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[added] [Proposal - osu!catch] Relax spread requirements

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Topic Starter
Secre
Hello! This is the second proposal in my set of catch proposals. Each of these proposals are independent of each other for implementation, but some wordings may be interchangeable depending on whether finalized or not.

As it stands right now, there is currently a huge drought of maps entering the ranked section. Anyone who has been even slightly active in the scene can tell that there is drastically less maps being ranked now than there was even a few months ago. This is due to several reasons (waning bn numbers, less mappers, lower quality maps) but I want to try to solve atleast one of these things for now which may have a ripple effect on the others.

The first thing required to make this proposal work is to add a new difficulty to the Ranking Criteria: Deluge. You can read more about this separate proposal here.

The idea is to adopt the time changes from mania's recent change but adding little more restriction to prevent X/XX/XXX spreads. community/forums/topics/1440933?n=1 The proposal is as follows:

If the drain time of each osu!catch difficulty is...
...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Salad,
IF the highest difficulty is a Deluge, a singular Platter, Rain and Overdose are required
...between 2:30 and 3:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Platter,
IF the highest difficulty is a Deluge, a singular Rain and Overdose are required/
...between 3:15 and 4:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Rain,
IF the highest difficulty is a Deluge, a singular Overdose is required.


The reasoning behind adding Deluge into the ranking criteria will be that spreads of excessive difficulties will no longer be required when mapping an extremely high star map (which would now be defined as Deluge). The prior rule "there cannot be any drastically large difficulty gaps between any two difficulties." will ensure that spreads consisting of a Rain, an easier overdose and a harder deluge will not be a thing. This will also allow Deluge's to be mapped as a singular difficulty starting at 4:00, same as Overdoses.

While mania had their own reasonings for these changes (which can be seen in their own proposal), I will go through my own personal thoughts and reasons as why I view this change necessary for catch:

  1. The amount of high-end maps being ranked between the 2:30-4:30 range is staggeringly low. Based off drain time using site search metrics beatmapsets?m=2&q=length%3E150%20length%3C270%20stars%3E7&s=ranked you can see that there are only EIGHT ranked maps that are above 7 stars, with NONE happening in the past 6 months. This is a major problem as you start to have a drought of maps for the players in the highest echelons of the game, leading to burnout from playing either only 2 minute maps where spreads are readily available or 5 minute maps where spreads are not needed. Top player retention is at an all-time low. Having more of these maps will alow more players to break into these higher echelons instead of getting stuck at a wall due to not having any ranked maps within their range to play.
  2. More high end maps. With relaxed spread requirements DOZENS of maps can be ranked WITH EASE if this change were to be pushed, namely some very popular maps including Bunnrei's Hope's and dreams from CWC, Ascendance and Bunnrei's ENDYMION, or even Rocma's {albus} ("Silver" Long ver.). You may be also thinking to yourself, "there's not too many maps that would get ranked with this change!!". That's where I would like to transition into point 3.
  3. MAP/SONG VARIETY - This is the real big selling point. I'm sure that nearly every single mapper in this gamemode has looked at a song, see that its juuuust short of being 5 minutes long, only being 4:54 in drain time then saying "nah I don't want to have to make a spread for that". What about that time when you saw a song that was 3:35 that would make a really cool deluge but you would need to make a platter, rain AND a potential extra overdose if the deluge was too hard? Or maybe that time when you found a really sick jazz song with super complex timings and snaps but making a lower diff would just be immensely tedious at a length of 3-4 minutes? That's where this proposal really shines. By changing the spread rules you are opening up such a wide variety of songs that haven't been explored to their full potential. This will create more interesting maps than we have currently, enticing more people to either join or rejoin the Beatmap Nominators, creating a cycle of increased map flow to ranked.
After seeing the majority of active users either complain about or mention the current spread requirements, I figured its about time for some major change before our userbase has had enough. Hopefully these requirements will be appeasing both to the people who want change and to the people who would rather prefer what we have now.

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4
part 5
-Aku
yes I most definitely support this, catch needs more maps anyways so this would be a big positive change
Mniam
The drain time always had been bothersome to me and I would burn out easily in a quick time so I totally am happy about this proposal
sxy62146214
The drain time issue is always a disappointing point for mappers. I remember back to my days before afk 4minutes mapping is just kind of joke unless mapper really really love this music. Today this is better but still nah.
So why not.
btw I am one of those who really really love long music and willing to map full spread so this won't affect me hahaha
Nelly
wow somebody finally looked at what mania has done years ago to loose RC
hard + imo
Erowdi
agree again <3
rc fox
Yea 👍
Chatie
Most needed change.
Oasix
Please make this happen
GiGas
Catch had the least number of ranked maps for the ranking scene of 2022 so a looser RC would be nice and promote more maps to the ranking scene.
Hivie
big yes
ZiRoX
I would make some slight changes to the proposal.

Change 1

I found the "IF the highest difficulty is a Deluge..." part a bit bulky, since it's added for each specified range. Furthermore, there are no cases where the Ranking Criteria REQUIRES you two map two Platters and/or two Rains, that's mostly an Overdose issue as the difficulty there is more open ended.

So I think you could just add a bullet at the end stating something such as "If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, a singular Overdose is required". Alternatively, if you still want to highlight the singular Platter/Rain part, it could say something like "If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, only one of each difficulty below the highest difficulty is required".

Change 2
For any mode, regardless of what the actual thresholds for drain time are, the last specified range (currently 4:15 - 5:00 for catch) requires the second to last hardest difficulty to be mapped (4th out of 5 difficulties - a Rain in our case). Only when you're above that threshold you're allowed to map the 5th and hardest difficulty on its own.

Considering the current proposal - and assuming the addition of Deluge as an official difficulty makes it through -, it would create a situation where between 3:15 and 4:00 you're required to map the now third to last hardest difficulty, and, above 4:00 you could singularly map the 6th difficulty - entirely skipping the 5th and now second to last difficulty from spread requirements.

It just feels odd that one diff is entirely skipped from spread requirements, so I think there should be a drain time range where you're still required to map the second to last hardest difficulty (Overdose if Deluge proposal goes through).

Counter proposal
Considering the suggested changes, my proposal would be the following:

If the drain time of each osu!catch difficulty is...
  1. ...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Salad.
  2. ...between 2:30 and 3:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Platter.
  3. ...between 3:15 and 4:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Rain.
  4. ...between 4:00 and 5:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an Overdose.
  5. If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, (only one of each difficulty below the highest difficulty is required)/(a singular Overdose is required) (pick just one wording)
This is a middleground that keeps stuff gradual since it's not skipping any intermediate difficulty from spread requirements. It would still also allow a, let's say, 4:00-5:00 10* map to not require a Rain (a ~4-5* diff) along with multiple Overdoses to brigde the gap, instead requiring just a singular Overdose.

However, both Secre's proposal and mine require more clarification on what a Deluge would be, because people could claim their Deluge is an Overdose if it abides by the guidelines (see community/forums/posts/9063808).
muya-
definitely think this is a great idea that should be polished to 100% and put out !!
Topic Starter
Secre

ZiRoX wrote:

I would make some slight changes to the proposal.

Change 1

I found the "IF the highest difficulty is a Deluge..." part a bit bulky, since it's added for each specified range. Furthermore, there are no cases where the Ranking Criteria REQUIRES you two map two Platters and/or two Rains, that's mostly an Overdose issue as the difficulty there is more open ended.

So I think you could just add a bullet at the end stating something such as "If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, a singular Overdose is required". Alternatively, if you still want to highlight the singular Platter/Rain part, it could say something like "If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, only one of each difficulty below the highest difficulty is required".
Agree that change 1 could probably be simplified this way

ZiRoX wrote:

Change 2
For any mode, regardless of what the actual thresholds for drain time are, the last specified range (currently 4:15 - 5:00 for catch) requires the second to last hardest difficulty to be mapped (4th out of 5 difficulties - a Rain in our case). Only when you're above that threshold you're allowed to map the 5th and hardest difficulty on its own.

Considering the current proposal - and assuming the addition of Deluge as an official difficulty makes it through -, it would create a situation where between 3:15 and 4:00 you're required to map the now third to last hardest difficulty, and, above 4:00 you could singularly map the 6th difficulty - entirely skipping the 5th and now second to last difficulty from spread requirements.

I think there should be a drain time range where you're still required to map the second to last hardest difficulty.

Counter proposal
Considering the suggested changes, my proposal would be the following:

If the drain time of each osu!catch difficulty is...
  1. ...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Salad.
  2. ...between 2:30 and 3:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Platter.
  3. ...between 3:15 and 4:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Rain.
  4. ...between 4:00 and 5:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an Overdose.
  5. If the highest difficulty is a Deluge, (only one of each difficulty below the highest difficulty is required)/(a singular Overdose is required) (pick just one wording)
This is a middleground that keeps stuff gradual since it's not skipping any intermediate difficulty from spread requirements. It would still also allow a, let's say, 4:00-5:00 10* map to not require a Rain (a ~4-5* diff) along with multiple Overdoses to brigde the gap, instead requiring just a singular Overdose.
Would disagree with these, the whole idea is making overdose+ spreads more accessible to mappers, if you make 4:00-5:00 req overdose not much would change at the higher SR level. Having that 4:00+ be able to solo diff overdoses and deluges is pretty much necessary

ZiRoX wrote:

However, both Secre's proposal and mine require more clarification on what a Deluge would be, because people could claim their Deluge is an Overdose if it abides by the guidelines (see community/forums/posts/9063808).
yea thats the tricky part... I'd love to just use common sense from BNs/mappers but that probably wont be able to be done

realistically if you are looking at your spread and you think that your top diff is way harder than your Rain, then its probably falling under the Deluge category. Using SR numbers as a comparison (which cant rlly be done for RC reasons), this would be most maps over ~6.2 stars.
ZiRoX

Secre wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

A lot of text
Would disagree with these, the whole idea is making overdose+ spreads more accessible to mappers, if you make 4:00-5:00 req overdose not much would change at the higher SR level. Having that 4:00+ be able to solo diff overdoses and deluges is pretty much necessary
Going from 4:00-4:15 requiring a Platter and 4:15-5:00 requiring a Rain to allowing 4:00+ to have a single Deluge feels a bit overtuned, as you're skipping a difficulty level entirely. By the way, my proposal would still allow Solo diff Overdoses in that range, and when there's a Deluge, it requires one single Overdose instead of a Rain + multiple Overdoses to bridge the gap.
Aryssiel
Strongly agree 👍🏼💯
yeeeter
Having a looser rc would definitely help with the lack of maps that are on catch. I agree.
Hareimu
I definitely agree with all of this as a higher end mapper as well as a spread mapper who feels dread every time they have to map a whole new difficulty over some not accounted for technicality of the drain time that in the most practical terms wouldn't really matter to most of the playerbase

You get my support on that end
Regarding the deluge definition, I think I have a clear cut idea of what defines a difficulty as one comparing it to an overdose that can really not be excused by mappers who want to bypass that requirement, but I'll elaborate more on those in that other thread.
Rocma
THIS GUY STOLE MY IDEA IN DISCORD (jk i asked to share my opinion)

also I 100% agree on this
Dea ex machina
pls just implement this already why do we have to suffer so much
Lacrima
everything sounds reasonable, please yes
Serizawa Haruki
I'm not familiar with the osu!catch mapping scene but from a purely logical point of view I don't think this change (alone) would solve the problem realistically. As mentioned in the OP, there aren't many BNs (and mappers) currently so even with relaxed spread requirements the number of maps getting ranked would be severely limited because the nomination capacity of BNs wouldn't change much except maybe 1 less diff to mod for each mapset. Also, can't the problem of needing a whole spread for longer songs with high difficulties be solved with GDs? Or is the mapper shortage so drastic that finding good quality GDs is nearly impossible? Either way, I think it's crucial to look into the BN issue to understand why there's a lack thereof and how it can be improved. It's probably closely related to the number of active mappers too because less BNs means ranking maps is harder which demotivates mappers who are aiming for ranked. So having more BNs could alleviate the problem overall, while only decreasing the spread requirements comes with the risk of losing some content (less diffs) and excluding some players from certain maps if their skill level isn't high enough.
Topic Starter
Secre

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I'm not familiar with the osu!catch mapping scene but from a purely logical point of view I don't think this change (alone) would solve the problem realistically. As mentioned in the OP, there aren't many BNs (and mappers) currently so even with relaxed spread requirements the number of maps getting ranked would be severely limited because the nomination capacity of BNs wouldn't change much except maybe 1 less diff to mod for each mapset. Also, can't the problem of needing a whole spread for longer songs with high difficulties be solved with GDs? Or is the mapper shortage so drastic that finding good quality GDs is nearly impossible? Either way, I think it's crucial to look into the BN issue to understand why there's a lack thereof and how it can be improved. It's probably closely related to the number of active mappers too because less BNs means ranking maps is harder which demotivates mappers who are aiming for ranked. So having more BNs could alleviate the problem overall, while only decreasing the spread requirements comes with the risk of losing some content (less diffs) and excluding some players from certain maps if their skill level isn't high enough.
1. reducing spread reqs will mean a larger variety of maps will be pushed (rather than just anime tv size or 5 minute marathons), resulting in people wanting to come back to bn (a number of former bns have already posted their approval here above)

2. mapper shortage is that short sadly (in part due to that making spreads is so dreadful currently, and not many people want to make 3-4 minute diffs for a spread diff, and if they do typically theyre not going to be ones of ranked quality)

implementing this actually should increase BN group size and maps overall through the long run
coolkid
Yes please. Saves time for mappers and allows for higher quality ranked maps with less effort and time for the mapper as well
Morusya
yes please
Xinnoh
The wording is objectively bad because it disallows multiple difficulties of the same level, eg I, E, E, X is now unrankable because the expert is not singular.
Instead of "a singular X, Y, & Z are required" to, just use the existing "the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an X"

Also agree with Zirox that allowing anything at 4 minutes is overkill, overdose being required until 5 is fine as is. The RC already states that the longer the song is, the more lax the rules are in regards to spreads, can get away with more.

would go with zirox's wording + what I think would be the most compact form of wording the new rule

  1. If the drain time of each osu!catch difficulty is...
  2. ...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Salad.
    etc etc etc
  3. If the highest difficulty in the map is a Deluge, the level of the lowest required difficulty is increased by one. (Eg. If the lowest difficulty required is a Salad, the lowest required difficulty becomes a Platter.)


That said I don't think TV size maps should be excluded from the salad requirement since they're not hard to make + new players are far more likely to want to play anime songs.

Would would add something like:
If the drain time of the map is less than 1:45, the lowest difficulty cannot not be harder than a Salad, regardless of whether a deluge is present or not.


did some math

I disagree with sub 4:30 deluges only requiring one diff, should still remain at two since it's otherwise going to be significantly lazier to just pick a 4 minute song compared to the other length range.
Also I'd change the time requirement to 4:30 so that it aligns with the other peaks of required drain time.




https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14_2Y621VO_XloY0Hf1PAPhZ_QzTHzRybcMPuSiAEQ1Y/edit?usp=sharing


We did a bunch of discussing in discord, in general we agreed that for difficulties after overdose, there should be more leniancy in their difficulty gaps, which is pretty easy to add to the rc.
Deif
It'd be easier and less wordy to go with the mania approach, and leave the gap Rain-Overdose at the discretion of the BNs and their common sense (it's also regulated within the general RC anyway):

“If the drain time of each difficulty is...”
  1. “...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty of an osu!catch mapset cannot be harder than a Normal.”
  2. “...between 2:30 and 3:15, the lowest difficulty of an osu!catch mapset cannot be harder than a Hard.”
  3. “...between 3:15 and 4:00, the lowest difficulty of an osu!catch mapset cannot be harder than an Insane.”
The options above would also work, but they feel wordy and add some extra conditions they're not really needed imo.
Greaper
I think going for Deif his approach would be a good starting point. As I rather avoid having the RC overcomplicated. Hence, we have the following rule in place to ensure significant difficulty gaps don't occur.
For difficulties above the lowest required difficulty level, the spread cannot skip any difficulty levels and there cannot be any drastically large difficulty gaps between any two difficulties.
Meaning we will add the following to the osu!catch RC rules:
If the drain time of each difficulty is...
  1. ...lower than 2:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Salad.
  2. ...between 2:30 and 3:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Platter.
  3. ...between 3:15 and 4:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Rain.
and the following added to the general RC:
osu!catch beatmaps are bound by a different set of drain time thresholds defined in the osu!catch ranking criteria.
Will open a PR to the github wiki in like 24 hours if nobody is against this change.
Dabbe_01
A tiny correction to point out - "a Rain" would be much more fitting in this context than "an Rain", in regards to how it reads in english

Also, iirc mania already has a bullet about different spread requirements in the general RC, in which case could just edit the existing point instead of adding the proposed one separately

EDIT: I remembered correctly, would rewrite the existing bullet as follows:

> osu!mania and osu!catch beatmaps are bound by a different set of drain time thresholds and other spread rules defined in their respective ranking criteria.
Greaper

Dabbe_01 wrote:

A tiny correction to point out - "a Rain" would be much more fitting in this context than "an Rain", in regards to how it reads in english
Typo my bad


Dabbe_01 wrote:

Also, iirc mania already has a bullet about different spread requirements in the general RC, in which case could just edit the existing point instead of adding the proposed one separately

EDIT: I remembered correctly, would rewrite the existing bullet as follows:

> osu!mania and osu!catch beatmaps are bound by a different set of drain time thresholds and other spread rules defined in their respective ranking criteria.
Indeed can be written like this. Although catch doesn't have any "other spread rules", so have a separate bullet for this would be better. But lets see what the wiki people think about it once I've made a PR for it
Greaper
Hivie
is merged
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