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Time spent on mapping o2jam/osu!mania map lvl 20+?

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Topic Starter
Xcrypt
Okay I didn't really know where to ask this in osu!mania gameplay or here, but I figured here was maybe more relevant.

I am new to mapping, I created some practice maps some days ago and now I started to create my first 'real' map, keeping all the guidelines in mind like bracketing layering pitch etc, trying to combine it with creating a relatively challenging map with fun patterns.
I spent like 3 hours on mapping, and I'm like just finished with the 30 second intro...

Is this a normal amount of time to spend on a map? How much time does it take you to create a more advanced mania map?
Roxas
"Beatmap Projects" is the place where you discuss a project with other people, like compilations, long collabs etc.
Moved in the appropriate section!
PyaKura
@OP

It varies a lot really, depending on the style of song and of course the diff you're mapping. Heavy instrumental musics such as xi's are a bit hard to map because of the number of sounds and the speed/high BPM, whereas a pop song which features simple guitar, piano, drums and what not is more clear and as such is easier to map (and I'm not even talking about some electro songs such as I'm so Happy which are easy as hell to map). I personally spent around 5 or 6 hours (which means I'm rather slow) to map the Insane diff of my senya map. After that it becomes easier to map everything else since all you have to do is adding/removing/rearrange the notes to make the other diffs.

In comparison I tried to map Halcyon by xi, and I only mapped 40 secs after the intro after several hours. Also the speed at which you map depends a lot on your knowledge and your skill, as well as your ability to isolate the sounds to map them, and a lot of other things too. So yeah spending so much time on a map is definitely not surprising for me, especially if it's yoir first map.
Agka
3 to 5 hours on a 5 minute song when inspired.

ps: that doesn't mean it's any less work.
Bobbias
I've been making maps for practice a lot recently too. My mapping speed has increased over the past few weeks. Even a 1:30 TV size takes me probably 3-5 hours for a single diff, depending on how inspired I am. Sometimes I literally can't come up with anything, and when that happens I just go do something else until I feel inspired.

I've probably spent 12+ hours on this: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/132252 but at the same time I've also probably spent ~4-8 hours on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/131706 and probably 12+ hours on this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/132678

So yeah, it takes a while for me to map stuff. i don't understand how Agka can map the way he does so damn quickly.
Topic Starter
Xcrypt
I see. I am mapping some remix of a DOOM II song. Since it's my first real map I'm having a lot of issues trying to make it interesting, but the hardest part for me is this:

For 35-55% of the song, there is a musical pattern that is nearly always similar. They might vary a bit upon it on certain measures, but not much.
There are 4 instruments playing:
drums
bass guitar
lead guitar (however, the patterns played are similar to the bass guitar)
some extremely distorted guitar (you can hear it but it's too vague to map).

For the insane diff (guess it's gonna be around lvl 25-35) I'm mapping drums + bass or drums + lead in those parts.

Now since I'm mapping quite technical, it's hard for me to make it varied enough to keep it interesting. I think I succeeded in it thus far, but I'm only done with 20% of the song and I guess it's gonna get somewhat repetitive later on.
PyaKura
A simple way to avoid repetitive patterns is to ctrl + H them once or twice or move them on other columns
Bobbias
Warning, long post ahead. I've broken it up into parts in spoilerboxes to keep things neat. I'll say this right away: I started of mapping very technically. I've learned that for me, it's very very difficult to keep to the rigid structure that mapping technically usually creates. I also feel that the structure that technical mapping usually feels too rigid and becomes boring to play. I'll touch on how I've changed my approach to mapping and how it's made my maps better in part 3.

Part 1: Music Theory

SPOILER
Ok, I'm not sure how much music theory you know, or how much you know about music production, so forgive me if you already know any of this. In most modern music, measures are usually arranged in groups of 4 or some other even number. 2, 4, 8 and 16 measure patterns (or chunks as I think of them) are the most common lengths. In many cases, the last measure of a chunk is different from other other measures. Now, something else to keep in mind is that sometimes blocks don't follow this formula exactly. Sometimes chunks are made up of a series of measures in a specific order, which is then repeated later on in the song (think about the chorus in a song). There are also cases where a song uses shorter chunks mixed in with longer ones. Sometimes there are sections I would call a chunk which is only one measure long, or even half a measure long. An example would be where a song goes silent for a few beats after a build up. In some cases the silence might only be 2 beats long, making it half a measure long. When this happens it can offset the measure markers in the editor, making the actual measures offset from the measure markers in the editor.

Now, this still doesn't explain why you hear the same pattern over and over as often as you do in that song. The reason that happens is that it's very common to repeat chunks multiple times in a song. Sometimes you might hear the same 4 measure chunk twice in a row, or you might hear it used in 2 or 3 different places in the song, or you might even hear it used twice in a row, and that repeated in different parts of the song (personally when that happens, I think of the whole section as one big chunk made up of 2 shorter chunks).

When you think of the structure of a song, you might think in terms of verses, choruses and bridges, but even music that doesn't follow any sort of verse/chorus structure will usually have a structure made up of chunks. Think about dance music where the song's structure would usually be described in terms of builds and breakdowns.

Part 2: Mapping


SPOILER
Ok, so what does all of this have to do with mapping? Since you're mapping in a technical way you're going to want to repeat the exact same pattern of notes every time you hear the same pattern of sounds in the song. Unfortunately, you can get away with more repetition in music than you can with beatmap patterns.

So now we know 2 things:
  1. We have a problem: we need to find a way to keep the technical nature of our map, but we can't repeat the same note pattern every single time we hear he same pattern in the music.
  2. In order to keep the technical approach to the map, we need to be consistent within the map, so if a chunk shows up again.
First I want to say that a little bit of repetition isn't always bad. You can repeat the same pattern a few times in a row if you need to. But some songs repeat the same chunk far more than that, so you need to find ways to modify your pattern.

Here's how I approach dealing with repeating chunks:
  1. The simplest possible change you can make is to mirror your pattern (select the notes and press ctrl+h you can also flip things vertically with ctrl+v, but I believe this breaks holds). I tend to use mirroring if the chunk is long.
  2. The next thing you can do to your pattern is shuffle the columns around. Move every note on one column to a different column. I tend to prefer to use this if we have
  3. Now, let's say that we have an 8 measure long chunk that repeats twice in a row, and happens twice in the same song. That would mean that if the first 7 measures of the chunk are identical and the final one is a variation, we have (7 + 7) * 2 = 28 measures with identical patterns, and 4 other measures (one at the end of each chunk) with a similar but different pattern. What I do when I have something like this is maybe repeat the basic pattern 7 times for the first chunk, rearrange it for the 7 identical measures in the second block, then mirror the entire 2 chunk section next time it comes around. And for the 4 measures left over at the end of each chunk, I might use the same pattern (exact same).
A quick note about when (and when not) to use this approach:

You don't always need to use this approach for everything. I try to only do this stuff on longer songs (3mins+) and take a less technical approach for shorter stuff. I don't usually bother reusing a pattern this way in a TV size because it's short, and repetition would make it feel even shorter and less interesting. I also suggest only reusing one pattern like this, even if there is more than 1 chunk that repeat. The player can recognize when a pattern has been reused like this, and that lends more emphasis on the patterns you are reusing. If a song has a verse/chorus structure, and both the verse and chorus end up with repeating chunks (repeating the chorus means the chorus chunk repeats, and verses often have repeating chunks if music with the difference being only in the vocals) its often best to use this approach for the chorus, and map the verses in very different styles. This will make the chorus stand out more because the player will recognize the reused patterns from last time. If both the verse and chorus had reused patterns, it the fact that a pattern is reused in a modified way loses it's emphasis, and makes a map feel more dull and less creative.

Part 3: General advice


SPOILER
I believe the most important advice I can give you is to figure out the structure of the song: where the chunks are; how many measures each one lasts; how many times the same chunk appears in the song, etc.). Learn how the chunks of the song are put together and you can come up with ideas of how to change your pattern based off that. I try to ensure that my patterns only rearrange columns when a new chunk starts. When you align changes in your patterns based on when a new chunk begins. Often I use bookmarks in the editor to mark where chunks are, so I can visually see how far through a chunk I am. You don't necessarily need to be insanely overly technical about figuring out the structure but having a sense of how the song is written makes it easier to understand the dynamics of the song, and that helps you make your map fit the feel of the song better. These things might seem like too many small details, but think of it like this: you don't need to know how to play guitar or know music theory to appreciate a great solo, but if you're going to write one, you should at least need to know how to play the guitar, and knowing music theory can help you understand how to write that amazing solo. When you're mapping, learning little details about the song and using them to help your patterns feel like they fit better even if most players can't understand why it feels right, they can still tell whether it feels right or not.

The next piece of advice I'd offer you is that in most cases, the only way to truly learn to map is to simply place patterns you think would be good, test play it to see if it feels weird or doesn't have the kind of flow you want it to, and either leave it be if you like it, or make some changes if you don't. Sometimes I just move a few notes to different columns, sometimes I completely remap an entire chunk multiple times until I get something I like.

Your patterns create a sort of "dynamic" just like music has. Some songs start soft and build up slowly, some start right away and don't let up, some have sudden changes in the music or the tempo. Your map should mirror the song so that the parts that stick out in your song also stick out in your patterns. As an example if you're mapping dubstep, you probably want the patterns at the drop to be the big "moment" in your map, just as it is in the song. Of course, mapping is still a creative process, and sometimes you can actually create a "moment" at some other part of your map, but it's much harder to make that feel right than it is to go by where the song puts "the moment".

Every song is unique, so every map you make should be just as unique.

The best way to come up with new and interesting patterns (and to learn which patterns work, and which ones don't) is to think of some sort of rule to follow that prevents you from making the kind of pattern you would normally have used. Some of my maps I started with the rule that I would use holds as often as possible, or that I would map part of it symmetrically, or maybe that I couldn't use any holds (or could only use them in very limited situations) depending on what my first instinct would be. This forces you think more creatively because you have to actually think rather than just use your first instinct.

And finally don't be afraid of your map being bad. I've got 8 submitted maps, one of which I was seriously trying to get ranked. When I look back on those (and my other unsubmitted maps) I really do feel that they're worse than my newest maps. I'm not really bothered that I never did get that map ranked because I feel like if I can finish a full diff set now, it would be much better than that map anyway (I'm referring to the map in my signature here, I need to update that sometime). Don't be too hard on yourself if your map turns out to not be that good. Just try to remember what parts in it were good, and try to understand why they were good.
Part 4: Conclusion

So, to recap my main points:
  1. Modern music is usually made up of "chunks" which are made up of measures in some sort of pattern.
  2. Depending on the song, a good rule of thumb is that you can repeat the same pattern for the length of a chunk.
  3. Use horizontal mirroring and column rearranging to spice things up while keeping the pattern as a variation on your basic pattern. It's easy to recognize when someone has simply rearranged the columns, or mirrored something, but it still keeps things interesting.
  4. Figure out the overall structure of the song, and use this to help figure out how to map the repetitive parts. I like to use bookmarks to mark the beginning/end of each chunk.
  5. Use this technique to emphasize a part of the song that repeats. Sometimes it's better to come up with completely new patterns instead of reusing old patterns.
  6. Reusing a pattern too much can make a map boring.
  7. Pay close attention to the small details of the song. The player might never consciously notice something you did because of a small detail, but it can still make the map feel better to play.
  8. Mapping is a learning process, and sometimes the best way to learn what works and what doesn't is to do things you would never do.
  9. Don't think about how good your map is until you're finished. Don't get hung up on trying to make something absolutely perfect the first time around. Remember: you can always go back and make changes to something.
(This post took far longer than I thought I'd end up spending on it x.x)
Topic Starter
Xcrypt
That was one hell of a wall I had to go through, but a good read nonetheless :p I can definitely use some of the tips you mentioned.
I do have a question though: you mentioned it's better to make only one pattern repetitive, emphasize on chorus.

My song has a both a repetitive chorus and repetitive chunks :p Since I don't really have much choice on what instruments to map, I can't really apply much variation to either of them. I will try to use the column switcheroos, but I think that might destroy my pitching.

Anyways, I'll try and see what I end up with. Is there anywhere I can get feedback on my map? I mean people never actually commented or downloaded my practice maps when I just placed it under submitted. I would really like some people to playtest it and get some feedback when I'm done. Also, what is this modding thing people are talking about?

Yeah I know a lot of different questions in one post xD
Bobbias
Sure, I can play test it. I might be able to give you some ideas on how to work with the patterns too, but no guarantees on that. I need inspiration to really come up with anything half decent.
PyaKura
Bobbias, your WoT right there should be added to Hanyuu's mapping tutorial as additional or advanced informations, seriously.
Bobbias
I've started making edits to expand it and turn it into a more complete guide. This post was only covering a specific issue although much of what I discussed is relevant to all mapping styles, not just technical mapping.
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