Hello Everyone!

After discussing with all mania NATs and multiple the mania BNs, we have decided to propose a clarification on the rule that has historically made custom hitnormal mandatory for mania maps to be ranked.

In the general RC "mandatory hitsounds" rule, the exception about osu!mania doesn't clearly state the hitnormal as mandatory, which could cause confusion and misunderstanding for mappers and modders. Enforcing custom hitnormal has already been done in mania for a many years, so we felt the need to actually clarify the wording for everyone involved in the ranking process.

Enforcing custom hitnormal has the purpose of giving a better experience and avoid obnoxious feedback from default hitnormal in mania, which has a much higher object density compared to other modes, in order to provide a better experience to users that play with hitsounds. Similarly, some skins don't have a custom hitnormal or have a blank hitnormal, so custom hitnormal will help providing feedback.

As it stands currently, the RC read as follow:

1. Beatmaps must be hitsounded. Hitnormals give feedback to the player, and additions (whistles, claps, and finishes) accent the most important parts of the music.
   
   1. osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions. This is to allow for easier approachability to osu!mania mappers of different upbringings. It is still highly recommended to use hitsound additions to improve the feel of your beatmaps.

and after discussing among the osu!mania BN and NAT, we propose the following clarification by making it 2 separate rules in similar method as osu!mania spread rules, and propose it this way:

1. Beatmaps must be hitsounded. Hitnormals give feedback to the player, and additions (whistles, claps, and finishes) accent the most important parts of the music.
   
   1. osu!mania beatmaps are bound by a different set of hitsound requirements defined in the osu!mania ranking criteria

And instead detail these two points more cleanly in the mania specific RC, as below:

1. osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions. but using them is recommended to improve the audible feedback of your beatmaps.
2. A custom hitnormal sample must at all times override the default hitnormal. Using the default hitnormal can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density and concurrent objects.

The purpose of the thread is to discuss regarding the current proposal. We welcomed any feedback from you guys, be it creating another proposal for an alternative or more clear wording.

For the github PR, anyone can refer to this link for clarification: https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/8263

Funny discussion for discussions purpose.
Anyway good change for clarifying already existing unwritten rule

Of course I'm the one to already have PRed this representing the NAT in Github after we decided between NAT and BN, but it's important that I show my support here too. A needed clarificacion for something that is already an unwritten rule, a best practices, and a standard de facto

go go go

Generally support, but two things that I'm gonna try and explain as best I can

1) "Avoid replacing the hit finish in soft/normal samplesets with frequently used custom hitsound samples. Using these finishes to represent snare/bass drums or a song's melody can sound obnoxious for anyone disabling beatmap hitsounds. Replacing hit whistles/claps is recommended because those samples are used more often. osu!taiko beatmaps are exempt from this guideline and have their own mode-specific hitsound sample guideline."

As this already exists within the RC and the final sentence is 95% similar to what we're trying to say here, is it worth rewording to be more in line with this?

2) Feel like a devil's advocate throwing a spanner in the works for this one

"A custom hitnormal sample must at all times override the default hitnormal. Using the default hitnormal can become obnoxious to players due to the game-mode's high object density." (game mode is not hyphenated btw)

This only makes sense with respect to the normal sampleset here; the soft and drum sets still have viable non-intrusive hitnormals that can still be used without needing to override them. For example, Feerum is known for using the default drum-hitnormal (albeit overridden rather than not having the sample there at all) within the majority of his maps.

Would this then imply that this sample can't be used at all, or only when present as a sample in the beatmapset folder?

Personal and rather niche example: if I now tried to rank this set, which was done for an official contest that explicitly forbid custom hitsounds, what happens when this rule change [as it is currently written] goes live?

Unless this refers to having no hitsound additions at all in which case that should be specified? (As I don't think that clause exists in RC right now, unless I'm blind)

Asherz007 wrote:

As this already exists within the RC and the final sentence is 95% similar to what we're trying to say here, is it worth rewording to be more in line with this?

That rule is unrelated to this topic, it mainly talks about not using the "F" hitsound sample slot for something like layering your custom hitsounds' kicks, because if someone doesn't have beatmap hitsounds enabled they're gonna be bombarded by default hitfinishes when playing LMAO

Asherz007 wrote:

Would this then imply that this sample can't be used at all, or only when present as a sample in the beatmapset folder?

Personal and rather niche example: if I now tried to rank this set, which was done for an official contest that explicitly forbid custom hitsounds, what happens when this rule change [as it is currently written] goes live?

Other contributors to this proposal can correct me if wrong, but the basic idea is to target the default hitnormals specifically, as it's the hitsound that you're forced to constantly hear even if there are no additions. Using the default additions is less of a problem, as additions appear only as spare highlights, and in situations when even custom ones could become obnoxious (e.g. snares every 1/8th), the mappers and BNs already tend to agree on simplifying the hitsounding to avoid this.

Also no special condition is specified so you can assume the idea is to avoid the default hitnormals in all ways

Nevertheless those are good insights, thanks asherz

(Also I have editted out the hyphen in "game mode", my bad, thanks for pointing that out)

Asherz brings up a good point about the default soft and drum samplesets having non-intrusive hitnormals. I've seen in the past (more commonly in 2014-2016 maps, I'm not sure about now) mappers use the default soft-hitnormal sample as their custom hitnormal for hitsounding (example). I think it's well established that the default soft-hitnormal is fine, but the current proposal would make using it as a custom hitnormal not allowable, or at the very least an undefined loophole.

Quenlla wrote:

Also no special condition is specified so you can assume the idea is to avoid the default hitnormals in all ways

I think it might be worth considering if this proposal is banning all default hitnormals in place of a quieter/non-intrusive custom hitnormal even though the soft sampleset (and to an extent, the drum sampleset) hitnormal already work pretty well for this purpose.

Regardless, this proposal has my support.

agree with asherz regarding default hitnormal, more clarification is needed in wording.

i think the main problem is not having a custom hitnormal, i think its fine to use default sample as custom hitnormal, the problem is people with different skins will get different sounds if you dont provide custom hitnormal.

default or custom hitnormal doesnt matter, its about whether the actual sample fit the song or not. case by case basis and subjective judgment of BN.

as a not-mania-player all I've got to add is that it seems weird to disallow something that the game provides by default. the default hitsounds' main purpose is to be a decent fallback option, so if there is wide agreement that this sample sucks for most maps, then I think it should be changed

this practice also ignores players that disable map samples and use a skin without samples (e.g. default skin), since they'll still hear the default hitnormal for whichever sample set is active. turning off custom hitsounds shouldn't make the experience bad

I think mappers have settled on an awkward solution that should have been fixed by developer instead
and this feels like too common of a situation on this forum

i dont think any sample can fit all songs, especially not the default sample is bad for most songs in my opinion

hitnormal as opposed to clap, whistle, finish, is the most frequent one in the song usually, so when its annoying its very annoying -> more important to choose a fitting one for the song

-> the purpose of this rule change is force mapper or BN to think more which sample is best fitting for his/her song to rank instead of being ignorant and use default one.

-> also the purpose is to clarify the RC for something that is common sense in mapping community so new mappers don't get confused.

but we shouldn't eliminate the possibility that one takes the default sample and use it as custom hitnormal.

if player wish to ignore map sample and use their skin sounds for all songs, that is fine, player can do that, this change in RC wont prevent that.

Wouldn't that be easier to let the mappers have a place to download the default samples so they can put it on their map?
If they like the default sample, and wished to use the said sample for their map as well as intended to have said sample as part of player's hitsound feedback on the map, it can be a custom to make the sample consistent across all plays too?

Because if they really wished to use the default sample but not bother seeing through that the skin changes sample sounds too, it's pretty much counter-productive to their own creation.

Basically, we/they can, simply put said default sample into the map folder and it should be done. Imo is the best way to solve this.

Clayton wrote:

I think mappers have settled on an awkward solution that should have been fixed by developer instead

I can agree with this, but 15 years into the game and with stable being "feature locked" I think everyone has assumed that we won't be able to force a hitnormal change for only mania

Regarding the situation of using the default hitnormal sample as an override in the map folder, I think it's a valid concern, so we can perhaps add some clarification to the current wording

1. A custom hitnormal sample must at all times override the default hitnormal. This helps create a more predictable and personalized audible feedback for players.
   
   1. Using the default hitnormal as the override is discouraged, since it can become obnoxious due to the game mode's high object density.

anyone can think of a cleaner wording?

Quenlla wrote:

1. A custom hitnormal sample must at all times override the default hitnormal. This helps create a more predictable and personalized audible feedback for players.
   
   1. Using the default hitnormal as the override is discouraged, as it can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density.

one thing i think we don't need is to fold that stuff into mania-specific. It isn't too complex to keep in general RC imo. and for the second sentence it can merge into the first one.
also osu's default hitnormal audio files with skin's default hitnormal audio should be distinguished.

1. osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions, but a custom hitnormal sample must at all times override skin's hitnormal. This helps create a more predictable and personalized audible feedback for players. Using the default hitnormal sample as the override is discouraged, as it can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density.

also should we have something to prevent from hitnormal being too loud in mania? it can create really loud sounds when playing chords.

Something a little further:

YuEast 2018 wrote:

one thing i think we don't need is to fold that stuff into mania-specific.

This was a direction from the wiki reviewers after we initially PRed what you suggested. The idea is to fold it into the mania RC in order to not clutter the General RC page with mode-specific things. I think it's a fair point

I think this proposal may be better off as a guideline with all the discussion surrounding whether people will just use the default hitnormals for their custom override. That way it allows the mapper flexibility to choose one of the default hitnormals if it works for their map without needing to arbitrarily add that sample to the song folder to satisfy the proposed custom hitnormal override requirement.

It also gives the responsibility of the final judgement call to nominating BNs on whether or not the sample is appropriate while still having a basis in the RC for them to lean on as justification.

I personally think this proposal is mostly targeting the default normal-hitnormal despite the non-selective language used (and for good reason as the default skin sample is aggravatingly loud which is a pain for dense maps).

I see this as a quality of life change for people who play with map samples enabled and hitsounds on which appears to be only a small subset of the player base. I think the change to the RC should be as non-invasive as possible to the majority of the player base who either have hitsounds disabled or always override map samples with their skin samples, and the way to do this is by making it a guideline that strongly encourages adding a custom hitnormal, but allows flexibility for the default hitnormals if the mapper really wants to, within reason.

Protastic101 wrote:

I think this proposal may be better off as a guideline with all the discussion surrounding whether people will just use the default hitnormals for their custom override. That way it allows the mapper flexibility to choose one of the default hitnormals if it works for their map without needing to arbitrarily add that sample to the song folder to satisfy the proposed custom hitnormal override requirement.

This can work under the assumption that using the default samples as-is and using them as overrides of themselves is going to work exactly the same for every possible setting combination (custom hitsounds enabled and disabled + skin hitsounds present or absent). Does this assumption hold true?

As it is worded now in the main post, i would definitely disagree with the proposal.

As other already stated out. This would pmuch ban the usage of default hitnormal at all. And i feel it is nonsense to ban something the game provides by default.
And let's not forget that, as far as i know, osu!lazer gets a completely new set of default samples. These would be banned then too =/

Furthermore there are cases where the default hitnormal sounds can fit a song pretty well. And using them wouldn't be possible anymore.

Quenlla wrote:

A custom hitnormal sample must at all times override the default hitnormal. This helps create a more predictable and personalized audible feedback for players.

1. Using the default hitnormal as the override is discouraged, since it can become obnoxious due to the game mode's high object density.

This sounds much better to me, although i do not like the word "discouraged" here, as it still gives the somewhat of a "It's not allowed" - feeling
Maybe something like

The default hitnormal should be used with caution to overwrite as it can become obnoxious due to the game mode's high object density.

Re Quenlla, I'll break it down into the edge cases I've mentioned, assuming that regardless of the player's skin, they have some sort of hitnormal whether it's the default or something else entirely:

1. Map HS overrides skin HS - the default hitnormal and the custom-but-still-default hitnormal are the same.
2. Map HS doesn't override skin HS - the default hitnormal and the overridden hitnormal are not the same. It wouldn't matter if they have a custom override that is the same as the default sample because the player will only hear their skin's hitnormal. In this case, as long as the mapper is using one of the non-intrusive hitnormals (soft or drum sampleset), then I don't think it's their responsibility to account for if the player has a skin on with an annoying hitnormal sample.

Feerum wrote:

As other already stated out. This would pmuch ban the usage of default hitnormal at all. And i feel it is nonsense to ban something the game provides by default.

I agree that I dislike the current language which outright bans using any of the default hitnormals when it's really only the default normal-hitnormal that is problematic in the majority of maps with densities greater than an easy. The default soft-hitnormal has a history of being used in osu!mania and has been well-established as non-intrusive, even in dense maps, so outright banning it with the current language seems backwards.

If the default-hitnormal weren't so loud and obtrusive, I doubt this proposal would have been needed in the first place. So far, it hasn't been addressed if the default soft-hitnormal and drum-hitnormal would be allowable as they are quieter and softer samples. A blanket ban on them would be a step backwards in the quality of life this proposal is supposed to give.

Feerum wrote:

The default hitnormal should be used with caution to overwrite as it can become obnoxious due to the game mode's high object density.

I do highly agree with this wording. It is more lenient to let a mapper have a choice whether they can use the sample or not, how it currently is, it's just telling mappers "do not use this hitnormal" while not taking into account various possibilities and scenarios that occur where this sample can be used (you could take for example any of FA Mage songs and see how this hitnormal fits).

It is mostly dependent on density and majority of the times mappers do not exert this kind of density with maps and it could even be beneficial to use it instead of others.

Quenlla wrote:

This can work under the assumption that using the default samples as-is and using them as overrides of themselves is going to work exactly the same for every possible setting combination (custom hitsounds enabled and disabled + skin hitsounds present or absent). Does this assumption hold true?

Are we only taking into account the default osu! skin for this proposal? Or are we considering other skins besides the default that players may use? In the first case, we already have those hitnormals in the skin folder, the addition of the same hitnormal to a map folder will only replace your skin hitnormal with the one added on said folder. So in fact it is going to work the same for every setting combination, since on one side turning off custom hitsounds will revert back to skin hitsounds and vice versa if you decide to use custom hitsounds which are the same sample. In the second case it becomes responsibility of the player to chose a skin that they feel comfortable with when playing (if they chose to disable map hitsounds of course).

I feel like this is still relying too much on people enabling custom hitsounds. Restating from my earlier post --- turning off custom hitsounds shouldn't make the experience bad

Protastic101 wrote:

then I don't think it's their responsibility to account for if the player has a skin on with an annoying hitnormal sample.

yeah, anyone can make their skin use annoying sounds, but this is encouraging people to make the map sound annoying with skins that aren't using exceptionally annoying or unexpected sounds (e.g. default)

just because skins can use whatever sounds they want doesn't mean maps shouldn't try to accommodate for what the sounds are expected to be --- for example, another RC rule says you can't spam custom hitfinishes because that sound is expected to be rarely applied, like a typical crash cymbal, found in the default skin

-----

basically I think that no rule should rely on custom hitsound samples because that is an 100% optional part of the game.

After i read the discussion, i do agree about the opinion being brought here, and it's also something that i've been thought about for some time.

Regarding making the rule to be guideline, while i understand where you guys coming from in order to enhance the flexibility of the usage of default hitsound, but the problem is that, mania is the mode with the lowest amount of care when it comes to hitsound, compared with other modes. No one will actually bother to follow it in the first place, if it doesn't have some sort of strictly enforced being imbued with the proposal. Even in the BNG, the amount that actually really cares about hitsound are pale so short in comparison as well.

People that already being involved in mania community for some time, must understand what i said, when i mentioned about how mania people have very low care in terms of hitsound to the point we had one time in 2020 era, where FAMoss single handedly carrying entire mania modes for hitsound aspect. If it doesn't being enforced as rule, no one will bother to obey, and it's just the same as not having the guideline in the first place.

--------------------

That being said , i do acknowledged the concern that's being brought up, and i definitely agree that default hitsound should have place in mania as well.

I think let me try propose another solution from different angle, so we can have another discussion about this.

How about we make it so that people who wants to use default hitnormal, need to export the default hitnormal themselves as custom hitnormal?
So basically you will have custom hitnormal that sounded exactly the same as default hitnormal that you want to use in your map.

This basically solves quite a lot of things that's being raised:

1. People that want to use default, will still able to do that, from having custom hitsound that sounded like default, so they won't be blocked from having default samples at all.
2. This will also encouraged people to be more caring on choosing the samples that they find fit for their map, rather than randomly uses whatever default just for the sake of it.
3. For people who uses another different skin, they will still get the feedback that the mapper intended, as oppose to the default one who will usually get overridden by skin sample.

-----------------------------

Basically the new word that i might suggest will be something like this:

A custom sample must override the default sample at all times. This serves the purpose of ensuring different skin will always result in the same feedback. In the case of default sample(s) being preferred for the beatmap, export it and use it as custom sample(s).

Let's hear what others think about this.

I think a key part of the rule should still be highly discouraging the use of the default hitnormal (specifically the normal-hitnormal) because it is universally agreed that it is terrible for the mode

Being more specific in the wording can probably work to address the concerns here

1. A custom histound sample must override the default hitnormal at all times. This ensures uniform and adequate feedback across different skins.
   
   1. The default `normal-hitnormal` should be avoided as an override, since it can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density.

(How do you put inline codeblock in forum bbcode lol)

Overall i would agree with this idea/proposal, as i believe using custom hitnormal has been a majority common sense in mania community. More reasons like how terrible some default sample is, have already been discussed much above.

But as the concern raised above, i'd like to agree that we can't completety ban the usage of default sample, which is unfair. i think the core point of the proposal should be just enforcing mappers/BNs to find a sample that they think it would match the song in game-play due to mania mode's special element. So since it would be necessary to make it as a rule, there should be space left in case default sample works well. Thus basically the rule should be equal to that you need to have at least a hit-normal file (which means to be chosen) in the song folder and being applied for every object.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

However, i feel there is a vague point that, should this rule be applied to other samples (WCF) as well in case there are hitsound addtion usage, or only hit-normal? Just notice that there are some different wording about this in the discussion above, so want to bring it up. If this is only for hit-normal (i believe this is the original purpose?), i think it would need to be specified in the wording.

Maxus wrote:

How about we make it so that people who wants to use default hitnormal, need to export the default hitnormal themselves as custom hitnormal?
So basically you will have custom hitnormal that sounded exactly the same as default hitnormal that you want to use in your map.

This was brought up earlier and while I'm not entirely for it as I think it's a bit redundant having to add a custom sample that is just the default sample, it seems to be the only suggestion thus far that addresses the original issue of this proposal outright banning the default hitnormals and offers an alternative that still discourages its use, but makes it the choice of the mapper.

@Quenlla, you've yet to address most of the potential issues and points that other people have brought up with the wording and implications of this proposal. I've summarized the key ones below as I know it can be difficult to keep track of all that's been brought up so far:

1. Asherz - The current wording bans the usage of all default hitnormals, when the normal-hitnormal is the one that gets called into question as a hitnormal due to its intrusiveness in denser maps. Soft and drum default hitnormals are less obtrusive and have a place as a potential hitnormal.
2. Drum-Hitnormal - The main issue is not having a custom hitnormal at all which makes it too variable with people's variety of skins and corresponding skin hitnormals for the mapper to reasonably choose a default hitnormal that won't irk the majority of players.
3. clayton - Disallowing something that comes basekit with the game seems odd. What of players who disable map samples and use skins without a skin-hitnormal? Regardless of if there is a custom hitnormal or not, these players will still hear the default hitnormals, so the issue still persists.
4. Akasha- - If a mapper truly wants to use the default hitnormal, they should be allowed to use that as their custom-hitnormal regardless of player skin or map HS override options.
5. YuEast 2018 - More generally, a guideline advising players not to use a very loud hitnormal would be helpful. My own note here, this is really important for higher keymodes that use large (4+ notes) and consistent chords.
6. Feerum - Similar to Asherz, there are cases in which the default hitnormals are actually very fitting, but the current proposal wording now disallows this. osu!lazer also has a different set of default samples, so this the effect that this proposal has in the future is worth considering as well.
7. Antalf - Some leniency should be allowed for mappers to use the default hitnormals if it truly does fit with the song, so the wording shouldn't be so harsh in its discouragement of the default samples.
8. Maxus - Proposing that custom overrides be required, but players can have the default hitnormal be their custom override if they want. Similar to Akasha's suggestion.
9. gzdongsheng - Rather than directly ban the default hitnormals, we should word it so that it enforces mappers/BNs to find a fitting sample. If a fitting sample would be one of the defaults, then it should be allowable. And is the discussion only for the hitnormals, or the WCF samples as well?

Feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted anything that anyone said.

Overall, I think the main points of discussion right now can be summarized as follows:

1. Default hitnormal usage can be discouraged, but should not be entirely disallowed as there are uncommon cases where the default hitnormals actually do fit with the map.
2. As a compromise, should custom overrides always be required, but with the option of using the default hitnormal as the custom override?
3. How do we consider the case of player skins and overriding map samples with skin samples? Should language be included to take this into consideration?

I would appreciate some or all of these points being addressed fully and clearly as it currently seems that you are of the favor of highly discouraging default hitnormals (is this the normal, soft, and drum hitnormals, or just the normal-hitnormal?) and requiring a custom override regardless of how well fitting one of the default hitnormals may be for a song without having explicitly responded to the other valid points others have brought up.

My most recent post with its corresponding wording should already cover most of the compiled concerns. Now, if the proposed wording is something along the lines of:

1. A custom hitnormal sample must override the default hitnormal at all times. This ensures uniform and adequate feedback across different skins.
   
   1. The default `normal-hitnormal` should be avoided as an override, since it can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density.

where must may be replaced by should if we want to make it a guideline (depends on whether we want to enforce or not overrides):

Prot wrote:

1. Default hitnormal usage can be discouraged, but should not be entirely disallowed as there are uncommon cases where the default hitnormals actually do fit with the map.
2. As a compromise, should custom overrides always be required, but with the option of using the default hitnormal as the custom override?

Above wording already covers this. If this looks ambiguous, we can cover our backs specifying that the chosen hitnormal override is to be an adequate one (this obviously encompasses subjectivity, but it's unavoidable if we want to specify fittingness of the sample into the clause). A couple reasonable posibilities to account for this can be:

1. Wording option 1:
   
   1. An adequate custom hitnormal sample must override the default hitnormal at all times. This ensures a uniform and predictable audible feedback in beatmaps.
      
      1. The default normal-hitnormal should be avoided as an override, since it can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density.
2. Wording option 2:
   
   1. A custom hitnormal sample must override the default hitnormal at all times. This ensures a uniform and predictable audible feedback in beatmaps.
      
      1. Given the game mode's high object density, this sample must be adequate for the song and not obnoxious for players. Due to this, the default normal-hitnormal is discouraged as an override.

Prot wrote:

1. How do we consider the case of player skins and overriding map samples with skin samples? Should language be included to take this into consideration?

This looks like something we cannot control, and frankly we shouldn't try to, right. Mappers and BNs include custom hitsounds (and more specifically custom hitnormals) as a service for players so they get a more adequate hitsound feedback. If these players choose to not use these provided custom hitsounds by disabling beatmap hs or using their skin hs, this change does not affect them, neither in a negative nor in a positive way; this is the inteded behaviour of skin hitsounds and the in-game hs options after all.

==================

(Also take into account that I'm not the sole actor proposing this, this is a proposal coming from the whole NAT and initially brought up by Akasha-, so these questions should be raised towards the whole proposing team. I'm basically responsible of managing the GitHub PR.)

Alright, so I decided to take a huge step of getting a lot of people on the same board and basically doing a group discussion with majority of the people involved within the discussion currently happening, and i'm asking clarification pertaining what do they really want from the current set of rule.
I have Antalf, Protastic101, Asherz007, Feerum and Akasha- to be involved in the discussion and discuss it together.

Basically we already got the mutual agreement that the original intention of the proposal is basically to differentiate between the condition which if someone hitsound their map, and if someone doesn't hitsound their map in the first place.

So to sum it up:

a) If there is addition, the frequent usage of normal-hitnormal will be discouraged at most.

b) If there is no addition, the default normal-hitnormal must be changed into custom normal-hitnormal.

---------------------------

Basically our conclusion will be that, we gonna have 2 new rules (or to be exact, 1 of them will be a rule, while the other one will be a guideline).

So the part that will be added as a rule would be:

1. If no additions are present in the map, the default normal-hitnormal must be overridden by a custom sample if the normal sampleset is chosen.

The part that will be added as a guideline would be:

1. Frequent use of the default normal-hitnormal sample is discouraged. Using this sample too frequently can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density and concurrent objects.

This should be at least the finale based on what others agreeing. Feel free to suggest better word if there are still incoming suggestion to come.

I greatly agree with this way better than what was originally proposed; its clearer, does not completely ban the use of said sound but also restricts the mapper enough to not use it in every scenario.

I believe the conclusion we came to is so far the best option presented that addresses the main concerns I presented in my last post:

1. Default hitnormal usage can be discouraged, but should not be entirely disallowed as there are uncommon cases where the default hitnormals actually do fit with the map.
   The proposed wording no longer explicitly disallows the usage of the default hitnormals, and in fact points to the default-hitnormal as being the problematic sample in question without blanket discouraging the soft and drum hitnormals which have an established place in mania hitsounds.
2. As a compromise, should custom overrides always be required, but with the option of using the default hitnormal as the custom override?
   With the proposed changes, this makes the answer "yes" only if the default normal-hitnormal is used. If the soft or drum default hitnormals are used, no override is required.
3. How do we consider the case of player skins and overriding map samples with skin samples? Should language be included to take this into consideration?
   We didn't really address this with the proposal, but in our discussion, we decided that since skins and the enabling and disabling of map hitsounds is client side, it's not something that we necessarily need to try and include language about.

Re Quenlla's proposed wording changes, they still explicitly disallow not having a custom hitnormal at all which I believe is a redundant requirement if the mapper truly wishes to use the default hitnormal and just creates another file for BNs to check. Wording option 1 is the closest to what Maxus and others have proposed, but our proposal change has the rigidity of a rule that gives BNs direction on what specifically they are looking for, especially in non-hitsounded maps, and the leniency of a guideline to choose the default hitnormal if the situation calls for it in a hitsounded map.

Quenlla wrote:

(Also take into account that I'm not the sole actor proposing this, this is a proposal coming from the whole NAT and initially brought up by Akasha-, so these questions should be raised towards the whole proposing team. I'm basically responsible of managing the GitHub PR.)

Quenlla wrote:

Of course I'm the one to already have PRed this representing the NAT in Github after we decided between NAT and BN, but it's important that I show my support here too. A needed clarificacion for something that is already an unwritten rule, a best practices, and a standard de facto

From your first post and your continued presence in the thread, I assumed you were offering yourself as the point of contact to mediate discussion, address concerns, and offer alternatives with the given feedback, though many points had continually been ignored or answered in an unsatisfactory way which is why I called you out directly for answers and not Maxus or Akasha- who had given their own input and offered changes based on feedback earlier.

Maxus wrote:

So the part that will be added as a rule would be:

1. If no additions are present in the map, the default normal-hitnormal must be overridden by a custom sample if the normal sampleset is chosen.

The part that will be added as a guideline would be:

1. Frequent use of the default normal-hitnormal sample is discouraged. Using this sample too frequently can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density and concurrent objects.

The base of this looks good in terms of objectives but it can be both too specific and provoke unnecesary need to override the normal-hitnormal:

1. Why should a map without additions and with them have a different ruling regarding the use of a custom hitnormal? The intention of this change is to tackle the usage of a custom hitnormal, which is independent from the usage of additions. An obnoxious hitnormal usage will be obnoxious no matter if additions are being used or not.
2. Two separate indications are being given:
   
   1. If you are using normal sampleset, override the default normal-hitnormal
   2. Avoid using the default normal-hitnormal
   This implies in a very long way that if you want to use the default normal-hitnormal, you have to override it's own slot with itself, which seems unnecessary. Wouldn't it just be easier to say "use adequate hitnormals and avoid using too frequently the normal hitnormal" since that covers the usage we want to give to it?

Prot wrote:

Re Quenlla's proposed wording changes, they still explicitly disallow not having a custom hitnormal at all which I believe is a redundant requirement if the mapper truly wishes to use the default hitnormal and just creates another file for BNs to check.

Please note I explicitly said this as an option in my previous post:

Quenlla wrote:

(...) where must may be replaced by should if we want to make it a guideline (depends on whether we want to enforce or not overrides) (...)

==========================

In any case, I sincerely believe the rule can be simplfied to something like:

1. Beatmaps must use adequate hitnormal samples. These samples and their usage should fit the song and not become obnoxious to players, given the game mode's high object density. Due to this, frequent use of the default normal-hitnormal sample should be avoided.

This wording can also solve gzdongsheng, YuEast and other people' concerns about using too loud, inadequate or unfitting hitnormal samples.

Depending on how strictly we believe this can be worded, the "should" can be changed to a "must" to ensure people are not doing stupid stuff with inadequate hitnormals, while still leaving plenty of room for e.g. the normal-hitnormal being used in a way that isn't intrusive (and without having to use it forcefully as an override instead of just using as-is, which is more efficient)

Quenlla wrote:

The base of this doesn't look too bad but it can be both too specific and provoke inefficient usage of hitnormal overrides:

1. Why should a map without additions and with them have a different ruling regarding the use of a custom hitnormal? The intention of this change is to tackle the usage of a custom hitnormal, which is independent from the usage of additions. An obnoxious hitnormal usage will be obnoxious no matter if additions are being used or not.
2. Two separate indications are being given:
   
   1. If you are using normal sampleset, override the default normal-hitnormal
   2. Avoid using the default normal-hitnormal
   This implies in a very long way that if you want to use the default normal-hitnormal, you have to override it's own slot with itself, which seems unnecessary. Wouldn't it just be easier to say "use adequate hitnormals and avoid using too frequently the normal hitnormal" since that covers the usage we want to give to it?

I can provide a live example if need, my problem with how it currently is, is that it bans the use of it completely, not only the normal but also we are talking about the drum and soft sample sets as well. Take into account once again what I mentioned above with Mage's song, I have a map that I used the default soft-hitnormal for the kiai sections and even in softer sections, linked here. Say I would like to rank this map, the rule itself will prohibit me from ranking said map due to the fact that I am not allowed to use the default skin hitnormals, what we proposed and how we worded it has stated that:

1. The normal-hitnormal MUST be replaced by a custom hitnormal if no hitsounding is going to be done, would be good to add that it can not be overriden by the default normal-hitnormal to make it even more clearer.

2. The mapper has leniency in using the normal-hitnormal if deemed fitting for hitsounding, have in mind that the only one that has been mentioned here is the normal-hitnormal, the drum and soft sample sets haven't been mentioned since they don't create that obnoxious playing environment.

What we tried to state with the new proposal is that if the mapper chose to not hitsound his map, has the normal sampleset enabled, then it is a must to change it to a custom hitnormal rather than the default one. If the mapper is hitsounding and decides to use the normal-hitnormal with the argument that it is fitting, a BN as they are required to check the hitsound before every nomination can revise this and advise the mapper if this is okay or it need immediate change.

The benefit of this is giving mappers a choice and not completely banning a sound that in the end does have some use, it does not create extra work for the nominating parties since its already stated that hitsound checks are a must if the map has them included.

To be more specific, a possible clarification of the rule should go along the lines of:

• If the normal-sampleset is chosen and no additions are present in the map, the default normal hit-normal must be overriden by a custom sample that is not the default normal-hitnormal.

I don't understand why the presence of hitsound additions has anything to do with how problematic the default normal-hitnormal becomes if used too frequently: a map with additions can use default normal-hitnormal in a very annoying way, and a map without additions can use the default normal-hitnormal sparingly in a way that isn't obnoxious. As it had been said repeatedly in this thread by many of us, outright banning default normal-hitnormal is too strict, and this also applies to maps without additions.

Given this, wouldn't it be enough with just a guideline that is only the second part of Maxus' last proposal? Without all the additions vs. no additions separation.

1. Frequent use of the default normal-hitnormal sample is discouraged. Using this sample too frequently can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density and concurrent objects.

Writing this alone covers both maps with additions and without additions and provides a good hint on how (not) to use the default normal-hitnormal, no need for additional clauses, unless I'm missing something in the process.

So the presence of hitsound additions implies that the map has been conventionally hitsounded (by either importing them in through the sample import window or the WCF method).

Those that do hitsound are aware of how difficult using the normal hitnormal sample can be to utilise and tend to stay away from it anyway, but for those who are less experienced/aware, the guideline is there to raise awareness of this with the reasoning behind it (particularly those who forget that skin samples exist and everything within rc uses default/mapset-exclusive samples).

The rule is intended to cover those that do not hitsound their maps (hence the absence of hitsound additions) - this rule is there to stop people from using this sample for its obnoxious properties at high frequencies as has been mentioned.


The reason that this was split was to minimise the variance in interpretation of what should be implemented to truly "cover all bases", as no doubt if there are mistakes/loopholes here then this will just become another point of discussion in the future where it could get more heated as it would involve someone trying to rank their map.

So the logic process that was discussed within the group is as below:

1. If you are not hitsounding your map and your map uses the normal sampleset, replace the hitnormal with a custom sample. (Rule)
2. If you are hitsounding your map and using the default samples, ensure that the normal hitnormal is not used too frequently. (Guideline)

Quenlla wrote:

a map without additions can use the default normal-hitnormal sparingly in a way that isn't obnoxious

Unless we're looking at an Easy diff only, this structure is impossible - a map that uses more than one hitsound sample is, by definition, adding hitsound additions to the mapset. A map can technically be fully hitsounded using just two samples.

Anything that only jumps between samplesets but only using hitnormals is, even in other modes, an inadequate attempt at hitsounding a map. (not to be confused with leaving a map unhitsounded)

Asherz007 wrote:

(...)
The rule is intended to cover those that do not hitsound their maps (hence the absence of hitsound additions) - this rule is there to stop people from using this sample for its obnoxious properties at high frequencies as has been mentioned.
(..)

Precisely because this is the intention, globally communicating as little as "Ensure that the default normal hitnormal is not used too frequently. This is because XYZ", as Asherz said later in this comment, already covers all possible use cases without needing to make separations, from a RC standpoint. Additionally that proposed guideline already raises global awareness to everyone (including unexperienced hitsounders) as to why using default normal-hitnormal too frequently is a problem.

Including the rule part seems not have use beyond being a sort of "warning: hard rule for noob or lazy hitsounders" instead of actually ensuring more quality standards for the overall mapping community, which is what the RC should consist of.

These suggestions, as per the idea of this thread, are meant to be mania-specific extensions to the General Ranking Criteria.

Everything within this general criteria has to be crystal clear and painfully obvious so that there is no confusion/misinterpretation, as these rules are to be followed by everyone, whether they have years of experience or no experience at all - a baseline for all mapsets regardless of which mode they are.

Implementing a rule (and the guideline by extension) like this, as mentioned, is aimed more towards those with less experience - people who are easily confused by this wall of text called the ranking criteria; telling these people what can and can't be done explicitly within this context I believe should be encouraged, as it is more in line with other regulations within the criteria.

Keeping it separate keeps it obvious; no inferences, no reading between the lines, no loopholes. As is what a criterion should be.

just want say
1. addition or not, shouldn't really impact usage of hitnormal. its really independent -> 1 rule or guideline is enough to avoid confusion
2. don't ban usage of any specific sample, default or custom, it really depends on the song and how its used.
3. ensure custom-hitnormal is provided in all cases (also the additions if they are used in map), the sample can be taken from default sampleset -> this is just to ensure mapper has an intention.
4. don't target normal-hitnormal specifically, it gives wrong impression the other ones are fine, but can be just as bad depending on usage.

my proposed wording:
for any sample used in your beatmap (hitnormal and additions), they must be present in song folder

Reworded proposal is at the bottom of this post.

Re Quenlla, I believe Asherz has addressed your first paragraph, but to reiterate - a mapper who is hitsounding their map (either with WCF additions or sample imports) is likely aware of the difficulty of using the default normal-hitnormal in a fitting way, so the chance that you will come across a situation where a hitsounded map has used it annoyingly is a rarity that can be handled case by case with the guideline doing its namesake: guiding the mapper and modders in how to navigate the situation.

A map without additions, by definition, cannot use the default normal-hitnormal sparingly because that is the only sample present, unless I've misinterpreted your statement. It's a direct contradiction to have no additions yet use the only sample present sparingly, unless the chart itself is not dense (easy or lower difficulty).

Quenlla wrote:

Given this, wouldn't it be enough with just a guideline that is only the second part of Maxus' last proposal? Without all the additions vs. no additions separation.

The concern is that if it's only a guideline, it will likely be overlooked as hitsounds are not a big component of a majority of mania maps (unfortunately in my opinion, but I digress). But it's also problematic if we only have a rule blanket banning the default hitnormal, because there ARE a small but still significant number of cases where the defaults actually do have a place as a fitting hitsound sample. So if we only have a rule, these maps would not longer be able to utilize the defaults, even if they'd be utilized well. Thus, having a guideline AND a rule allows us to make a distinction between the two most common cases of hitsounds in mania maps - those that are not hitsounded and thus rely only on the hitnormal, and those that are hitsounded and can make proper use of the defaults if desired.

It resolves the issue of having maps with 100% normal sampleset volume getting to ranked and being unplayable for people who need hitsounds on to play, while still allowing mappers (eyeing Feerum) to use the defaults properly and non-intrusively.

I don't see why it is so necessary to only have either one guideline or one rule. Why can we not have both and cover more potential situations? We are not proposing a wall of text to be amended to the mania RC; we're proposing two sentences to help with clarity and avoid confusion.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

just want say
1. addition or not, shouldn't really impact usage of hitnormal. its really independent -> 1 rule or guideline is enough to avoid confusion

We're proposing a hard rule and a guideline simultaneously to cover all possible use-cases and scenarios. The point of the rule is primarily for unhitsounded maps as having the default normal-hitnormal play if there is no custom override is just annoying to play with. As someone who can't play without hitsounds on, it makes some maps straight up unplayable for me as the audio becomes more hitnormal than song.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

2. don't ban usage of any specific sample, default or custom, it really depends on the song and how its used.

The language used in Maxus's latest proposal only bans the default normal-hitnormal in the case that it is the only sample used and present in the map. For a hitsounded map with WCF additions or sample imports, the default normal-hitnormal is allowable but given a "proceed with caution" warning to mappers as overuse can become irritating to listen to.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

3. ensure custom-hitnormal is provided in all cases (also the additions if they are used in map), the sample can be taken from default sampleset -> this is just to ensure mapper has an intention.
4. don't target normal-hitnormal specifically, it gives wrong impression the other ones are fine, but can be just as bad depending on usage.

For people using soft or drum samplesets, the default hitnormals of those samplesets are non-intrusive (unless put at 100% volume or something incredibly loud which is unlikely and/or caught by modders/BNs before it gets too deep into the nomination process), so forcing people to write those in as a custom override for something the game provides as a default is redundant and unnecessary. It is honestly much more difficult to mess up the default soft- and drum-hitnormals in a map than it is with the normal-hitnormal, so the impression that the defaults of the soft and drum samplesets are fine, and the normal is not is intentional.

I see your initial point about the rule reading as though it bans the default normal-hitnormal entirely while the guideline just says to avoid it. Here I've slightly reworded it to resolve the misinterpretation:

Rule:

1. If the normal-sampleset is chosen and no hitsound additions are present in the map, the default normal-hitnormal must be overriden by a custom sample that is not the default normal-hitnormal sample.
   
   1. This is because the default normal-hitnormal is a loud sample with a powerful attack which stands out in music. Choosing a softer sample that does not overpower the song such as a hihat is encouraged instead.

Guideline:

1. For maps with hitsound additions, frequent use of the default normal-hitnormal sample is discouraged. Using this sample too frequently can become obnoxious to players due to the game mode's high object density and concurrent objects.

We're targeting the normal-hitnormal specifically because its overuse as a sample (or an actual hitnormal) makes ears bleed as it's basically a really loud snare (the soft and drum sets by comparison are far more tolerable to the point of being used by some mappers instead of custom samples)

One of the other reasons is that if the mapper doesn't touch sample/volume control in the timing panel, it defaults to using the normal sampleset at 100% volume.

The notion of hitsound additions being, well, additions is a little misleading because unlike standard/catch using an addition replaces the hitnormal instead of adding onto it. So in non-hitsounded maps (i.e. maps without hitsound additions/replacements), the hitnormal is the only thing you hear.

Hence why we thought of phrasing it like we did to basically protect players' ears who enable hitsounds, to ban that specific hitsound on non-hitsounded maps.

The guideline is then there to support the rule as an advisory recommendation not to use the sample too often for the various reasons mentioned throughout this thread.

Make no mistake though, even though nearly all mania mappers use custom samples when hitsounding a map, by no means should this become a mandatory requirement, as the default samples still remain viable when used appropriately, as a number of mappers have proven in the past.

Just to answer DH's points directly in summary

1. Additions totally affect hitnormal usage as these replace what is heard in mania hitsounds, so they're more codependent (we will try and figure out how to make this wording a little less confusing)
2. We're only trying to blacklist this sample in certain situations because people don't know how to use it properly, hence why we want to tell them not to do that
3. Ultra subjective but I'm not sure this is necessary to force a custom override as the default soft/drum hitnormal are technically viable, just nobody chooses to use them
4. See point 2, the normal-hitnormal is the easiest to use (basically do nothing) and thus the sample causing the most issues

Hello everyone, we are going to push this proposal further so now its the time for anyone that has an idea to throw them out there!

This will be done within the next 7 days so please drop your opinions or any other proposals here.

u guys target current normal-hitnormal cuz its annoying, but tomrorrow peppy change the normal-hitnromal into something better then you have to change RC again

if peppy make hitclap annoying u need change RC again

if laser has different normal-hitnormal then you have to modify RC again to differentiate which one you ban

this rule is not very scalable. but it solves current problems, acceptable to me

but pls make sure to maintain it in future if any change happens to default HS in stable or lazer

As discussed in discord, the majority of players and mappers aren't using Lazer yet. So if and when it becomes more common place and the new normal-hitnormal is deemed not as annoying as the current one, then this rule can be changed once again. That's the point of the RC being a living document - changes can be made to it as time progresses and metas change.

As clayton has kind of touched on here, it seems very out of scope for the RC to be forcing something bundled with the base game to be completely disallowed. The sane option would be to change the default hitnormal for mania to negate the need for this kind of thing if it is widely considered as unacceptable by the broader community.

This seems like something much better suited to be raised for discussion in the lazer repo and have some proper R&D done on it.

As it stands, it seems like the best approach would be to continue on as things have been (with the hitsound replacements being a cultural expectation versus a hard rule-defined one), request revision of the default-hitnormal by the lazer sound team in the meanwhile, then backport whatever improved default-hitnormal comes out of lazer into stable (which should be relatively straightforward to do).

We're not completely disallowing the usage of the default normal-hitnormal. We're just putting the restriction on it that if a mapper wants to use it, they need to hitsound their map so that it's not the only sample, and this indirectly shows others that they have an idea of how to use it non-obtrusively since they're hitsounding in the first place.

If it's better to solve this issue for good by discussing it in the lazer repo and getting the actual samples changed there, then we'll look into doing that. We've heard the lazer samples and while they sound great, the normal and drum hitnormal samples would be too loud to use for a dense osu!mania map.

For now, I think we can conclude this thread then and make no adjustments to the RC, and instead make a PR to look into the hitnormal samples of the default skins in Lazer.