Yales wrote:

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31408
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/195039 <- I was talking about this map btw.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/237649
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/61684
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/170775
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 <- Perfect example too

etc.etc.etc.
Basically.

Let's take this one as example. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 The BPM might be slow. It's way harder to clear/fc with HR than DT (BECAUSE this is a slow bpm). But at the end, you'll have more PP with DT. Something like this.

I wasn't talking about the same map. But this works too.


To make it clearer. Whether dt is overrated whether hr is underrated but in any case there's a problem here. At a point that I didn't even find necessary to explain this in my first post. I thought that was really obvious.

I tried to explain it in a general way but if you want my own example to explain this. It will be even more obvious.

Full Tablet wrote:

It depends on your individual skills. You get more accuracy with high bpm than low bpm (apparently even with the tighter timing windows when applying DT to slow maps). Personally, I find the DT version of the maps harder (specially this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148, which is too fast for me currently; I get more accuracy with HR than with DT even though the OD is 7).

I think that considering the faster version of the maps harder makes more sense, since they are technically harder. A player that knows how to stream slow or is fast enough to singletap the streams in the low bpm maps would consider them very easy.

GoldenWolf wrote:

None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..

What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system

That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard

The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though

Yales wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..

What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system

That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard

The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though

I'm not saying it's bad! I mean don't get me wrong, when I don't play just to chill I play for tp instead of PP (personal preference) but it's always a bit sad to get some tp for some scores I found really hard and the pp system doesn't acknowledge me this. While it does for the 2 dt maps I play per week. You're saying it's just a coincidence that it's dt maps, i don't know. anyway.

That's it.

" I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though"

Yep.

dennischan wrote:

DT should be nerfed.
end of story.

Ethelon wrote:

Was there a change recently? I didn't see anything in the changelog and I'm sure my ranking already updated when I earned my pp from the other day, but I updated my rank today with a junky score on a new map and went from ~13,100 to 12,477.

silmarilen wrote:

you have only a bit over half their combo. since combo is still the main way to get score, tom decided that it should also be a big factor in the amount of pp a score gives.

casmith789 wrote:

As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)

So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.

Rewben2 wrote:

casmith789 wrote:

As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)

So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.

Hm, interesting. Can Tom confirm/deny this?

silmarilen wrote:

the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid

id be interested to see the max pp possible then because I remember checking a hackers top ranks and a DT score on airman was well over 800-900 pp imagine every play being that

Tess wrote:

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain?

Tom94 wrote:

It is impossible to find out how good someone has spun without per-hitobject data. If it ever happens there will be a small bonus for spinning well, but it is certain that it will never happen to old scores retroactively. It's simply impossible to recover that data for scores without replays and even the ones with replays would have subtle bugs.

To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry.

Rewben2 wrote:

Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.

I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.

mastaa_p wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.

I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.

I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it

another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp

third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp

How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).

Rewben2 wrote:

mastaa_p wrote:

I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it

another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp

third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp

How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).

Tom posted the formula for max combo. It is pretty harsh yeah, unless you're towards the full-combo mark your pp output is going to get shot down by quite a bit. If you get less than half of the maximum combo you can pretty much say goodbye to your pp. I'm not complaining, the intention is that the combo is the main way of getting score thus it should be a big factor in getting pp, which I understand.

Your first example is rather interesting; the difference is a tiny bit of accuracy and the first score was about 73%~ of the max combo, yet the pp output was about 2.5x higher for the second score. Are you sure those are the exact values you had for both before and after and the pp given? Because that doesn't seem normal. Did you have a few misses on the first score before you fc'd? That could explain it.

The last two examples are rather expected. The second example has pretty bad accuracy and the last one is very far off a fc with also missing acc.

Tom94 wrote:

Let me repeat once again, the system rates the quality of your performance. It is not intended to give a lot of points to plays on hard maps which you can barely pass. Imagine playing the piano. You don't perform in a concert with a damn hard piece, that you can barely play with quite a lot of mistakes.

mastaa_p wrote:

I probably had a miss or two, I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous the weight is on combo as opposed to accuracy or map difficulty (50% combo on a map twice as hard as another with a full combo is worth less than half the fc pp). As to addressing the first example: I can verify that the pp given was around 40 (I was annoyed by this at the time) and the exact figures from the score were 400/535 combo with ~97% acc. Somehow I managed that with 8 misses, no idea how I did that XD.

-GN wrote:

hi, a friend of mine recently improved his score on With a Dance Number [0108 style]:

pic

the supposed improvement was from a 700 combo 96% score to this. he actually lost pp for setting the score, somehow - and i can't think of any possible causes for this happening(not to mention, the map itself is a lot harder than it is credited for, and i'm blaming the difficulty calculation for that). could you look at it and try to find the cause for it? if it was a bug of sorts, it should probably be checked, and if not, i'm not sure what the system is doing, but it can't possibly be what it should do.

e: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1627393 this is the old score that was overwritten - 3 less 100s, but 11 misses as opposed to none, for reference.