Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

posted
Total Posts
2,749
show more
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Just gonna drop some feelings out here real quick: I think deathstreams are incredibly overrated. So many maps contain relatively easy long streams and provide insane amounts of pp from them. It'd be nice to see faster streams rewarded more and longer ones rewarded less (hopefully this will balance out for long fast streams). At the moment fast stream provide barely any amount of pp compated to longer streams(say a few 270bpm 12 note streams vs a 40 note 220bpm stream).

To add to this, I find large jumps to be rewarded too greatly while very fast short jumps are underrated. Half screen 300bpm jumps should be valued as much as full screen 230bpm jumps imo, especially when in rapid succession for relatively large periods of time.

It also seems that the difficulty increase/decrease from the size of hit circles is overrated. Large hit circles seem to help more than the current system thinks while smaller hit circles make the map a fair deal harder.

My final point is the scaling of pp with map length. The system currently seems to scale penalties for combo based on how far from a full combo you are and amount of misses in total, this is kinda frustrating because it means that full-combos on a 1200 combo map are worth as much as a slightly easier 500 combo map. There should be a large reward for comboing longer maps and less of a penalty for missing on them (it seems strange to me that a 900 combo on a map with 1200 max combo awards LESS pp than a map of equal difficulty and 500 max combo with an fc).
pooptartsonas
128 posts
Joined January 2012
pooptartsonas
I don't know as much about the long streams vs. fast streams since I'm not much of a speed player, but I definitely think smaller hitcircles and longer maps need to be rewarded much more.

I understand how the pp system currently accounts for smaller hitcircles, and that increasing your area is just like playing larger hitcircles, etc. But I can say in practice, it definitely isn't working like that. With how large the screen is, you can only make your area so big, and playing smaller circles requires more steady hands and better aim than the system makes it out to need due to how players snap. The difficulty gap is much more evident in CS6/CS7 maps + HR where aim is super hard but the aim tp is not very high, but I still think CS5+HR needs to be rewarded much more too. As a HDHR player, I've grown to dismiss CS5 maps as pp maps whenever I see them because they're always so much harder than CS4 maps that give the same amount of pp. I'm not sure exactly how to go about it so that the algorithm for it "makes sense", but I definitely think the scaling for points should be higher than the scaling for the circles themselves.

And as for longer maps, I've found that they generally do give lower pp than they deserve because of how much longer it takes to full combo them if you have some given percentage chance to miss at any point in the map. I mean, if you have a 1/10 chance at FCing a 500 combo map, you would ideally have a 1/100 chance at FCing a 1000 combo map, which means it would take on average 10 times as long. Obviously, if the map is really easy to FC, then it will take on average less than twice as long, but those maps won't give much pp anyway. Nerves are also a much bigger factor on longer maps. I don't think the map length scaling needs to be massive, but I think it should be at least noticeable.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i dont think high cs is that underrated.
this map is worth 80+ aim tp with hd dt only because of the cs, the map itself is a piece of cake
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

silmarilen wrote:

i dont think high cs is that underrated.
this map is worth 80+ aim tp with hd dt only because of the cs, the map itself is a piece of cake
At the very least low cs is overrated.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

jesus1412 wrote:

At the very least low cs is overrated.
I agree
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213
­
Last edited by pielak213 , edited 1 time in total.
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales
One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.

I mean, completely messed up.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Yales wrote:

One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.

I mean, completely messed up.
People who say this are very careless. In some environments it's overrated but in others it's severely underrated. Large jump maps can rewards up to 500pp while far faster maps can barely top 300pp. It really depends on the map, jumps formed from dt tend to be easier to follow which is why people would call dt an overrated mod while short fast streams and smaller faster jumps are rarely ever mentioned because they don't fit the "overrated" trend. It seems the problem is that balanced maps are underrated rather than extreme maps overrated, a map which is extremely fast and mildly jumpy seems to be penalized far too much for not having long streams or immense jumps despite maintaining huge difficulty throughout (I'm looking at maps DT'ed by dragonhuman and co.).
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

jesus1412 wrote:

Yales wrote:

One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.

I mean, completely messed up.
People who say this are very careless. In some environments it's overrated but in others it's severely underrated. Large jump maps can rewards up to 500pp while far faster maps can barely top 300pp. It really depends on the map, jumps formed from dt tend to be easier to follow which is why people would call dt an overrated mod while short fast streams and smaller faster jumps are rarely ever mentioned because they don't fit the "overrated" trend. It seems the problem is that balanced maps are underrated rather than extreme maps overrated, a map which is extremely fast and mildly jumpy seems to be penalized far too much for not having long streams or immense jumps despite maintaining huge difficulty throughout (I'm looking at maps DT'ed by dragonhuman and co.).
I'm not talking about maps DT>160BPM, the amount of pp is clearly deserved in this case.
But those 130bpm maps that got more than 50 players with SS DTHD. (no offense, I know a SS is a hard thing).

I remember I did a random hddt play one time on a 130bpm map (200~ with dt), got quite a bad accuracy, 1 miss or 2 at the middle of the map, the full combo would be at 700... And I got the exact same amout of pp than a FC hrhd 1300 combo and quite good accuracy with the same bpm (200~).

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
Oskur
40 posts
Joined September 2012
Oskur

Yales wrote:

I remember I did a random hddt play one time on a 130bpm map (200~ with dt), got quite a bad accuracy, 1 miss or 2 at the middle of the map, the full combo would be at 700... And I got the exact same amout of pp than a FC hrhd 1300 combo and quite good accuracy with the same bpm (200~).

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
It looks like you're comparing two different maps' pp values with different mods, which isn't a good comparison. The two maps could have vastly different mapping patterns, which would skew the pp values.

(Assuming you're talking about two different maps since you're saying that you DT'd something at "~200" BPM and comparing the pp value gained from that to someone with an "FC hdhr 1300 combo... with the same bpm (200~)")
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Yales wrote:

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
I don't know any single map that becomes easier with DT, mind showing some examples?
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
The only maps that become easier with DT are maps from 2007-2008 that have badly chosen difficulty settings.
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

GoldenWolf wrote:

Yales wrote:

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
I don't know any single map that becomes easier with DT, mind showing some examples?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31408
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/195039 <- I was talking about this map btw.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/237649
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/61684
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/170775
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 <- Perfect example too

etc.etc.etc.
Basically.

TMoI wrote:

It looks like you're comparing two different maps' pp values with different mods, which isn't a good comparison.
Assuming you're talking about two different maps
I'm comparing what I find easier/harder to play against the result.

TMoI wrote:

Assuming you're talking about two different maps
Let's take this one as example. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 The BPM might be slow. It's way harder to clear/fc with HR than DT (BECAUSE this is a slow bpm). But at the end, you'll have more PP with DT. Something like this.

I wasn't talking about the same map. But this works too.


To make it clearer. Whether dt is overrated whether hr is underrated but in any case there's a problem here. At a point that I didn't even find necessary to explain this in my first post. I thought that was really obvious.

I tried to explain it in a general way but if you want my own example to explain this. It will be even more obvious.
PlasticSmoothie
242 posts
Joined March 2010
PlasticSmoothie
To me it just seems like you're confusing "what I think is hard" with "What is hard".

I suck at HR. There are probably a bunch of maps I can FC easily with DT but not as easily with HR. Does that mean that HR should be worth more pp? No. it simply means I'm bad at HR. Nothing more.

HR starts getting you a lot of pp if you use it on maps that are hard.
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

HR starts getting you a lot of pp if you use it on maps that are hard.
Which is not the case for DT which gives a good amount of pp no matter what. Glad you understood.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Yales wrote:

This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31408
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/195039 <- I was talking about this map btw.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/237649
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/61684
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/170775
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 <- Perfect example too

etc.etc.etc.
Basically.

Let's take this one as example. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 The BPM might be slow. It's way harder to clear/fc with HR than DT (BECAUSE this is a slow bpm). But at the end, you'll have more PP with DT. Something like this.

I wasn't talking about the same map. But this works too.


To make it clearer. Whether dt is overrated whether hr is underrated but in any case there's a problem here. At a point that I didn't even find necessary to explain this in my first post. I thought that was really obvious.

I tried to explain it in a general way but if you want my own example to explain this. It will be even more obvious.
It depends on your individual skills. You get more accuracy with high bpm than low bpm (apparently even with the tighter timing windows when applying DT to slow maps). Personally, I find the DT version of the maps harder (specially this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148, which is too fast for me currently; I get more accuracy with HR than with DT even though the OD is 7).

I think that considering the faster version of the maps harder makes more sense, since they are technically harder. A player that knows how to stream slow or is fast enough to singletap the streams in the low bpm maps would consider them very easy.
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

Full Tablet wrote:

It depends on your individual skills. You get more accuracy with high bpm than low bpm (apparently even with the tighter timing windows when applying DT to slow maps). Personally, I find the DT version of the maps harder (specially this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148, which is too fast for me currently; I get more accuracy with HR than with DT even though the OD is 7).

I think that considering the faster version of the maps harder makes more sense, since they are technically harder. A player that knows how to stream slow or is fast enough to singletap the streams in the low bpm maps would consider them very easy.
You may have a point. Thank you for your answer.
But I don't think you're totally right. the new pp system is supposed to work on individual skill. Why I can't gain pp for trying to be accurate with hr then? I gain PP only by playing dt. More or less. At least I gain pp easier this way. -> It means there's a problem on the calculation of my skill then? My accuracy sucks, there's no way I reached a limit xD.
-> dt > hr (in my case even I find it easier, for the map I quoted at least).

Because yes, my topranks is full of random bad dt plays. while my osutp is full of hdhr for which I spent time, and it was hard to reach this result (FC, acc, etc.) Almost none of those maps are in my toprank PP though.. And I'm talking about insanes maps only, of course.

Here's a draw I made of what I think the system calculation looks like. (ofc, every map is different but osutp made this difference pretty well so... go check it).
This is supposed to be a pyramid.
Here's the version as it is now: http://puu.sh/8GYjs.jpg

And here's my improved version : http://puu.sh/8GYom.jpg

Fair enough I guess.
Last edited by Yales , edited 2 times in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..

What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system

That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard

The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

GoldenWolf wrote:

None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..

What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system

That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard

The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
I'm not saying it's bad! I mean don't get me wrong, when I don't play just to chill I play for tp instead of PP (personal preference) but it's always a bit sad to get some tp for some scores I found really hard and the pp system doesn't acknowledge me this. While it does for the 2 dt maps I play per week. You're saying it's just a coincidence that it's dt maps, i don't know. anyway.

That's it.

" I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though"

Yep.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Yales wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..

What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system

That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard

The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
I'm not saying it's bad! I mean don't get me wrong, when I don't play just to chill I play for tp instead of PP (personal preference) but it's always a bit sad to get some tp for some scores I found really hard and the pp system doesn't acknowledge me this. While it does for the 2 dt maps I play per week. You're saying it's just a coincidence that it's dt maps, i don't know. anyway.

That's it.

" I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though"

Yep.
But tp is pp.

EDIT: outdated pp*
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
DT should be nerfed.
end of story.
DeletedUser_613592
DeletedUser_613592
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/211154

CS6+HR, OD9+HR, lot of jumps, worth only 228pp
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
You can't nerf DT without nerfing maps of similar BPM and difficulty settings. The system treats DT, HT, HR as if they are a map with those difficulty settings.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

dennischan wrote:

DT should be nerfed.
end of story.
Or you should be buffed. DT as a whole should not be nerfed, if anything buffed in some areas. Small notes should be buffed and large notes should be nerfed. Large jumps should be nerfed and fast jumps should be buffed.

END OF STORY NO DEBATE ALLOWED I AM SUPREME LEADER.
felax94
1 post
Joined December 2010
felax94
uhhm well i have a question.
even though i keep on getting PP my rank decrease like when i had 1000~~ i been 38 000 or so and now when i have 1057 i am 40 000 and seem like i can't increase in rank. any tips how to get my rank higher? i usually play hards/insanes in which i get [a/s in hards] and [b/c/a in insanes]


ps: if i wrote in wrong section dont hate me please~~
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Play what other people near your rank have in their top performances.
Ethelon
76 posts
Joined May 2013
Ethelon
Was there a change recently? I didn't see anything in the changelog and I'm sure my ranking already updated when I earned my pp from the other day, but I updated my rank today with a junky score on a new map and went from ~13,100 to 12,477.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

It's the only change I found recently so I doubt it's that
WindowCurtin
17 posts
Joined September 2013
WindowCurtin

Ethelon wrote:

Was there a change recently? I didn't see anything in the changelog and I'm sure my ranking already updated when I earned my pp from the other day, but I updated my rank today with a junky score on a new map and went from ~13,100 to 12,477.
yeah i went from 20k -> 19k as well (without doing anything)
benjacala
56 posts
Joined May 2012
benjacala
probably cus inactive users are not being counted in rank anymore? i think thats it
-Aeryn-
26 posts
Joined June 2011
-Aeryn-
I dropped 384 ranks overnight and this happened:





Something is up there :0

Edit: It's fixed now.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2
Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.

I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
yep it's the significantly lower max combo. i think because holding a combo involves aim, speed, and accuracy [in that order of importance] whereas accuracy is... simply accuracy.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
you have only a bit over half their combo. since combo is still the main way to get score, tom decided that it should also be a big factor in the amount of pp a score gives.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

silmarilen wrote:

you have only a bit over half their combo. since combo is still the main way to get score, tom decided that it should also be a big factor in the amount of pp a score gives.
I see. I knew it was a factor but wow, the pp difference is insane.
casmith789
45 posts
Joined June 2013
casmith789
As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)

So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

casmith789 wrote:

As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)

So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
Hm, interesting. Can Tom confirm/deny this?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Rewben2 wrote:

casmith789 wrote:

As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)

So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
Hm, interesting. Can Tom confirm/deny this?
The scalar from combo is (Your combo)^X / (Max combo)^X where X = 0.8 for standard. It's not quite as strict as (your combo / max combo).
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I remember reading something about this a long time ago, but is there a maximum to the amount of pp someone can hold? I recall reading that 10,000 pp would be the cap, but that sounds inconvenient. Looking at the way this system works, theoretically, if your first 14 top ranks are 1000 pp each, you'd hold 10240 pp solely for those 14 ranks combined (based on the percentages I've seen of my own scores). I doubt that it would cap, but is there anyone who can confirm this?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
id be interested to see the max pp possible then because I remember checking a hackers top ranks and a DT score on airman was well over 800-900 pp imagine every play being that
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
id be interested to see the max pp possible then because I remember checking a hackers top ranks and a DT score on airman was well over 800-900 pp imagine every play being that
The day ppv2 was introduced there were 2 cheaters (who obviously wanted to find this "max" as well) who managed to get 30,000pp in just over 20 maps IIRC.

Adding all 4 mods to a 270 BPM stream map is a totally unrealistic comparison. There is no point to finding this "max."

There is no cap in the algorithm. It's not relative like ppv1 was, in that you don't need opposition to get past a certain pp threshold. That was a soft-cap, but there is no soft-cap either for ppv2. The only cap is the maps available, as said above, which I'd prefer to term "limit." To find that, you'd need to 4mod SS all of them.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I figured. Adding a cap wouldn't make sense. I wonder how many pp the #1 will have next year. Judging from how I can sometimes lose 100 ranks just from idling for 2 days, people are seriously working on their skill. I like how "pp farming" doesn't hold the negative connotation it used to hold. That said, with this incentive given, it looks like we're going to have several very good players in due time.

Also, 4mod SS'ing a map like Image Material isn't humanly possible. I doubt that any amount of practice can enable you to SS a 6-minute map at AR11, OD10, and CS5, with 390BPM streams all over the place - and that is excluding HDFL, which would mean you practically wouldn't even see what you were playing. It's not even worth thinking about getting the maximum pp on maps like those.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain? That would mean that even among SSes, the SS with better spinning would still give more. That'd make the max pp still nearly impossible to get, since I don't know anyone who can spin at 477RPM consistently.
mcdoomfrag
94 posts
Joined June 2013
mcdoomfrag

Tess wrote:

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain?

Tom94 wrote:

It is impossible to find out how good someone has spun without per-hitobject data. If it ever happens there will be a small bonus for spinning well, but it is certain that it will never happen to old scores retroactively. It's simply impossible to recover that data for scores without replays and even the ones with replays would have subtle bugs.

To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry. :(
All maps have a cap, no matter how fast you spin.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
That cap is impossible to humanly obtain on most maps, though. But thanks for answering.
mastaa_p
29 posts
Joined September 2013
mastaa_p

Rewben2 wrote:

Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.

I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it

another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp

third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp

How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

mastaa_p wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.

I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it

another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp

third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp

How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).

Tom posted the formula for max combo. It is pretty harsh yeah, unless you're towards the full-combo mark your pp output is going to get shot down by quite a bit. If you get less than half of the maximum combo you can pretty much say goodbye to your pp. I'm not complaining, the intention is that the combo is the main way of getting score thus it should be a big factor in getting pp, which I understand.

Your first example is rather interesting; the difference is a tiny bit of accuracy and the first score was about 73%~ of the max combo, yet the pp output was about 2.5x higher for the second score. Are you sure those are the exact values you had for both before and after and the pp given? Because that doesn't seem normal. Did you have a few misses on the first score before you fc'd? That could explain it.

The last two examples are rather expected. The second example has pretty bad accuracy and the last one is very far off a fc with also missing acc.
mastaa_p
29 posts
Joined September 2013
mastaa_p

Rewben2 wrote:

mastaa_p wrote:

I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it

another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp

third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp

How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).

Tom posted the formula for max combo. It is pretty harsh yeah, unless you're towards the full-combo mark your pp output is going to get shot down by quite a bit. If you get less than half of the maximum combo you can pretty much say goodbye to your pp. I'm not complaining, the intention is that the combo is the main way of getting score thus it should be a big factor in getting pp, which I understand.

Your first example is rather interesting; the difference is a tiny bit of accuracy and the first score was about 73%~ of the max combo, yet the pp output was about 2.5x higher for the second score. Are you sure those are the exact values you had for both before and after and the pp given? Because that doesn't seem normal. Did you have a few misses on the first score before you fc'd? That could explain it.

The last two examples are rather expected. The second example has pretty bad accuracy and the last one is very far off a fc with also missing acc.
I probably had a miss or two, I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous the weight is on combo as opposed to accuracy or map difficulty (50% combo on a map twice as hard as another with a full combo is worth less than half the fc pp). As to addressing the first example: I can verify that the pp given was around 40 (I was annoyed by this at the time) and the exact figures from the score were 400/535 combo with ~97% acc. Somehow I managed that with 8 misses, no idea how I did that XD.
Oskur
40 posts
Joined September 2012
Oskur

Tom94 wrote:

Let me repeat once again, the system rates the quality of your performance. It is not intended to give a lot of points to plays on hard maps which you can barely pass. Imagine playing the piano. You don't perform in a concert with a damn hard piece, that you can barely play with quite a lot of mistakes.


This doesn't apply perfectly, but the idea is the same; closer to perfect performances are rewarded, breaking combo kind of kills that.
-GN
Champion Above Champions
734 posts
Joined June 2011
-GN
hi, a friend of mine recently improved his score on With a Dance Number [0108 style]:
pic

the supposed improvement was from a 700 combo 96% score to this. he actually lost pp for setting the score, somehow - and i can't think of any possible causes for this happening(not to mention, the map itself is a lot harder than it is credited for, and i'm blaming the difficulty calculation for that). could you look at it and try to find the cause for it? if it was a bug of sorts, it should probably be checked, and if not, i'm not sure what the system is doing, but it can't possibly be what it should do.

e: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1627393 this is the old score that was overwritten - 3 less 100s, but 11 misses as opposed to none, for reference.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,660 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I just want to ask. Does Hidden or Flashlight increase pp in any way? If so by how much?
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2
-GN, that seems like a glitch. Less misses, more max combo, better accuracy, same mods. There's no way it could have possibly given less.

@Monstrata, yes, they do give bonuses. Refer to the wiki page about performance points for an explanation.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

mastaa_p wrote:

I probably had a miss or two, I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous the weight is on combo as opposed to accuracy or map difficulty (50% combo on a map twice as hard as another with a full combo is worth less than half the fc pp). As to addressing the first example: I can verify that the pp given was around 40 (I was annoyed by this at the time) and the exact figures from the score were 400/535 combo with ~97% acc. Somehow I managed that with 8 misses, no idea how I did that XD.
There lies your problem. Eight misses, with or without combo and accuracy, will murder your PP completely. I wouldn't be surprised if that alone is what cut down half of the PP.

This isn't a problem with the system, missing is punished harshly, as it should be. I, too, have a ton of scores with 1 miss, 80~% combo, and 98~% accuracy. Just get over it. Think of it this way, the harder it is to get maximum PP, the more satisfying it is when you get it with a good play.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

-GN wrote:

hi, a friend of mine recently improved his score on With a Dance Number [0108 style]:
pic

the supposed improvement was from a 700 combo 96% score to this. he actually lost pp for setting the score, somehow - and i can't think of any possible causes for this happening(not to mention, the map itself is a lot harder than it is credited for, and i'm blaming the difficulty calculation for that). could you look at it and try to find the cause for it? if it was a bug of sorts, it should probably be checked, and if not, i'm not sure what the system is doing, but it can't possibly be what it should do.

e: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1627393 this is the old score that was overwritten - 3 less 100s, but 11 misses as opposed to none, for reference.

There is no way, that the newer score is giving less pp than the earlier one. I suspect, that your friend lost ranks due to others passing him, while the pp gain from With a Dance Number was just too little to have any effect on his total pp. With a Dance Number not even being in his top100 pp scores confirms that theory.

I do acknowledge, that With a Dance Number should be worth substantially more pp than it currently gives - which is a fault of the difficulty algorithm. Maps with very low spacing and fast singles are currently severely underrated, but I have not found a way to properly fix this without breaking other things far too much.
locuscosecant
1 post
Joined April 2014
locuscosecant
Suggestion: display performance points along with the other measures of performance after clearing a map.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
why does FL HD give more PP than HD HR?



the play was inferior in all respects
i suppose memorizing takes more skill than playing with smaller circles and od10 on a map with fullscreen jumps though so perhaps this is intendedright..
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
It's exactly because the map has fullscreen jumps, they are kinda overrated and on top of that you have the flat bonus from HD + FL given to the aim value

Altough I'd say the HD FL looks more impressive to me than the HD HR score.
jasian
105 posts
Joined January 2013
jasian
I think people forget that when you play with FL, you still have to make those relatively hard jumps. I think FL should give more pp on jumper maps like Airman. Seriously if you could do FL on Airman that's way better than a HD HR play.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
the FL bonus alone is like 50 aim on that map, and the stat that gives the most bonus on hr (acc) was really low on the hr play, so it makes sense that the fl score gives more.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
still seems wrong
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

still seems wrong
just your opinion
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

GoldenWolf wrote:

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

still seems wrong
just your opinion
feedback
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50
The acc on those scores were so low it doesn't even matter (in fact, it wouldn't matter if it was higher because the map i od9 without hr) and FL>HR in terms of aim (i do agree with that and if you don't, it's just your opinion).
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,660 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

Rewben2 wrote:

@Monstrata, yes, they do give bonuses. Refer to the wiki page about performance points for an explanation.

Thanks. I've read the wiki page and now I'm wondering how much more pp will you get from playing on Hidden and Flashlight? Flashlight is clearly more difficult so i'd expect a much higher pp multiplier but is it to the extent of DoubleTime?

Also asking this because I am now playing Hidden to increase some of my scores but i notice my accuracy tends to drop by ~2%. I just want to know if getting a higher score with hidden can still make me lose pp due to a lower accuracy.
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

monstrata wrote:

Also asking this because I am now playing Hidden to increase some of my scores but i notice my accuracy tends to drop by ~2%. I just want to know if getting a higher score with hidden can still make me lose pp due to a lower accuracy.
It's the easiest way to lose pp. When in doubt, don't submit lower accuracy HD scores, especially if you're replacing a 99% with a 97%, or a 1x100 with 3x100.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

monstrata wrote:

Also asking this because I am now playing Hidden to increase some of my scores but i notice my accuracy tends to drop by ~2%. I just want to know if getting a higher score with hidden can still make me lose pp due to a lower accuracy.
This is PPv1 style, since a 96% HD is MUCH easier than an SS no mods and gives more score. You should avoid this now, because HD isn't worth nearly as much PP-wise as it is score-wise.
It's pretty much also the reason I stopped playing HD and started having accuracy OCD.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

monstrata wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

@Monstrata, yes, they do give bonuses. Refer to the wiki page about performance points for an explanation.

Thanks. I've read the wiki page and now I'm wondering how much more pp will you get from playing on Hidden and Flashlight? Flashlight is clearly more difficult so i'd expect a much higher pp multiplier but is it to the extent of DoubleTime?

Also asking this because I am now playing Hidden to increase some of my scores but i notice my accuracy tends to drop by ~2%. I just want to know if getting a higher score with hidden can still make me lose pp due to a lower accuracy.
HD will only compensate for a 1%~ accuracy loss from what I've read, so a 97% HD score = 98% nomod score pp wise. There's more to it of course but I think that's an alright guideline.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Rewben2 wrote:

a 1%~ accuracy loss from what I've read, so a 97% HD score = 98% nomod score pp wise. There's more to it of course but I think that's an alright guideline.
It depends a lot on how hard the aim in the map is and how low the OD is. If you use HD on Airman for instance, then you will most likely gain pp, even if you lose a couple % of accuracy.
Cinagro
30 posts
Joined March 2013
Cinagro
I still feel like I can "game" this pp system because some maps just give so much ranking for a reason I don't really understand (I have not read this thread, so please don't pitchfork me if it's been explained).

There are some scores/full combos with decent accuracy on my page that I'm proud of (Remote Control is the only one really depicted in my top ranks), but I can go FC some very easy TV Sizes/short 1:30-2 minute songs that I see have granted my friends a lot of pp and gain just as much. I know I'm at a lower pp rating than most posting about the system in this thread, but it just feels so silly at times.

A lot of these songs seem to have lots of slow streams/lots of short sliders, as opposed to more jumps and single taps. I don't know if these factors are weighting their score a lot, but that's honestly what it feels like.

I don't mean to be complaining or anything of the sort, just posting my current experience with the system.

Also, are you the Tom94 that released a program to protect against a vulnerability in the first set of Flyff private server files a good six or so years ago? If so, fancy seeing you again here working on this great game.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Cinagro wrote:

I still feel like I can "game" this pp system because some maps just give so much ranking for a reason I don't really understand (I have not read this thread, so please don't pitchfork me if it's been explained).

There are some scores/full combos with decent accuracy on my page that I'm proud of (Remote Control is the only one really depicted in my top ranks), but I can go FC some very easy TV Sizes/short 1:30-2 minute songs that I see have granted my friends a lot of pp and gain just as much. I know I'm at a lower pp rating than most posting about the system in this thread, but it just feels so silly at times.

A lot of these songs seem to have lots of slow streams/lots of short sliders, as opposed to more jumps and single taps. I don't know if these factors are weighting their score a lot, but that's honestly what it feels like.

I don't mean to be complaining or anything of the sort, just posting my current experience with the system.
Would be cool if you could provide examples of scores (user + beatmap) you believe are overrated / underrated. I (and others reading this thread) can than have a look.


Cinagro wrote:

Also, are you the Tom94 that released a program to protect against a vulnerability in the first set of Flyff private server files a good six or so years ago? If so, fancy seeing you again here working on this great game.
Yup, that's me. :)
Cinagro
30 posts
Joined March 2013
Cinagro

Tom94 wrote:

Cinagro wrote:

I still feel like I can "game" this pp system because some maps just give so much ranking for a reason I don't really understand (I have not read this thread, so please don't pitchfork me if it's been explained).

There are some scores/full combos with decent accuracy on my page that I'm proud of (Remote Control is the only one really depicted in my top ranks), but I can go FC some very easy TV Sizes/short 1:30-2 minute songs that I see have granted my friends a lot of pp and gain just as much. I know I'm at a lower pp rating than most posting about the system in this thread, but it just feels so silly at times.

A lot of these songs seem to have lots of slow streams/lots of short sliders, as opposed to more jumps and single taps. I don't know if these factors are weighting their score a lot, but that's honestly what it feels like.

I don't mean to be complaining or anything of the sort, just posting my current experience with the system.
Would be cool if you could provide examples of scores (user + beatmap) you believe are overrated / underrated. I (and others reading this thread) can than have a look.


Cinagro wrote:

Also, are you the Tom94 that released a program to protect against a vulnerability in the first set of Flyff private server files a good six or so years ago? If so, fancy seeing you again here working on this great game.
Yup, that's me. :)
Holy shit that's ridiculous! I used to go by Organic on RZ, but I really doubt you remember me.

Well, I don't know as much if its that I still have room to grow, but these maps just felt really overrated compared to everything else that was at the top of my top ranks. I don't know if length is factored into the score at all, but maybe it should. It would probably be difficult to balance it between very long marathons and TV sizes, but it's probably something you've already considered.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/217253?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/323726?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/245816?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/398341?m=0
Dexus
982 posts
Joined July 2009
Dexus
What's the exact effect of hidden on the calculations? Currently it seems pretty ambiguous. I see it affects aim but to what extent and how? The wiki just says "Hidden and/or Flashlight is active."
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Dexus wrote:

What's the exact effect of hidden on the calculations? Currently it seems pretty ambiguous. I see it affects aim but to what extent and how? The wiki just says "Hidden and/or Flashlight is active."
If those values haven't changed in a while:
HD: 18% bonus Aim value, 2% bonus Acc value.
FL:36% 50% bonus Aim, 2% bonus Acc.
Last edited by Full Tablet , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Tom94 wrote:

Also, FlashLight is giving a 50% aim bonus since the last update (you can find it in the changelog somewhere, it's been a week or two), not a 36% one anymore.
i dont think hd got changed tho
Chipmunk42
13 posts
Joined March 2014
Chipmunk42
Not sure if you care about the easier maps, but https://osu.ppy.sh/b/327673?m=0 seems overrated. Without a doubt the easiest Hard I've so far played (very simple & took 2 tries to SS), yet it's my top score.
Ritzeh
Former osu! Champion: 2016
283 posts
Joined August 2011
Ritzeh


Can anyone explain this?
Broccoly
1,359 posts
Joined May 2012
Broccoly
Hi Tom, could you check this please?
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/213478

If Full Tablet's explanation is true, it needs to be fixed to prevent confusion..
Thanks.
Yuunee
36 posts
Joined September 2013
Yuunee
The new pp system is based on the skill that player has. Which is good. But i still miss ppv1 system :( (That pp system was based on the rank that the player achieved by playing). Still, it's good. (PPV1 seems much more logical to me...) Anyway, good job introducing ppv2 :D
TUOPlays
13 posts
Joined January 2014
TUOPlays
I really prefer ppv2 over ppv1 from what I've seen because it actually feels valid to say that if you have a marginally higher PP than the opposing player you are probably more skilled, rather than just saying someone played more or grinded more ranks.

From all the replays and everything I've seen in top players this is what I think needs to be buffed/nerfed/changed. I'm not a very good player or anything but I guess I still have an opinion

1. Length (in hit objects) need to have more of a value. Players with high stamina in maps should be rewarded more, with some of the hard long maps/marathons actually being pp farmable. If you look at the best scores in osu!tp top 50 scores, there are 11 TV Size DT Scores (13 if you count Killer Song), that seriously popped out of nowhere, and didn't seem to be as hard (didn't take as much retries or effort, from what I've seen in spectating) as some of the longer maps like Freedom Dive or Bikko's HDHR of Mago De Oz.

I decided to think of a couple marathons that would be fucking sick to DT, and what came to my mind was: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108296
This map is a 12 min long marathon that is p popular now, and was the map I personally used to practice AR9.

With that, I used osu!tp to estimate the amount of PP a HD,DT play of this map would be worth (with acc around the lower 99%, because its simply more convinient) and (although I know DT recalculates speed and aim difficulty) DT tends to buff the aim and speed values by about x3, and HD gives a 18% bonus to aim, DT/HD gives a x2.05 buff to Acc from raw estimate, this gives God Only Knows DT a surprisingly low tp value of 379 estimate (probably off, but aroudn that area)

That is less than a DT HD Play of this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/408128 -- a one and a half minute song which gave sayo 435tp after doing it. The stamina required to do all the jumps and rather high BPM streams (specifically at the mars part) seems to be more than the DT sayo did on the previously mentioned map.

The only problems I see are maps like The Unforgiving being worth a jesus load of pp lol.

Well I guess i'll just drop some maps that in my opinion wouldn't be as undervalued if length were to be given a bulk

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25403 - Various Artists - osu! Stream Compilation
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/343741 - Hanatan, yuikonnu & Mitani Nana - Songs Compilation [Rabbit Face]
Every DragonForce map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 - Tatsh - IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0>

ok wall of text 1 is complete, ill try to make no.2 a bit shorter

2. Single Tap maps high BPM whatever

Although Scarlet Rose isn't the hardest map, I have no idea why WWW's HD/HR FC with only 6 100s is rated so low, not even worth 300tp on osu!tp, on a map that where the top 50 aren't even all FCs, or why With a Dance Number gives so little pp. It was mentioned previously in this thread that it should be buffed somehow, but really, val0108's maps really need to be worth more.

I did a similar test to the God Only Knows play, but this time looked at a play that has already been done

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/99094 - Megpoid GUMI - Carnival

Cookiezi HD,DT'd this map (I have no fucking clue how, but he did) Comparing the score on osu!tp of the player, furikake on carnival, which has a similar accuracy to what cookiezi got on the map, and applying the DT estimates of x3 Aim,x3 speed and x2 acc, carnival would be worth an estimate of 353tp. For one of the hardest DTs Cookiezi ever did, that is really little, in comparison to a DT like everyone doing Magic Girl!!, which is worth more tp than Carnival, as Magic girl is more focused on DT Jumps than single tapping like jesus. (mentioning this map because it has a similar length) fast singles definitely need a buff.

3. Just a quick note, FL needs to be buffed on longer maps, as being able to memorize a longer map is much harder than a short map. It's easier to remember a short song with jumps than Flashlight on a marathon.
Melt3dCheeze
186 posts
Joined January 2011
Melt3dCheeze

TUOPlays wrote:

2. Single Tap maps high BPM whatever

Although Scarlet Rose isn't the hardest map, I have no idea why WWW's HD/HR FC with only 6 100s is rated so low, not even worth 300tp on osu!tp, on a map that where the top 50 aren't even all FCs, or why With a Dance Number gives so little pp. It was mentioned previously in this thread that it should be buffed somehow, but really, val0108's maps really need to be worth more.
From single tapping alone, how would you ever deter the player's preference to either alternate or single tap apart from looking at their replays? I believe val maps don't need a buff, they sit perfectly where they currently sit. There are a lot of other maps that are total BM compared to val's.
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake
Clearly scarlet rose should atleast be counted as an extra diff. Still, I think Tom already knows most of the faults in calculating difficulty. It's just really hard to balance some things out without breaking others.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2
A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.
Melt3dCheeze
186 posts
Joined January 2011
Melt3dCheeze

Rewben2 wrote:

A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.
iirc, updates do take some time to be updated to the correct values, it happened to me and a lot of other people. 2 hours is too quick for it to update, it happens where there is a lot of shifting going on.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Melt3dCheeze wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.
iirc, updates do take some time to be updated to the correct values, it happened to me and a lot of other people. 2 hours is too quick for it to update, it happens where there is a lot of shifting going on.
This is correct. The rank shown on the profile doesn't update in realtime.
Chipmunk42
13 posts
Joined March 2014
Chipmunk42

Chipmunk42 wrote:

Not sure if you care about the easier maps, but https://osu.ppy.sh/b/327673?m=0 seems overrated. Without a doubt the easiest Hard I've so far played (very simple & took 2 tries to SS), yet it's my top score.
Follow-up question to this: is accuracy overrated on easier maps, or just these ones?
http://puu.sh/9jbY2/bc674ea36f.png (1 x 100) compared to http://puu.sh/9jc5r/852a77487c.png - double the PP (ignore FL mod--it's negligible). Both this and the other map's scores were SS and are some of my top performances, yet were infinitely easier than the Hard FC's I have which give similar PP.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
accuracy is very heavily weighted on easier maps from what ive seen since OD is a fixed value all maps use and is mainly the metric for calculating the Accuracy worth of a map but Aim/Speed ratings are on a per map basis so if the Aim/Speed ratings on a map are quite low the Accuracy ratings [which goes mostly off OD] are most important. I may be wrong here but I think that's how it works. How else would accuracy be weighted besides OD, slider ratio, and possibly BPM? those 3 dont vary as much as speed/aim difficulty when you compare easy's to extras

also keep in mind your more difficult plays wont always be your most weighted. i've passed plenty of things that i thought were much harder than any of my top 5 plays but got 0 pp because of the 85% or lower acc and sub par combo.. I personally think pp gains should be relative to your other scores so if i did something kind of crazy like pass big black/image material even if i had a 90 combo and 70% acc i'd want it to show up and give more pp than my other plays [even if it meant my other plays got weighted less].

this wouldnt be unfair i dont think, if someone low rank passes something most people his rank cant pass, he should get some boost that elevates him above them somewhat. I think with it being relative to your overall performances, the amount of pp a poor play like that on a very hard map like that would give would be less and less as you ranked up therefore it wouldnt be unfair to other people who played the map and did well since by the time you reach their rank it wont be worth any pp to you.

Juuust my idea... nothing wrong with encouraging people to play at their limit right?
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
It's too hard to give an accurate judgment to a play with low combo and a ton of misses, so they get undervalued to account for the possibility really bad/lucky passes (i.e. missing all of the hardest notes in the map).
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
I agree that we should get pp for simply passing hard songs.
It could work like this:
pp gain from passing freedom dive+senketsu no chikai+ DT warheit
You can just calculate the difficulty to pass those songs:

The formula should be something like this: beatmap difficulty*HP drain*log(longest combo length)
and then we get a fixed amount of pp for each song.
For example, we get 50pp passing freedom dive, 45 for senketsu, and 80 for DT warheit
Then total gain of pp: 80*100%+50*95%+45*90%
then weight them all and then get the pp tweak



Also I think long songs are undervalued a lot.
It takes same effort to hold 200 combo at a long song than an short song at same difficulty, but you gain more pp by playing the short one

200/220 combo at anime opening
200/2000 combo at crazy hard renard song

more pp for anime opening... That just dosen't make sense.
I think we should get more pp from long songs, and it should work exponentially

something like: base^(length of song in minutes)*original pp

and of course FL bonus should scale with the length of the song...
and it should work exponentially also
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

dennischan wrote:

I agree that we should get pp for simply passing hard songs.
It could work like this:
pp gain from passing freedom dive+senketsu no chikai+ DT warheit
You can just calculate the difficulty to pass those songs:

The formula should be something like this: beatmap difficulty*HP drain*log(longest combo length)
and then we get a fixed amount of pp for each song.
For example, we get 50pp passing freedom dive, 45 for senketsu, and 80 for DT warheit
Then total gain of pp: 80*100%+50*95%+45*90%
then weight them all and then get the pp tweak
Getting PP for passing songs is probably not a good idea. Someone who can mash their fingers fast can /probably/ pass chipscape or mad machine or any other crazy stream map (NF easily negates HP, since that's only 0.9*PP) with half-decent accuracy, but that doesn't mean they can play the game.

I agree with the long song / FL stuff, but it'd also overrate easy marathons like this. Dunno, should probably be scaled.

It's hard to determine, though, because a lot of songs are hard not because of the overall difficulty of the map, but rather a single part. For example, Snow Goose would be a piss-easy map if not for the deathstream / short streams near the end. Especially since that stuff is all at the end, getting a combo for the beginning of the map wouldn't be too hard, and thus the map becomes free PP.
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

dennischan wrote:

I think we should get more pp from long songs, and it should work exponentially

something like: base^(length of song in minutes)*original pp
That would make marathons overrated, and length from not-so-relevant would become the only relevant factor for pp. Some marathons are so easy you can hold multiple 1000x combos with no effort at all.

I agree that length is underrated, but I think the length bonus should just decay slower.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Long streams are so overrated it hurts me inside. I spent like 40 mins trying to plot graphs for how the pp bonuses for longer maps could work and 4d comes along every time with it's bullshit and ends up with an insane bonus. The system is meant to measure difficulty to fc the maps and 4d is insanely overrated in that department. I'm either going to assume that the current system takes into account the length but not that well when calculating stars which is making it all go funky OR freedom dive is overrated when it comes to difficulty to FC.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
the mighty jesus has spoken
on topic: why dont nerf long streams
example: CFDgimme/chase the light /4 dimensions whatever
and maybe boost banned forever...
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
I just saw Tom's reply saying that combo is factored as performance*(combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8.)

However I personally think there should be a reasonable amount of pp given just by passing the map itself.

For example - your pp reward= performance*0.35+peformance*0.65*(combo^0.8/combo^0.8)
In this case I counted the "pass" reward 35%, so obviously if you pass a map with 180/1800 combo it would yield you nearly no pp with current system, however this should reward you a bit if the map's difficulty is super high.

maybe this number can be differed according to the HP Drain(and this should be reasonable solution to award high drains slightly more).



think of airman or FD. You barely passed it nomod and gets rewarded no pp.. I find this slightly unreasonable.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50
The problem with just passing is that this system doesn't punish playing with NF, it gives the same PP as playing without it (iirc). Also, I know people that can pass insanely hard stuff when comparing what they can pass to easy maps that they can't even fc (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/120002 + dt vs https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55945 nomod)
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

tfg50 wrote:

The problem with just passing is that this system doesn't punish playing with NF, it gives the same PP as playing without it (iirc). Also, I know people that can pass insanely hard stuff when comparing what they can pass to easy maps that they can't even fc (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/120002 + dt vs https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55945 nomod)


No Fail reduces it by 10%.

Also not sure if jesus is serious when he says 4D is overrated ...
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

nooblet wrote:

Also not sure if jesus is serious when he says 4D is overrated ...
i always thought 4d was one of those ridiculously epic songs and anyone who fcs it should feel quite rewarded for it.. the map is basically osu! lore...

i honestly think the overrating problem is more prevalent on shorter maps like chase the light
Shimatora
30 posts
Joined January 2013
Shimatora

- By zxmuffinxz


- By myself.

I was considering FLing this map to squeeze some more PP out of it but come on. Seriously? SS no-mod is currently considered to be worth more than FL+HD, albeit an S and 1.49% lower accuracy.

~Insert FL-is-underrated-still rant here.~
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
if the map is easy to FL [I.E low aim rating, notes arent too far apart] then FL doesnt give it much PP

presumably hidden acts on aim difficulty too so
Shimatora
30 posts
Joined January 2013
Shimatora
Considering I put a good 100 tries into FL FCing the map earlier, and considering it took me under 20 to SS the map, I'm just finding it hard to believe that a FL+HD with a couple of misses is worth less than a full combo that had none, considering the blind jumps. I'm not expecting it to be worth 200pp or something stupid, I'm just expecting PP to actually reflect the difficulty of a map correctly. Hence my bringing it up. I feel that the PP awarded does no match the skill required to pull off.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
the map is od8 and has virtually no aim rating, it's only natural when you consider the way pp works that this would give less pp.
comparing it with tp, you lose 16 acc and gain 15 aim.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1095 / 2,749