Edit: I should clarify that this is only about the current pp-rank restricted-BWS system as it is, this won't apply if we get a better tourney rating system in the future. I am not asking for tournaments to be all open-rank forever.

I'm getting tired of seeing this normalisation of deranking/playing offline/whatever it is people do to gain an unfair competitive advantage and yet day after day, these tournaments hand out badges to these people which seem like just a trophy they expect to get after they 'derank' or stay at the same rank range for a long enough time.

This kind of stuff has ruined the fun for casual/newer tournament players who just want to have a competitive experience in this game.

A common argument derankers have is that they just want to play with their friends. They can play casual multis, or unranked 2v2s with the matchmaking bots that exist.

These 'derankers' face no consequences or repercussions, even many tourney hosts encourage this type of behaviour and its disgusting to see. I personally have had a few toxic experiences with some of these players which made me stop playing tournaments, I'm sure others have as well.

There have been posts complaining about this issue before for years, yet nothing has been done. So, if you want to see a positive change in the tournament scene, don't support this coming year's iteration of 4/5/6WC, don't participate in rank-restricted tournaments.

Thanks for the protip!

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Good idea i like it

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If the evil is prevailing, you can just switch sides and become one of them. Think about all the badges you would earn.

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you sound like you just got dogged on by someone

get well soon

He missed 3wc.

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Cry about it. If you want to solve derankers problem, use alternative rank system, cause pp is shit for tournaments. Or you may wait for lazer, since peppy, as i heard decided to mix current pp system with something else to give better representation of skill

i wont support 4/5/6wc but i'll support 7wc

[darkness] wrote:

I'm getting tired of seeing this normalisation of deranking/playing offline/whatever it is people do to gain an unfair competitive advantage and yet day after day, these tournaments hand out badges to these people which seem like just a trophy they expect to get after they 'derank' or stay at the same rank range for a long enough time.

This kind of stuff has ruined the fun for casual/newer tournament players who just want to have a competitive experience in this game.

A common argument derankers have is that they just want to play with their friends. They can play casual multis, or unranked 2v2s with the matchmaking bots that exist.

These 'derankers' face no consequences or repercussions, even many tourney hosts encourage this type of behaviour and its disgusting to see. I personally have had a few toxic experiences with some of these players which made me stop playing tournaments, I'm sure others have as well.

There have been posts complaining about this issue before for years, yet nothing has been done. So, if you want to see a positive change in the tournament scene, don't support this coming year's iteration of 4/5/6WC, don't participate in rank-restricted tournaments.

And what's the alternative for me? Play 7* Pools in Open ranks? Get <100k each map and not qualify ever?

Rank restricted tournaments are necessary, not everyone will get to level of play that allows them to play in open ranks.
The current system is flawed, I agree, I would love to see all of established tournament players move up in the "brackets (100k -> 50k?)" But the problem is systematical at every rank cut-off.

Without Hosts intervention in 3/4 digit tournaments, players in lower ranks have no realistic chance in competing at level they are meant to.

I believe that if hosts and staff in 3/4D get stricter, we will see the change in mentality of players in all rank rangers who won't be discouraged to play in higher rank tournaments once the standard 16 or so players who always get high places is forced or willingly moves to higher tier.

abolish rank restricted tournaments and embrace a league system!

Well, depends on the decisions from hosts of the tournament
on taiko we have 4 digits world cup, and they're banning a specific person because they're already winning on some tournaments, also most of the people here already know the skill set of this player because they're known as deranker.

https://prnt.sc/DQHoscq9LHUh

filomaster22 wrote:

And what's the alternative for me? Play 7* Pools in Open ranks? Get <100k each map and not qualify ever?

Rank restricted tournaments are necessary, not everyone will get to level of play that allows them to play in open ranks.
The current system is flawed, I agree, I would love to see all of established tournament players move up in the "brackets (100k -> 50k?)" But the problem is systematical at every rank cut-off.

Without Hosts intervention in 3/4 digit tournaments, players in lower ranks have no realistic chance in competing at level they are meant to.

I believe that if hosts and staff in 3/4D get stricter, we will see the change in mentality of players in all rank rangers who won't be discouraged to play in higher rank tournaments once the standard 16 or so players who always get high places is forced or willingly moves to higher tier.

I'm just talking about the current system as it is, this won't apply if/when we ever get an actual tourney rating system. Of course there needs to be a place where all levels of play can have a fair competitive experience.

The best thing poeple can do right now if they want a change is to not support/contribute to this cycle, the tourney scene is plagued with these toxic insecure people, just look at the replies on this post.

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I'm a new tournament player who's looking to participate in 6WC and maybe even 5WC in the future, but as a newbie, while I do agree that derankers ruin the fun for tournaments that arent top-player level, rank restricted tournaments are necessary, not everyone will get to a point where they're good enough to play for open ranked lobbies.

The current system is flawed, yes, we have screening through ETX Histories or Ratings, PP Ranges/Significant Graph Changes and etc, but it can't be helped, think of them as a more tame version of smurfs in League of Legends, I do believe that players shouldn't prioritize tournaments so much early on their osu! journey, but for those interested like me it's already big enough to be able to qualify and participate, what matters most is the experience you get by playing tournaments so you either stick with it until you're top 1k+ or just drop it completely and play for fun.

I don't have a good insight about derankers, but as someone who has been able to participate and see a few tournaments, while derankers do slip up through screening, at least some more obvious ones don't get away from it, derankers are mostly the reason why some tournaments have mappool difficulty that are higher than what an average player should be able to play in that certain rank, but I do think that tournaments should only be taken very very seriously once you're like OWC level, then again derankers still, in later stages of the tournament, underperform, they're not SS or 1mil+ robots, so as long as you can match them with your team I think it's still winnable.

then again if im being honest, if you're taking it too seriously then why match up with nonderankers? you get better chances of winning when you get in a team with derankers lol

MikanMinty wrote:

rank restricted tournaments are necessary, not everyone will get to a point where they're good enough to play for open ranked lobbies.

And not everyone will get to a point where they are as good as the 3 digits/high 4 digits masquerading as 5 digits either.

think of them as a more tame version of smurfs in League of Legends

I might be wrong, but people hate smurfs in any game, and you'd get similar negative responses playing as a diamond player in a silver-restricted tournament for instance.

what matters most is the experience you get by playing tournaments

The experience in question: getting inspired to sandbag your rank so you can do half-decently

then again if im being honest, if you're taking it too seriously then why match up with nonderankers? you get better chances of winning when you get in a team with derankers lol

Some people don't like being hypercarried lol -- there are those in the rank restricted community who team with people way better than them frequently, and as far as I can tell they are not regarded in a particularly positive light.

Let's say if rank-restricted tournament isn't allowed anymore. Would it be much worst if all tournaments are open-rank? There'll be no more 6-5-4-3WC and unimmidiately prohibits the newbie's step into the pro scene. Even you're banning those players who has win, there'll another hundreds of players
hunting for the glory.

I know the feel when derankers exist even in a small tournament. We can't prevent them, but we can minimize their existence, and that's how rank-restricted system works. You can press them more by making the rules more strict.

Rather than crying above it, why don't you try to improve yourself?

raynald wrote:

I know the feel when derankers exist even in a small tournament. We can't prevent them, but we can minimize their existence, and that's how rank-restricted system works. You can press them more by making the rules more strict.

I'm sorry, but the rank-restricted system literally works the other way: to maximize their existence and glorify derankers. I do agree that hosts should be making the rules more strict.

raynald wrote:

Rather than crying above it, why don't you try to improve yourself?

So you are encouraging more people to improve and sandbag at their current rank so that they can match up to the current derankers and continue the cycle? If that is what you want to continue then by all means.

Ok but there's nothing else for low rank players to play then, I agree it's bad but we've learned to just kind of deal with it because we want to play tournaments

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this is so dumb XD,players are better than me so lets just abandon everyone that isnt maliszewski lol?

how is it an unfair advantage?
people practice pools, spend years playing and practicing skillsets for tournament, but they should lose against new tournament player?

no one have the same definition of deranker anyways, and it's mostly used to complain about people that beat you in a match

just stop wanting to have everything handled to you, tournament are a different way to play the game, you should work hard for it, every players who wins tournament worked hard for that, there is no reason why you who don't even try should be rewarded the same as them

Kaeldori wrote:

how is it an unfair advantage?
people practice pools, spend years playing and practicing skillsets for tournament, but they should lose against new tournament player?

Why do you assume that people complaining about derankers means that they just want to freely win a tournament?

Practising pools and practising skillsets is all moot if you play a skillcap pool against someone whose skillcap resembles a player far outside the rank range. It is possible to be well rounded without having a mid 4 digit level of mechanics.

no one have the same definition of deranker anyways, and it's mostly used to complain about people that beat you in a match

There are people that are clearly sandbaggers. It's true that classifying who is what is a subjective thing to do, but it does not mean that the most egregious cases should be allowed to run rampant. And people really aren't so salty to just call everyone they lose to a deranker.

To put it to an extreme, if a top tournament player such as maliszewski gets scores wiped and starts destroying 5 digit tournaments in 2025, there is no sane person that will tell you "skill issue get better".

just stop wanting to have everything handled to you

It seems more like derankers are the ones that want everything handed to them, such as the free pass to sandbag everywhere.

every players who wins tournament worked hard for that, there is no reason why you who don't even try should be rewarded the same as them

The reason people have hard fought grand finals is because rank ranges are generally so doomed that you just see sandbaggers dogging it out. It's obviously hard fought if you had to beat another guy that is around your skill level in a 5d tournament if both of you are around a 5k level.
That in no way implies that this should continue to be the status quo.

In essence, you're saying that "hey, these guys worked hard to sandbag the hardest in xxx rank range so they should be rewarded for it", which inherently just goes against the idea/ethos of what a rank restricted tournament is supposed to do.

It is patently ridiculous to see people that can rank up to high 4 digit / 3 digit playing in 5 digit tournaments (with several individuals ranking up and making owc teams easily) playing in 5 digit tournaments, full stop.



for instance, a recent 3k 1v1 tournament was top 3ed by three 5 digit players. I'd think this requires a level of skill way past what a 5 digit should be able to do, but do correct me if you feel otherwise. Perhaps you think the 3k players didn't work hard enough to win the tournament?

raynald wrote:

Let's say if rank-restricted tournament isn't allowed anymore. Would it be much worst if all tournaments are open-rank? There'll be no more 6-5-4-3WC and unimmidiately prohibits the newbie's step into the pro scene. Even you're banning those players who has win, there'll another hundreds of players
hunting for the glory.

I'm not wanting all tourneys to be open-rank, I want a proper rating system which 'I think' is being developed but it has been years and rank-restict tourneys are getting out of hand at the moment.

de_nuke wrote:

Good idea i like it

I actually agree too

CopyPasted wrote:

I'm sorry, but the rank-restricted system literally works the other way: to maximize their existence and glorify derankers. I do agree that hosts should be making the rules more strict.

Well yeah. At some point, it'll just prosper the derankers. But with a limit of rank, we at least have the derankers only in that nearly current range.

CopyPasted wrote:

So you are encouraging more people to improve and sandbag at their current rank so that they can match up to the current derankers and continue the cycle? If that is what you want to continue then by all means.

That's not my point. We can't control the derankers. So do the host. With all the regulations that we've been running since long, it's better to just improve your skills than grumbling it. Im not normalize them, but we actually have nothing to do and just participate in the tournament. We hope there'll be a fair matchmaking in the future.

[darkness] wrote:

I'm not wanting all tourneys to be open-rank, I want a proper rating system which 'I think' is being developed but it has been years and rank-restict tourneys are getting out of hand at the moment.

Unsupporting the current categorizing system doesn't resolve the issue at all, bro. Indeed everyone wanted a better matchmaking system. But this one will just makes everything got worst. Currently, we don't have any proper matchmaking system that'd make everything is fair and balance. In GTS and 4TWC iteration, they have their own rules to strict overpower player. Perhaps it can be a good illustration in the future.

hot take: just be better than them at the game
you think "derankers" didn't practice for a long time to be able to win anything?

Tutka wrote:

hot take: just be better than them at the game
you think "derankers" didn't practice for a long time to be able to win anything?

this is exactly my idea, there will never be a good enough system to actually detect all derankers anyways, you're asking for way too much if you want a perfect "anti-deranker" system.

if im being honest, im a deranker myself by now, im a 5 digit looking to play on 6 digit tournaments but honestly who could blame me? 5 digit derankers are way worse than 6 digit ones, and from what ive seen the most obvious derankers get screened like 99% of the time anyways (Zorokii in 6 digit tournaments for example)

derankers still put in time and effort to play like how they do, 700+ hours just to win a few tournaments and they still fumble some even after all that, you're just most likely complaining about derankers because you're not good enough to even play against them, they will be a staple in the tournament scene and that will not change, ive been defeated by derankers in the past but ive never complained even once because I know that they still put in work to play the mappool regardless of how good they are (unless you're kezja who literally got piloted by a top player during 6wc then thats just not cool, multiaccounting is also not cool)

like I said, the tournament scene below 4 digit+ is fucked up, even some 4 digit tournaments are fucked up, so you might as well join the derankers to get even just a little bit of skill advantage, applies to teams too because while sure, no one likes getting hypercarried, on the other hand you might as well do your best to not be such a heavy weight to the team, so stop complaining and actually try to get better, or you know, you could always quit tournaments I guess? tournaments arent all there is to this game, and im saying this as a player who EXCLUSIVELY got into osu! through tournaments, lol.

Tutka wrote:

hot take: just be better than them at the game
you think "derankers" didn't practice for a long time to be able to win anything?

Are we just gonna ignore all the players that have unranked 600-900pp plays or have 12kpp+ on other private servers that still farm their badges/banners in 10K+ rank tourneys? Or the amount of people that seem to just instantly halve their rank once they decide they're done with a certain rank bracket?

this is such a sad way to look at tournaments imo as someone who isn't a deranker but plays in tons of tournaments i feel like if ur not playing to have fun ur pretty much wasting ur time. yeah losing or getting swept isn't that fun but the people i've met and the fun i've had has made it completely worth it. draft tournaments are also really nice for people who aren't derankers as well since it gives everyone a completely fair chance regardless of your skill level. but anyways i think u just need to not play tournaments if u don't like them it's so easy to not sign up

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I think you're also going to run into a massive issue classifying what a deranker is. In my head, deranker is specifically talking about players that intentionally "score v1" their scores to lower pp values to lower their rank, (and perhaps one or two people that have been banned and simply refused to fill out their set of scores again). Realistically, this is a WAY WAY smaller portion of players than people imagine it to be.

Seriously, how many of these 5 digit "super players" are derankers, and at what point do you have to call someone a deranker? There are a couple obvious examples of true derankers like xKirito or Siiphs. What about a player like Pieris? 5 digit with 600+ plays using the EZ mod, is the fact that he only submits EZ mod scores past the line? What about ploot? Canadian 20k with a cpol upload top play, he's never deranked a score and consistently performs highly in 5 digit tournaments, he's simply "picky with what maps go on his top plays". Is that also deranking?

Hell, I've been called a deranker a couple times, since I've been playing in 5 digit tournaments for over a year now, and am often placing in SemiFinals or higher. That said, I've never been banned, never deranked a play, and am still not nearly the strongest player in my tier, or even in the same tier of player as the strongest players in my range. Yet some people would still call me a deranker just cause they speculate that if I tried to farm, I'd make it to rank 5k. Is this even true? Hard to say without me committing a month of my time to grinding pp and I'm not interested in the experiment.

I understand the frustration with people camping rank restricted cutoffs by refusing to grind pp, or even just players specializing in non-pp giving skillsets making lower rank cutoffs have way stronger players than you'd expect. For example tech players or reading players. Additionally the "solution" of BWS doesn't really do much since you need 3-5 badges before the rank change becomes meaningful and you only get badged if you come in first in the entire tournament so not many are even given out a year.

Best alternative I could imagine is some system that granted players points based on how high they place in badged tournaments similar to how ATP rankings work for professional tennis, but it'd be a difficult system to implement and even after it goes live it'd take at least a year before you see any changes.


Explorations of a better system is the best approach you can take for now, as pushing for the removal of rank restricted tournaments would be punishing to far too many players, and asking hosts to crack down on manual screening will inevitably end badly since everyone has a vastly different view of who should or shouldn't be allowed in a certain range.

Lastly, perhaps you could advocate for rank restricted tournaments to become ineligible for badges, such that only open tournaments can grant them..... That WOULD push SOME players away from camping the boundary, but it would degrade the scene dramatically in several other ways. This post is long enough but I'm not a fan of that solution either.

TL:DR I agree that the current system is pretty bad for evaluating tournament skill and it's hard to imagine how to design a better one at the moment, there needs to be a lot of work done on this front. However, basically everything more manual from boycotting rank restricted tournaments to pushing hosts to get strict with manual screening, will be massively detrimental to the scene and I'd expect a near complete dissolution of competition below rank 5k.

MikanMinty wrote:

this is exactly my idea, there will never be a good enough system to actually detect all derankers anyways, you're asking for way too much if you want a perfect "anti-deranker" system.

I'm not asking for a perfect system, just for a more fair system and for hosts to step up and screen more harshly. Instead they seem to be more focused on social climbing off derankers.

MikanMinty wrote:

like I said, the tournament scene below 4 digit+ is fucked up, even some 4 digit tournaments are fucked up, so you might as well join the derankers to get even just a little bit of skill advantage

This mindset needs to stop, and I only see other derankers spew this mindset to defend their sake.

daniel_ wrote:

this is such a sad way to look at tournaments imo as someone who isn't a deranker but plays in tons of tournaments i feel like if ur not playing to have fun ur pretty much wasting ur time. yeah losing or getting swept isn't that fun but the people i've met and the fun i've had has made it completely worth it. draft tournaments are also really nice for people who aren't derankers as well since it gives everyone a completely fair chance regardless of your skill level. but anyways i think u just need to not play tournaments if u don't like them it's so easy to not sign up

I think that having fun playing tournaments and noting that derankers are a massive problem do not have to be mutually exclusive.

It is rather unfair to tell people to stop playing tournaments because extreme sandbaggers are ruining the fun for them -- all the more it calls for action to be taken to mitigate such behaviour.

Perhaps you were addressing OP's claim to stop supporting rank restricted tournaments, which i do agree is not the move.

Junkmaniac wrote:

It is rather unfair to tell people to stop playing tournaments because extreme sandbaggers are ruining the fun for them -- all the more it calls for action to be taken to mitigate such behaviour.

Perhaps you were addressing OP's claim to stop supporting rank restricted tournaments, which i do agree is not the move.

i mean yeah i was mainly talking abt his claim to stop supporting them and i do agree that derankers are a huge issue in 5 digits but i feel like if your main enjoyment out of tournaments is not losing you will dislike them regardless of whether the issue is solved. there are always gonna be people who are unbelievably consistent or amazing at a gimmicky skillset that will beat you even if they aren't in the arbitrary definition of what you would call a "deranker". just a shitty mindset to have any game in general especially something as competitive as tournaments in osu

and to add onto this i'm not super familiar with how the 5 digit or 5k scene is nowadays i mainly just play 4 digit which really isn't bad in terms of derankers in my opinion