shift our focus to how the [dev] team is running. Ppy is the only person who has the power to edit and publish any codes, and every code I wrote and submitted has to be checked by him sentence by sentence. Before 9/2013 my codes were all submitted by a single branch and for any bugs emerged in osu! I can fix and submit my codes quickly into that single branch, while ppy gathered and published them from that branch constantly. Our corporation went pretty well at that period of time. However after a short while ppy ordered me to submit any new update to a new branch, hand in my codes independently.

Besides increasing my workload in huge extent, this action allows ppy to not include my updates into his game (since I only handed in one branch before, ppy has to converge my branch into the whole code system anyway). For example if I would like to fix a bug while ppy disliked my ways of fixing, he could just ignore the branch [containing my codes he didn’t like], and most of the time he even refuse to provide any explanations for why he dismissed my update. One example is the case of HR mod of mania which is completed by me at October but released much later [due to his ignore].

Since then the atmosphere in dev team was slowly changing. I feel that I was paying tribute to ppy and if he accepted gladly, there won’t be rewards for me. If not he will just yell at me badly.

That’s why I became more and more unwilling to update at that time.

And later ppy just kept his update as usual, seeming my existence is totally needless.

For ppy, a bug will never be fixed if he doesn’t recognize that bug as a “bug”.

It obviously to players all that most bugs appear randomly during plays, and for ppy who never play the game himself it is just impossible for him to detect [and recognize] those bugs. In any formal game company a dev team employee who never plays the game will absolutely be fired, but truth is that ppy is employer [so he will never realize those problems].

Same situation also happen in submitting scores. Ppy directly links to serves so he never find out this problem, and thus for him this problem never exist.

Overall the long live of osu! is inextricable with stable core codes(the code written long time ago by ppy), but I believe if the core code of osu! had written by another person, that code would be no worse compare to today’s core code.


ppy knows the fact that many people have a number of ways to copy osu!, but he is not worry about this since he believe those people who are trying to copy his program have no deep understanding about game management. And indeed none of those copiers succeed in the end. Then what’s ppy’s point of view on the game management?

We all know that osu! largely rely on the mutualism among players and mappers. Mappers come from common players, and by mapping mappers keep old players and attract more to join the game. Osu! has a rapidly growing group of players is pretty much the result of new maps keep getting ranked. A game can attract new players to join only by keeping developing itself, and if new comers saw the latest ranked beatmap was ranked in 2012, they would surely leave.

Ppy rely on BATs to get maps ranked. In his eyes BATs are elite mappers and they have the responsibility to pick good maps and get them ranked, and for mappers, if they are going to map then they should follow certain rules and instruction of BATs, because BATs are elites.

And here comes the trouble. Mapping becomes a pure devotion for most mappers and because of their love for certain songs, they are willing to suffer endless modding and endure hypercritical BATs. But after their maps get ranked, they receive pride and nothing else, even remaining unknown to players.

And BATs have enough power to determinate the fate of any beatmaps while involving their subjective points of view into their decisions, and besides communication within BATs, there is no other ways to supervise how they bubble and rank beatmaps.

And this is just a small problem on the dimension of modding system, and although this is not perfect, at least it is running.

However ppy always considers BATs are checking maps on a volunteer-basis so when he is constructing modding v2, he places BATs at a position even more volunteer. BATs now have nothing to do with getting any maps ranked, they just need to be the “defenders of justice [quality]” and unranked any unqualified maps.

ppy has a tendency to do things he harbor great interest only, having a fancy dream about his ideas which keep encouraging him to accomplish his goals. That’s how he created osu!, and of course the case of modding v2 is the same. The result [of modding v2] is that nearly every BATs agree on disagree with ppy, since although being a good BAT can still be awarded nothing, at least they don’t need to waste their time playing the game of “defenders of justice [quality]” with ppy.

ppy doesn’t compromised anyway at last, so does modding v2. In the contrary he would like to reconstruct the official website (that’s why ppy can bare core codes of osu! but he can’t bare codes of website since indeed codes of official website are even more unbearable) which will also contain his modding v2. The situation now is that ppy hires people to build up this official website, slowly.

That’s his attitude towards BATs, and of course his attitude towards players is even worse.

Ppy regards osu! as a competitive game, but when this idea comes to players, ppy prefer players open up everything [beatmaps provide] while playing such as storyboard, thinking if not then why mappers pay so much effort in making these things. This idea seems satisfy both players and mappers, but in fact either is satisfied.

Obviously competitive players dislike storyboard with effects like halation, meanwhile ppy refused to set up a function to disable storyboard, causing everybody deleted storyboard, a behavior dissatisfied mappers.

So the function to disable storyboard now is actually merely a disguise. Seemingly allowing you to disable SB, ppy is actually regarding the behaviors of dimming background and disabling SB as a kind of cheat, recording them and saving as documents. From his heart he does not endorse this kind of behavior [such as disabling SB and dimming background] and although he is not acting now, he might make this kind of behavior affect pp system any day in the future.

About pp [system], I have to say that ppy really doesn’t understand players. Within two years one of the three biggest (stupidest) things ppy has done was replacing score with pp. About the virtue or vice of pp, Tom has already proved if this [pp] system is [a] good [standard] for players who focus on skill [to rank their performances], but this has nothing to do with ppy. Besides, abandoning score is a hardly understandable decision, just like we abandon RMB (richardfeder: nowadays currency in Chinese) one day in the future and shift to another currency.

I have no idea how can ppy had the courage to deny countless efforts for years in one night, pushing another ranking system to replace ranking system at the time, with a reliability unknown.

It’s the incident of score makes me notice that ppy is just a developer who has little connection with players. that’s why no matter what he does it always has nothing to do with common players. He is just doing business he loves.

After that pp system experienced several changes, ppv2 emerged and always [remains in the stage of] beta, nobody knows when it will be finalized. I can say, tormenting players like that, [ppy] is not a good operator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I will talk about the cheats. It is the things that players pay much attention to. Some players will be mentioned, but those players don't play osu now. So maybe it doesn't matter for mentioning.

The first topic I took with Peppy is how to ban snowreborn and hatsune miku.banning hatsune mikuthe is the ambition of nano, and what happened on hatsune miku is the hotest topic at that time .

as a result, peppy got the proof that hatsune miku cheated, but he still don't ban him. The reason is that the osu comunnity will be a mess .please remember what peppy said .it will be once again mentioned at the following.

But why ban him, i think peppy have a good spirit that day.

There are two kind of the cheats in osu in peppy's opinion. One can be checked. The other can't be checked. The one who use the cheat that can be checked is bound to ban.but peppy never ban it as soon as possible. In peppy's opinion, ban the cheater quickly will result in a fall into the battle with the cheaters. He hasn’t got enough time to catch all the cheaters and ban them. So delaying ban cheaters will maybe make the cheaters quit this game.

the logic I won't to talk(吐槽不知如何翻译 sad) more. Refer to other online games. You will know how unreasonable that way to deal with those who cheated
what's more ,the cheaters that can't be checked is just use the physical things like using multi-screen.but there are still some ways to find the behavior. The method is created by nano. We find someone to test, we can find out that he or she have used the multi-screen. I have submitted the core of that program. But peppy denied it because it will disturb players. So it wasn't accpted and nothing happened in the future.

i also have the ways not disturbing the players. It is behavior model. According to the The game behavior modeling,i think it is the strongest way, whatever cheats won't escape from the model's analysis. And this plan was still not acceped by peppy. Because he can't understand it.

For next best things, analyzing reply file can also find out many cheaters, according to the things like the stabilization of hitting. But peppy still didn't accept it. The reason is that the server's operational capability is limited

So we can know. peppy's attitude to against cheats is that he will deal with it as he can possibly manage. Otherwise he will find an excuse not to deal with it.

In my opinion, if you feel it worth overcoming it, all the excuse is not excuse. so peppy think it is not worthy to against cheats .

Peppy contribute to find the multi-account.because it doesn't have any cost.and when ban it, there is a special sense of achievement. Ban the thousands of multi-account every month.but the number of players showing on the webset of osu included these multi-account. it is ridiculous to do such a thing .

In the end, it is necessary to mention cookiezi

many people who work in game company know the concept of famous players(I don't know how to translate the 节点玩家.because I never heard it xDDD)which means a really awesome players can influence thousands of players who play this game. This kind of players' leaving will do damage the business of the game company

cookiezi is this kind of player

In that case, peppy don't apologize to cookiezi and didn't tell the related people to make an apology.this make cookiezi angry. a player work off his angry on cheating. it is easy to know that there is no other ways to do it. Generally,the Operators help to clear the scores , give some compensation and placate him. After that they will do some internal reorganisation in order not to let this takes place again.

But in the end, peppy ban cookiezi without thinking.

Do you still remeber the peppy's attitude to hatsune miku. What he do it for cookiezi is just hit on his own face (means against his own opinion). Originally, the influence of cookiezi in the community is not as big as hatsune miku. 23333(means laugh)

So I find nothing can be recall. I have done whatever I could do. The rest is not I can change.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At last I want to talk about the key issues that make me quit osu dev.

Actually I always consider myself as almost a 抖M(a joking way of expressing “masochist” in Chinese) . Although ppy and osu have lots of imperfections, I thought it’s my responsibility to put all my efforts into it, and to do as much as I can to maintain the current situation.

But the issue in regard to the hitsound of o!m for the first time made me wanna quit.

It was when Loctav wrote a long post for peppy, and peppy ordered that mania MUST have keysound. (Kemo: here the keysound refers to the HITsound like that in standard mode, not like the traditional Keysound that makes up a part of the music. In other mania-like games, the beatmaps are either without any hitsound or filled with customized keysound that makes you feel like you are playing a musical instrument.) When I said I thought Loctav was right, ppy deemed my opinion as connivance, and he harshly criticized: “If you wanna deprive mania of hitsound, you can get out of here and make your own game. Hitsound is osu, osu is hitsound, I won’t make any concession.”

I translated word by word what he said. At that time I was like “WTF”, “Are you crazy”. If you say that hitsound to osu is just like pornographic to Japan (just joking, no offensive), that would be understandable. But in fact none of the players consider the hitsound as the distinguishing feature of osu. And to me his dogmatism to hitsound is unreasonable.

And by the way his tone is really provoking at that time, almost make me go ballistic.

Yet I did not really go ballistic. Instead I spent one entire week and finished my RC project (Kemo: a ranking platform for all beatmaps, rank and unranked, based on the replays uploaded by players).

The second conflict is still related to keysound, but a different problem. One day peppy annotated one of my key paragraphs of code and let me deal with the mute bug of keysounded mania maps.

Yet two days later, ppy began to delete my code, and this time for no reason. For the last time of being a masochist, I asked: Could you plz tell me the reason why you delete my code?

There’s no answer.

All right. The time of being a masochist is over. The next day, after I deleted all my code on github, which peppy aren’t “satisfied” with, I left.

---------------------------------------------

To sum up, the reason why players choose osu, is really because there is no other rhythm game which has so many songs to play. Rhythm game player is really a small group. In China, QQ Rhythm Master claimed to have a million users. I believe that number represents almost more than 50% of people across China who are willing to play such kind of games. And the number of people who play “real” rhythm games are even less than 1% of that number.

The reason why I joined osu dev is because I want to do something for the community and make players happier while playing. That motivation is still with me, so I will still continue to contribute to the osu community.


End.


Part 1:richardfeder
Part 2:victorica_db
Part 3 and Ending:Kemo
What we should do now is focus on the future of this game, not retreating and denying efforts we have made for years. Accusing anyone is not helpful for us, and wasting time blaming and insulting is only hurting a already badly injured community. No one is expecting a worse osu! in the future, and so does woc2006.

woc2006 wrote:

The reason why I joined osu dev is because I want to do something for the community and make players happier while playing. That motivation is still with me, so I will still continue to contribute to the osu community.
LZCSC

Elinia wrote:

"卡" means "drop frame" or sometimes "lag" instead of "card"
233
Spy

richardfeder wrote:

I shouldn't post this at the beginning but it's clear to us all that google translation would only brings more setback in understanding each other(>,<). Since the community has already notice existence of woc's address, I think it is necessary to let you guys all know what is he really talking about.

but there are several things worth mentioning first. this address is original written in Chinese, which never should be understand by many, and obviously it is written in the mood of extremely disappointed and rage. In these basis subjective points of view and radical expression are absolutely impossible to be avoided.


I am just complaining in that post
It's not objective enough
And the root (of our conflict)
Lies in our lack of communication

The fundamental idea for me and my friends to bring this address to the community, let me declare again, is prevent further misunderstanding. Although woc's address is written in a quite subjective view, I hope readers can judge his words objectively and give some understanding to a guy who contribute so much but in the end get nothing. Insulting and aggressive sentences are not and should never be our focus, woc's words in rage never count. In the end, woc still love this community and that's the reason why he would like to devote for osu!mania so long.

Being kicked out of dev team by ppy yesterday, I would like to post something about both my experience in osu! dev team and some uncovered truth in osu team.

You may expect to see the following things in my post:
1. Things related to coding osu
2. Things related to managing osu
3. Things related to ban cheating players and anti-third party program involving in cheating

Let’s talk about code first. Please forgive me for talking about this first, since coding for mania is the reason for me to join the dev team.

70% core code of osu! which are functioning today were written in the very first month of osu! development, and until now most of them are still serving without remarkable changes, such as code relate to editor, song choosing, playing ect. [have no big difference in framework compare to the code written in the beginning], and structural blemishes in the early days, too, inherit to present.

How awful those “structural blemishes in the early days” are? For example [about the editor], I have never understood the core codes of editor, and although ppy claimed he understand those codes well, even he himself cannot handle [make significant improvement on] those codes anyway. So whenever I come up with any ideas about improving the editor, I have to pay extra attention to those outdated codes, trying not to interfere with core codes [which are written long time ago with flaws and] still functioning [so that I won’t damage the editor’s routine working which is based on codes with flaws] and are forced to use new logic to write my code in order to achieve my goal. But more often the situation is I just can do nothing to the editor [due to those codes are broken at the beginning].

And of course this results in a very low efficiency in coding. In the contrary, mania editor is totally new to osu! and every code is completely based on nothing, so the development of mania editor is extremely quick [compare to the improvement of osu editor], which only took me two day to finish.

I once considered reconstructing the editor totally with various feature such as auto-check and error reminder.

I went to ppy for approval, and receive an instant denial. The rhetoric is “nowdays editor is working well, what’s the reason for reconstruction?”

And he implements this logic not only on editor but also the whole osu! development. When I ask for a future plan about the construction of a 2.0 version osu! with better framework and more powerful functions, he rejected furiously, claiming he will stick on old core codes forever.

(richardfeder: Here woc2006 is starting another example about the necessity of rewriting the core codes)Even if you are a common player who has nothing to do with editor, you are still deeply involved in other elements relate to the stability of this game. For instant if a game [osu!] is even lagging in a fps of 60 while monitor is refreshing in a rate of barely 60Hz, then there must be something wrong with the game itself, and resolving this problem can be achieved by [把底层的绘图逻辑和游戏逻辑分离,用两个线程来跑 sorry I have no idea how to translate this I not familiar with CS sorry! T.T], which also need a totally reconstruction on osu! framework [which is rejected by ppy].

Let’s shift our focus to how the [dev] team is running. Ppy is the only person who has the power to edit and publish any codes, and every code I wrote and submitted has to be checked by him sentence by sentence. Before 9/2013 my codes were all submitted by a single branch and for any bugs emerged in osu! I can fix and submit my codes quickly into that single branch, while ppy gathered and published them from that branch constantly. Our corporation went pretty well at that period of time. However after a short while ppy ordered me to submit any new update to a new branch, hand in my codes independently.

Besides increasing my workload in huge extent, this action allows ppy to not include my updates into his game (since I only handed in one branch before, ppy has to converge my branch into the whole code system anyway). For example if I would like to fix a bug while ppy disliked my ways of fixing, he could just ignore the branch [containing my codes he didn’t like], and most of the time he even refuse to provide any explanations for why he dismissed my update. One example is the case of HR mod of mania which is completed by me at October but released much later [due to his ignore].

Since then the atmosphere in dev team was slowly changing. I feel that I was paying tribute to ppy and if he accepted gladly, there won’t be rewards for me. If not he will just yell at me badly.

That’s why I became more and more unwilling to update at that time.

And later ppy just kept his update as usual, seeming my existence is totally needless.

For ppy, a bug will never be fixed if he doesn’t recognize that bug as a “bug”.

It obviously to players all that most bugs appear randomly during plays, and for ppy who never play the game himself it is just impossible for him to detect [and recognize] those bugs. In any formal game company a dev team employee who never plays the game will absolutely be fired, but truth is that ppy is employer [so he will never realize those problems].

Same situation also happen in submitting scores. Ppy directly links to serves so he never find out this problem, and thus for him this problem never exist.

Overall the long live of osu! is inextricable with stable core codes(the code written long time ago by ppy), but I believe if the core code of osu! had written by another person, that code would be no worse compare to today’s core code.


ppy knows the fact that many people have a number of ways to copy osu!, but he is not worry about this since he believe those people who are trying to copy his program have no deep understanding about game management. And indeed none of those copiers succeed in the end. Then what’s ppy’s point of view on the game management?

We all know that osu! largely rely on the mutualism among players and mappers. Mappers come from common players, and by mapping mappers keep old players and attract more to join the game. Osu! has a rapidly growing group of players is pretty much the result of new maps keep getting ranked. A game can attract new players to join only by keeping developing itself, and if new comers saw the latest ranked beatmap was ranked in 2012, they would surely leave.

Ppy rely on BATs to get maps ranked. In his eyes BATs are elite mappers and they have the responsibility to pick good maps and get them ranked, and for mappers, if they are going to map then they should follow certain rules and instruction of BATs, because BATs are elites.

And here comes the trouble. Mapping becomes a pure devotion for most mappers and because of their love for certain songs, they are willing to suffer endless modding and endure hypercritical BATs. But after their maps get ranked, they receive pride and nothing else, even remaining unknown to players.

And BATs have enough power to determinate the fate of any beatmaps while involving their subjective points of view into their decisions, and besides communication within BATs, there is no other ways to supervise how they bubble and rank beatmaps.

And this is just a small problem on the dimension of modding system, and although this is not perfect, at least it is running.

However ppy always considers BATs are checking maps on a volunteer-basis so when he is constructing modding v2, he places BATs at a position even more volunteer. BATs now have nothing to do with getting any maps ranked, they just need to be the “defenders of justice [quality]” and unranked any unqualified maps.

ppy has a tendency to do things he harbor great interest only, having a fancy dream about his ideas which keep encouraging him to accomplish his goals. That’s how he created osu!, and of course the case of modding v2 is the same. The result [of modding v2] is that nearly every BATs agree on disagree with ppy, since although being a good BAT can still be awarded nothing, at least they don’t need to waste their time playing the game of “defenders of justice [quality]” with ppy.

ppy doesn’t compromised anyway at last, so does modding v2. In the contrary he would like to reconstruct the official website (that’s why ppy can bare core codes of osu! but he can’t bare codes of website since indeed codes of official website are even more unbearable) which will also contain his modding v2. The situation now is that ppy hires people to build up this official website, slowly.

That’s his attitude towards BATs, and of course his attitude towards players is even worse.

Ppy regards osu! as a competitive game, but when this idea comes to players, ppy prefer players open up everything [beatmaps provide] while playing such as storyboard, thinking if not then why mappers pay so much effort in making these things. This idea seems satisfy both players and mappers, but in fact either is satisfied.

Obviously competitive players dislike storyboard with effects like halation, meanwhile ppy refused to set up a function to disable storyboard, causing everybody deleted storyboard, a behavior dissatisfied mappers.

So the function to disable storyboard now is actually merely a disguise. Seemingly allowing you to disable SB, ppy is actually regarding the behaviors of dimming background and disabling SB as a kind of cheat, recording them and saving as documents. From his heart he does not endorse this kind of behavior [such as disabling SB and dimming background] and although he is not acting now, he might make this kind of behavior affect pp system any day in the future.

About pp [system], I have to say that ppy really doesn’t understand players. Within two years one of the three biggest (stupidest) things ppy has done was replacing score with pp. About the virtue or vice of pp, Tom has already proved if this [pp] system is [a] good [standard] for players who focus on skill [to rank their performances], but this has nothing to do with ppy. Besides, abandoning score is a hardly understandable decision, just like we abandon RMB (richardfeder: nowadays currency in Chinese) one day in the future and shift to another currency.

I have no idea how can ppy had the courage to deny countless efforts for years in one night, pushing another ranking system to replace ranking system at the time, with a reliability unknown.

It’s the incident of score makes me notice that ppy is just a developer who has little connection with players. that’s why no matter what he does it always has nothing to do with common players. He is just doing business he loves.

After that pp system experienced several changes, ppv2 emerged and always [remains in the stage of] beta, nobody knows when it will be finalized. I can say, tormenting players like that, [ppy] is not a good operator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I will talk about the cheats. It is the things that players pay much attention to. Some players will be mentioned, but those players don't play osu now. So maybe it doesn't matter for mentioning.

The first topic I took with Peppy is how to ban snowreborn and hatsune miku.banning hatsune mikuthe is the ambition of nano, and what happened on hatsune miku is the hotest topic at that time .

as a result, peppy got the proof that hatsune miku cheated, but he still don't ban him. The reason is that the osu comunnity will be a mess .please remember what peppy said .it will be once again mentioned at the following.

But why ban him, i think peppy have a good spirit that day.

There are two kind of the cheats in osu in peppy's opinion. One can be checked. The other can't be checked. The one who use the cheat that can be checked is bound to ban.but peppy never ban it as soon as possible. In peppy's opinion, ban the cheater quickly will result in a fall into the battle with the cheaters. He hasn’t got enough time to catch all the cheaters and ban them. So delaying ban cheaters will maybe make the cheaters quit this game.

the logic I won't to talk(吐槽不知如何翻译 sad) more. Refer to other online games. You will know how unreasonable that way to deal with those who cheated
what's more ,the cheaters that can't be checked is just use the physical things like using multi-screen.but there are still some ways to find the behavior. The method is created by nano. We find someone to test, we can find out that he or she have used the multi-screen. I have submitted the core of that program. But peppy denied it because it will disturb players. So it wasn't accpted and nothing happened in the future.

i also have the ways not disturbing the players. It is behavior model. According to the The game behavior modeling,i think it is the strongest way, whatever cheats won't escape from the model's analysis. And this plan was still not acceped by peppy. Because he can't understand it.

For next best things, analyzing reply file can also find out many cheaters, according to the things like the stabilization of hitting. But peppy still didn't accept it. The reason is that the server's operational capability is limited

So we can know. peppy's attitude to against cheats is that he will deal with it as he can possibly manage. Otherwise he will find an excuse not to deal with it.

In my opinion, if you feel it worth overcoming it, all the excuse is not excuse. so peppy think it is not worthy to against cheats .

Peppy contribute to find the multi-account.because it doesn't have any cost.and when ban it, there is a special sense of achievement. Ban the thousands of multi-account every month.but the number of players showing on the webset of osu included these multi-account. it is ridiculous to do such a thing .

In the end, it is necessary to mention cookiezi

many people who work in game company know the concept of famous players(I don't know how to translate the 节点玩家.because I never heard it xDDD)which means a really awesome players can influence thousands of players who play this game. This kind of players' leaving will do damage the business of the game company

cookiezi is this kind of player

In that case, peppy don't apologize to cookiezi and didn't tell the related people to make an apology.this make cookiezi angry. a player work off his angry on cheating. it is easy to know that there is no other ways to do it. Generally,the Operators help to clear the scores , give some compensation and placate him. After that they will do some internal reorganisation in order not to let this takes place again.

But in the end, peppy ban cookiezi without thinking.

Do you still remeber the peppy's attitude to hatsune miku. What he do it for cookiezi is just hit on his own face (means against his own opinion). Originally, the influence of cookiezi in the community is not as big as hatsune miku. 23333(means laugh)

So I find nothing can be recall. I have done whatever I could do. The rest is not I can change.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At last I want to talk about the key issues that make me quit osu dev.

Actually I always consider myself as almost a 抖M(a joking way of expressing “masochist” in Chinese) . Although ppy and osu have lots of imperfections, I thought it’s my responsibility to put all my efforts into it, and to do as much as I can to maintain the current situation.

But the issue in regard to the hitsound of o!m for the first time made me wanna quit.

It was when Loctav wrote a long post for peppy, and peppy ordered that mania MUST have keysound. (Kemo: here the keysound refers to the HITsound like that in standard mode, not like the traditional Keysound that makes up a part of the music. In other mania-like games, the beatmaps are either without any hitsound or filled with customized keysound that makes you feel like you are playing a musical instrument.) When I said I thought Loctav was right, ppy deemed my opinion as connivance, and he harshly criticized: “If you wanna deprive mania of hitsound, you can get out of here and make your own game. Hitsound is osu, osu is hitsound, I won’t make any concession.”

I translated word by word what he said. At that time I was like “WTF”, “Are you crazy”. If you say that hitsound to osu is just like pornographic to Japan (just joking, no offensive), that would be understandable. But in fact none of the players consider the hitsound as the distinguishing feature of osu. And to me his dogmatism to hitsound is unreasonable.

And by the way his tone is really provoking at that time, almost make me go ballistic.

Yet I did not really go ballistic. Instead I spent one entire week and finished my RC project (Kemo: a ranking platform for all beatmaps, rank and unranked, based on the replays uploaded by players).

The second conflict is still related to keysound, but a different problem. One day peppy annotated one of my key paragraphs of code and let me deal with the mute bug of keysounded mania maps.

Yet two days later, ppy began to delete my code, and this time for no reason. For the last time of being a masochist, I asked: Could you plz tell me the reason why you delete my code?

There’s no answer.

All right. The time of being a masochist is over. The next day, after I deleted all my code on github, which peppy aren’t “satisfied” with, I left.

---------------------------------------------

To sum up, the reason why players choose osu, is really because there is no other rhythm game which has so many songs to play. Rhythm game player is really a small group. In China, QQ Rhythm Master claimed to have a million users. I believe that number represents almost more than 50% of people across China who are willing to play such kind of games. And the number of people who play “real” rhythm games are even less than 1% of that number.

The reason why I joined osu dev is because I want to do something for the community and make players happier while playing. That motivation is still with me, so I will still continue to contribute to the osu community.


End.


Part 1:richardfeder
Part 2:victorica_db
Part 3 and Ending:Kemo
What we should do now is focus on the future of this game, not retreating and denying efforts we have made for years. Accusing anyone is not helpful for us, and wasting time blaming and insulting is only hurting a already badly injured community. No one is expecting a worse osu! in the future, and so does woc2006.

woc2006 wrote:

The reason why I joined osu dev is because I want to do something for the community and make players happier while playing. That motivation is still with me, so I will still continue to contribute to the osu community.
huoyaoyuan
Translator causes misunderstand \o/
Topic Starter
peppy
Thanks for the better translation!
Renge Miyauchi
A new adds can bring some new bugs
Is it alright to kick woc out ?
I think he have done so much for OSU!
I think you should try to play OSU! and test OSUby yourself as A player
Sellenite
I'm sorrowful because woc2006's quit,He worked very hard and very responsible,he listen our suggestions, and then reflect to you,also fix a lot bug.
Topic Starter
peppy

Renge Miyauchi wrote:

A new adds can bring some new bugs
Is it alright to kick woc out ?
I think he have done so much for OSU!
I think you should try to play OSU! and test OSUby yourself as A player
Thanks for not reading my post. He was "kicked out" because he started to delete his own code. I removed him to limit damage. As I say in my opening post, he is welcome back providing that doesn't happen again.
Bobbias
While I think a big portion of this is due to either a lack of proper communication (from either party) or misunderstandings, I do think woc makes a few legitimate points.

Osu is plagued by bugs stemming from edge cases whether it's crashing when you try to load a new .osu file that hasn't properly been loaded (This still happens), or one of the many other bugs like it. I believe many of these are likely the result of what I would call 'careless coding' (I'm not trying to be offensive in any way. I know I'd never be able to manage a project of this size and complexity) for lack of a better term. I haven't seen the osu code base, but if these bugs are anything to go by, it seems that much of the program has been 'thrown together' without as much attention paid to ensuring that unexpected input doesn't cause issues. (In fact, the mania editor feels clunky and awkward, which I suspect means that the original editor's code was not designed with the idea of adding potential game modes in the future.)

That's great for pushing out features quickly, but not very good when you want something that's stable and polished. If that is the case, I think osu could benefit from having much of this internal structure rewritten in a more robust way, but I do understand that doing so would mean you would have to spend a lot of time working on something that wouldn't have any visible results for players until you finally released the updated binaries, so I can understand your resistance to the idea.

I would also like to say that when you are being stubborn about something you believe is the correct solution, you can be very obnoxious about it, and that bothers a lot of people. I understand you're busy, and having to repeat yourself explaining why you think you're right on something must be extremely frustrating, I believe many of us would appreciate you being a bit less blunt/hostile (and less willing to lock threads) when someone happens to criticize you or your ideas.
Topic Starter
peppy
I think you really, really can't make such statements from the outside. The mania editor feels clunky because it ISN'T using the existing framework, not vice-versa ^^;.

If you have bugs, then report them on tech support. If you are going to complain about bugs which still exist, first look at how many are getting resolved (and how fast they are resolved).
WolfCoder
As a software developer, it clearly looks like to me that woc2006 can't work well in a team (especially if he gets defensive when you call his code "bad" or he keeps coding circles around the existing framework). Hopefully he can take a deep breath and return to work, realizing the needs of the players outweigh his personal emotions.

(ps: I've never seen not-shitty code that also actually saw its release date)
Bobbias
I was careful to make it apparent that I don't know for sure, so I can only make guesses. The point about bugs was just to illustrate that the vast majority of bugs are edge cases that could have been dealt with when the code was first written.

Most of the bugs I encounter are extremely hard to reproduce to the point where submitting a thread here is nearly useless. I wasn't trying to complain about the pace that bugs were being dealt with at all.
CrazyStar
Maybe you need to think that how much sincerity you disburse for mania player.
TicClick
pushing a code that is not compiling.. feels bad, man.

However, I hope it'll be sorted out and woc will come back and continue contributing.
Drace
While I am grateful for how popular osu! is, keep in mind I am not at all worried about its future. I do not care for market share nor profit. I only care about making osu! as enjoyable for users as I can. If you don't feel that this is the direction osu! is heading, and don't wish on helping further that cause, then I strongly suggest that you start from scratch.

Yes, I can be stubborn when I am confident that my opinion is right, but this is how I choose to run osu!, and it lets me run it in an efficient way.
So basically all the players working hard and hopping to see mania grow should leave too. Wow man.

Greatest.
Dev.
Ever.

kudos~
Renge Miyauchi

peppy wrote:

Thanks for not reading my post. He was "kicked out" because he started to delete his own code. I removed him to limit damage. As I say in my opening post, he is welcome back providing that doesn't happen again.
Sorry;w;
but , he said you hardly accept his code . when it has differences .
Some codes were ignored .
Fushimi Rio
Wow, each time I refresh there will be a new reply here.
Rasis
Osu is not just a game developed by ppy. It looks more like owned by all osu players. Many players contributes to this game in public or somewhere you don't know...
woc wants to make the game better, the same to all players. So can ppy listen to players more?

SPOILER
osu不只是ppy一个人开发的游戏,更像是所有玩家的游戏。很多玩家都在你看到和看不到的地方为游戏做着贡献。
woc想让这个游戏更好,所有玩家都是。所以ppy可不可以多听听大家说的呢

edit:
翻译们都是小天使
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