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About slider repeats

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Gens
Some people have noticed, some people haven't. Since the very creation of slider (I think, lol), there has been a misuse of slider repeats I consider really bad. This consists generally of a slider of a half-beat length with many repeats. Why is this so bad? Because you don't know when will these end unless you play the map twice and/or looking at it in editor.

You can take this as a mini-rant, but I actually think there should be an open discussion about this topic. There have been a few posts about this (osu! ranking discussion, Nazi-modding is not the way to go), but this deserves it's own thread.

I have been wandering around, modding, and pointing out these kind of errors. New mappers generally take my advice, but most people "don't understand" or ignore me.
Also, I have never seen someone else is modding this kind of aspect in maps. Have I been the only one who points this out, or more people are out there that care about this?

I must admit, sometimes it really fits the music and it's fun, but this is really just in a few cases. Most of the time is quite frustrating to play the map twice (In the worst case, even 10~13 tries if you're an experienced player) to FC it. I'd show examples, but it might result offensive to the mapper.

Do you think this is a real problem, or do you just enjoy these kind of "kick sliders"? What do you think about it? Will you spread the word about this "misuse" of repeats? Or will you encourage these kind of sliders instead? Do you think a guideline should be added?

Sorry if there has been another thread about it, but I think it's better to create a new topic.
Sleep Powder
Slider repeat abuse...?
There's tons of other things like streams,spinners,jumps and things that are abused in some beatmaps too.
I would say it depends on the player the and beatmap to decide if its good or not.
I barely consider these kind of slider repeats a problem.
Kitsunemimi
I had this random idea once that we could have a small number to the side of a slider reverse that indicated the number of times it kept reversing. I don't know if this is a good idea, or if it will be visible under a short enough slider, but it might just help.

As for the slider reverse abuse, I never really considered it an issue until you pointed it out on my map :P . Now it hits me whenever I play these maps (mainly because I've gotten better and have moved on to these kind of maps), and I think it deserves to go in the guidelines. A part of our task is to improve osu!'s maps and playability, and I believe that slider reverse abuse is something important that belongs in the guidelines.
Ekaru
It depends on the usage.

In most cases, it comes to me as bland, boring filler that proves that you have no creativity whatsoever since you weren't able to come up with something better than just a short slider that repeats for however long you needed filler.

In a few cases they feel right, but those instances are far and few between. It's better to just not use them, or use a single slider instead. In most cases, I mean. There are a few instances where they feel good, are fun, etc.

Too bad most people just use them as filler. What, they're not filler? Then don't make them feel like filler.
blissfulyoshi
For me, this is a huge problem on easier maps because most new players cannot do this slider, keep their combo, and hit the next note unless there is a break between the notes.

On higher difficulty maps, I really don't care about this problem because repeating sliders can easily be done by sight read by better players.

Still it has become a trend to rank easy beatmaps with repeating slider abuse, so I think some guidelines should be placed on the easier maps to make those maps more playable for people with less experience.
YoshiKart
Sometimes, kick sliders are made for sight reading, especially short kick sliders, or long sliders with a high velocity. So, I guess this should only be in higher difficulty maps, and should only be used as an additive to a pattern, not a filler, like Ekaru said.

Kick sliders in easier difficulties get tedious, boring, and cluttered.
0_o
I think FCing short repeating sliders is simply a skill to be mastered really, I rarely have problems with them unless they are hidden or placed stupidly etc.

EDIT: oh yeah, please NEVER EVER EVER EVER put a kick slider at the bottom of a long stack like THIS map. How the crap that got ranked I have no idea...
LuigiHann
It only really bothers me when there are multiple such sliders in the same map, which each have a different number of repeats, so you can never get used to it.

Which reminds me, I need to stop mapping them like that
lukewarmholiday
I point out dumb slider repeats when modding.

I will not participate in this thread because if anyone has a different opinion than me on slider repeats I will think less of that person.
Derekku
I only hate them when:

1) They are hard to hit after a long stream/stack
2) When they make it hard to hit the next note
3) There are multiple ones on top of each other that make it VERY hard to read

Especially when they're super short and the previous/following note(s) are only a 1/4th step off and give very little margin for error and thus breaking your combo almost every time you try to play the map x_x
anonymous_old

0_o wrote:

EDIT: oh yeah, please NEVER EVER EVER EVER put a kick slider at the bottom of a long stack like THIS map. How the crap that got ranked I have no idea...
I've only played DJPop's and I don't remember sliders there. Do you mean Lunatic? /me looks.

EDIT: Wha? I'm totally fine with that. =]

LuigiHann wrote:

It only really bothers me when there are multiple such sliders in the same map, which each have a different number of repeats, so you can never get used to it.
I have to agree somewhat. I am fine if two similar patterns have different repeat lengths. But with very near repeating etnas, I require them all to be the same length unless it's very clear otherwise (hint: it's not).

lukewarmholiday wrote:

I point out dumb slider repeats when modding.
Moi aussi.

I'm fine with repeating sliders like in the latter part of Red Sign. I'm fine with them in general. But, as I said, if they have different lengths and are very near each other, they should die.
awp
If it's at the end of a combo (ie nothing following immediately after) then I'm cool with it. Otherwise I complain, though I don't think it's mandatory to change. Just, kinda lame.
Hanyuu
i dont like it aswell the tripple stack that dont belong into the music
mm201
BZZT sliders are generally lame and should only be used in frantic maps.

The longerish but still short ones can be confusing, but there's an easy trick: just stay on the slider and start watching the approach circle of the next note. Jump to it as late as you can.

The BZZT sliders are also unbalanced since they jack up your Kiai bar to full really quickly.

(Sometimes this is appropriate if there's one of them right after a long, nearly fatal deathstream/jumpy part. Again, only on frantic maps.)
DaRRi
yeah new mappers tend to like using that
it's confusing and not cool
GladiOol
If that is how the mapper wants to map, and it's rankable then stop nagging already.
I map in my way, you map in your way, everybody does it diffrent wether you like it or not.
So what you have to retry, that's your mistake that you missed it.
~
anonymous_old
Maps should be fun. I want to play fun maps. Horrible use of sliders with repeats makes a map less fun.
Yuukari-Banteki

Gladi wrote:

If that is how the mapper wants to map, and it's rankable then stop nagging already.
I map in my way, you map in your way, everybody does it diffrent wether you like it or not.
So what you have to retry, that's your mistake that you missed it.
~
theres a difference between "rankable" and "good" and its ALWAYS a good idea to at least point out something that can move a map from one category to the other. If they choose not to, their loss. Also dont assume that *you* know what the mapper *wants* cus thats just retarded~
GladiOol

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Gladi wrote:

If that is how the mapper wants to map, and it's rankable then stop nagging already.
I map in my way, you map in your way, everybody does it diffrent wether you like it or not.
So what you have to retry, that's your mistake that you missed it.
~
theres a difference between "rankable" and "good" and its ALWAYS a good idea to at least point out something that can move a map from one category to the other. If they choose not to, their loss. Also dont assume that *you* know what the mapper *wants* cus thats just retarded~
Still there are appearently maps with these 'horrible' sliders, but they got ranked? By bats like you and others?
So apprearently it DO is rankable, in other words, quit whining please and play.
You are not to decide whats fun for the whole community.
I've never had any problems with some crazy ass slider repeating.
lukewarmholiday

Gladi wrote:

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Gladi wrote:

If that is how the mapper wants to map, and it's rankable then stop nagging already.
I map in my way, you map in your way, everybody does it diffrent wether you like it or not.
So what you have to retry, that's your mistake that you missed it.
~
theres a difference between "rankable" and "good" and its ALWAYS a good idea to at least point out something that can move a map from one category to the other. If they choose not to, their loss. Also dont assume that *you* know what the mapper *wants* cus thats just retarded~
Still there are appearently maps with these 'horrible' sliders, but they got ranked? By bats like you and others?
So apprearently it DO is rankable, in other words, quit whining please and play.
You are not to decide whats fun for the whole community.
I've never had any problems with some crazy ass slider repeating.
And some people do have problems. Just because you have no problems with repeats is no reason or you to say "YUR ALL JUS BABIES"
Yuukari-Banteki

Gladi wrote:

Still there are appearently maps with these 'horrible' sliders, but they got ranked? By bats like you and others?
So apprearently it DO is rankable, in other words, quit whining please and play.
You are not to decide whats fun for the whole community.
I've never had any problems with some crazy ass slider repeating.

??? when did i say they were UNRANKABLE? I said they were rankable, just not good :< please learn to read properly
Mogsy

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Gladi wrote:

Still there are appearently maps with these 'horrible' sliders, but they got ranked? By bats like you and others?
So apprearently it DO is rankable, in other words, quit whining please and play.
You are not to decide whats fun for the whole community.
I've never had any problems with some crazy ass slider repeating.

??? when did i say they were UNRANKABLE? I said they were rankable, just not good :< please learn to read properly
Personally, I still think that if something sticks out as not good/fun, we should point that out, too. Maps that are ranked should reach their full potential and knowingly keeping in things that aren't good hinders that.
Yuukari-Banteki

Mogsworth wrote:

Personally, I still think that if something sticks out as not good/fun, we should point that out, too. Maps that are ranked should reach their full potential and knowingly keeping in things that aren't good hinders that.
that is pretty much exactly what i said in my initial post. good > rankable even if rankable is well....rankable
DaRRi
the extremely short ones with a large number of repeats are easy to read and sometimes kool
others are confusing, usually we have better alternative for them, mappers better avoid using too many short repeat sliders with random number of repeats to make their maps BETTER THAN RANKABLE imo
Mogsy
That's pretty much the idea, Darri. A random number of repeats on kick sliders just flows like a river of bricks and plays more awkwardly than a piano with half of the keys missing. Then again, if people honestly have no idea as to how many repeats they should have, the people modding the map need to point that out and have them fix it.
Larto
If it plays badly, it's not good.
GladiOol
I'll just stfu already, my opinion 'bout this get's misheard & misreaded and the turn of events have come over me.
lukewarmholiday
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
anonymous_old

Larto wrote:

If it plays badly, it's not good.
Yes, but it's subjective.

This is why the modding and ranking systems (I don't believe they are one just yet) are as they are: multiple people with different viewpoints look at the same content and judge.

Gladi may be okay with a certain slider, but someone else may not. It's the mapper's decision on what he does with his own map.
DaRRi

strager wrote:

Larto wrote:

If it plays badly, it's not good.
Yes, but it's subjective.

This is why the modding and ranking systems (I don't believe they are one just yet) are as they are: multiple people with different viewpoints look at the same content and judge.

Gladi may be okay with a certain slider, but someone else may not. It's the mapper's decision on what he does with his own map.
still i say usually there're better alternative for them, true it's mapper's decision, but some viewpoints can't be called 'subjective', mapper should fix what is really 'bad'
we can't say 'different people have different ideas' under the case that even there're 100 people like how LEMON TREE is mapped.
i think, if something is objectively bad, it's just bad, no matter how many people would say 'i like it'
anonymous_old
There's no such thing as "objectively bad," IMO.

Subjectivity often doesn't play a role in ranking, which is one reason why I brought it up. Ranked maps aren't supposed to be "good" in a subjective sense (because that is, well, subjective).

Things like Lemon Tree are objectively bad and that can be looked at by a computer as "shit." A computer is only as good as its programmer, though (no offense to the dev's of course), so objectivity can't be completely encapsulated in a program.

Remember, ranking isn't about like/dislike; it's about sticking to the criteria. BAT's filter maps; they don't move them into ranking.
DaRRi
most players can tell good quality maps from poor ones ;)
Yuukari-Banteki
not necessarily - I've seen some gross breakings of very basic ranking guidelines that somehow the ordinary mods have completely failed to notice.
Gabi
eh, i dont see a problem with them if they follow a certain tone/beat or are divided by 2 or 4 on a certain beat/rythm.

i'd like an example of a map like this to see what you mean. i haven't seen any kind of kick sliders abuse (well maybe in one or 2 maps) recently.
Real1
A few are ok, as long as they fit. They can be good for variation, too. Let's say a map has many triplets, clicking in all of those may become repetitive and tedious, adding a repeating slider now and then makes the pattern less repetitive. Abusing them though, is like Gens said... A big no no.
SkyE-
Some of the '07-'08 maps have, Gabi xD

Though we all know that it's up to the mapper to map their songs, not every mapper will have the same standards as others =) It's easy enough to make something in a beatmap, but it's a hard thing to make something in a beatmap good.

For my sake, and then entire osu! community, people won't abuse the repeats xD But... things don't just happen. Give it some time, and the osu! standards of mapping will rise to a place where there will be no abusive mapping, and (if you've been following the hit-circle colour thread as well) there won't be any dark on dark xD I like to think of it as: "Opposites attract" OR "Being racist is good" LOL!
CheeseWarlock
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
anonymous_old
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
lukewarmholiday
Instead a short repeating slider for a drumroll.

Try a normal slider, and if you want you can have it repeat at a normal pace like every full beat or 2 full beats. As long as it sounds nice.
lukewarmholiday
Should I do a writeup with pictures about which repeating sliders should be unrankable/EXTREMELY FROWNED UPON, which repeating sliders are generally considered boring or annoying, and which are generally accepted.
Zerostarry
yes
SkyE-
As Starry says.

Good luck!
lukewarmholiday

SkyE- wrote:

As Starry says.

Good luck!
Get out
SkyE-

lukewarmholiday wrote:

SkyE- wrote:

As Starry says.

Good luck!
Get out
Get out.
lukewarmholiday
Well damn, how could I ever respond to that
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