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What does "reading the map" Mean?

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RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Reading is not just about what you see, it's what you can do. Translating what you read into action is what makes complicated patterns... well... complicated. Regardless of AR. Personally I like to play such maps, and for that reason I am mostly a nomod player.

One such map that comes to mind is DJ YOSHITAKA - VALLIS-NERIA [CorruptEXT] since it's the most recent challenging one I've played. I have collections devoted to such maps because I find "this kind of hard" is more fun, without the need for boring "planning ahead" or stressful "reactions." I am reading what's there only a few notes ahead, but I just need to get my fingers to cooperate.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

Aqo wrote:

Short answer: because they suck.
They don't suck, they just aren't patient enough to wait for the approach circles.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

JAKACHAN wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Reading a map on low AR is exactly the same as reading a map on high AR. Stop spreading false rumors based on assumptions when you can't play it yourself.
Instead of posting a big wall of text I instead ask you this question oh "Master of osu! with no ranks at all"

If reading high and low AR is exactly the same then why do so many players who train HR become completely inept in low AR?
Thing is JAKACHAN this game is broken and it forces you to play high ARs in order to compete for the top scores, it's not that low ARs are insanely hard, it's just that we never, ever, play them because the only way to get them is using EZ mode or playing [Super Ultra Easy you can play this even if you are retarded] difficulties. Even when I think they both require different skills (reaction vs planning ahead/whatever you call it) I don't think any of those two is harder. You have over 75k PC, I'm sure you spent over 90% of those playing ARs over 9, and maybe more than a half playing ARs over 10?

I don't really know about your particular case, but if you spent 50k plays playing AR 1-5 chances are you'd be good at it. There are some players who can play both high ARs and low ARs, because they actually practiced both. :p

Anyways, it's not that when you play AR 10 you get bad at AR 8, it's just that you kind of got rusty at it. Spend the next few days playing AR 8 and you'll suddenly be WAY better at it. You can't expect to be good at something you haven't really played for months!
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Almost wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Short answer: because they suck.
They don't suck, they just aren't patient enough to wait for the approach circles.
No, they definitely suck.
It doesn't take any patience when you're playing a map that has 3+ circles on the screen at any given moment.
Nobody was talking about AR6 [Easy] diffs where there's one circle at a time and you have to 'wait' for circles.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

Aqo wrote:

Almost wrote:

They don't suck, they just aren't patient enough to wait for the approach circles.
No, they definitely suck.
It doesn't take any patience when you're playing a map that has 3+ circles on the screen at any given moment.
Nobody was talking about AR6 [Easy] diffs where there's one circle at a time and you have to 'wait' for circles.
I personally have problems playing AR8 insanes because it feels like I have to wait to long after the circle appears. Though I'm not a really good example to take in because I'm not really great, it's probably the same for players who claim to not be able to play low ARs.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Almost wrote:

I personally have problems playing AR8 insanes because it feels like I have to wait to long after the circle appears. Though I'm not a really good example to take in because I'm not really great, it's probably the same for players who claim to not be able to play low ARs.
Stop proving his point.

You have geared yourself too much towards reaction. Just because it =/= your reflex time, does not mean it's not reaction.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

RaneFire wrote:

Almost wrote:

I personally have problems playing AR8 insanes because it feels like I have to wait to long after the circle appears. Though I'm not a really good example to take in because I'm not really great, it's probably the same for players who claim to not be able to play low ARs.
Stop proving his point.

You have geared yourself too much towards reaction. Just because it =/= your reflex time, does not mean it's not reaction.
Which is why I'm saying that even good players do this, too much high AR makes low AR harder.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
which is why they're not good
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

Aqo wrote:

which is why they're not good
Aqo coming from you of all people you have no place to call someone bad. You are the worst wanna be pro in osu to the point where people literally laugh at how stupid you act. Get out of the advice threads before you poison the future community with your garbage.

Thanks

TLDR: Leave the advice to those who actually know how to play and go "train" for 30000 more plays that get you no where.

Gets old seeing all these wannabe pros call people bad and trying to tell them what's right and what's wrong.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
It's true tho that playing high BPMs on "not that high" ARs is actually quite tough if you never practiced low ARs. I have a lot of trouble playing certain 260 BPM maps because of this. :(
Soarezi
Soarezi
Depending on patterns and how the map goes and such, for me AR8 is harder to read than AR10.3/AR11, yes i know it's mostly ''remembering'' because there is no way to react and read properly such fast speeds, but it is much easier for me to not fail on that AR rather than AR8. I can do AR10 squares without too much trouble, but AR9 is somewhat trouble (depending on the BPM of the song though) for example rainbow dash & atama no taisou, the squares are significantly easier on AR10.

Anyways, what JAKACHAN said above. You're my hero, you put the truth out there.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Reading the map means you understand on what beats the notes are and what they are supposed to mean in the song.
And what CXU added: Being able to properly execute it, reaching notes in timing on high AR, reading difficult overlap patterns on low AR, just extreme examples :P
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

RaneFire wrote:

Reading is not just about what you see, it's what you can do.
This.

If reading was all about seeing, I would be pro at AR11. Reading comes down to seeing what's going on, understanding what's going on, and then execute the actions needed after understanding. With low AR, you have longer time to understand what's going on, but you have a lot of stuff you need to understand as well, aaaand for high AR you just have a short time to see and understand everything.

Also if the difference between low and high ar was just reaction and amount of notes, then yeah, it would be kinda the same, but more notes also makes a bunch of overlaps, as well as make stacking occur more often. You rarely have complex overlapping patterns with high ar, because the notes fade out already, so low ar doesn't only make you need to understand more notes at a time, but said notes are also harder to understand because of the overlaps and whatnot.

And I'm tired. I hope my post kinda makes sense.
2211178
2211178
Well, I think that reading is really about how you could understand the map, while jumping, streaming, and accuracy all comes after.
Basically, for low ar, you need to keep yourself not to get overwhelmed by all the stuff; while for high ar, you need to be sharp to follow the flashing notes.
Personally I think aqo is either a god or just don't know what he was talking about, depends on whether he is really able to read ar6 and ar10 in exactly the same way or not.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Think of it as reading a book about, say physics.
It doesn't matter how well you can read the book, or how fast you can read it. It comes down to if you can use the information from that book to do what you need to do (in physics).

Basically change "book of physics" to beatmap and you have "how to read a map".
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

CXu wrote:

Think of it as reading a book about, say physics.
It doesn't matter how well you can read the book, or how fast you can read it. It comes down to if you can use the information from that book to do what you need to do (in physics).

Basically change "book of physics" to beatmap and you have "how to read a map".
where can i read said book
usa
193 posts
Joined September 2012
usa

buny wrote:

where can i read said book
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Soarezi wrote:

Depending on patterns and how the map goes and such, for me AR8 is harder to read than AR10.3/AR11, yes i know it's mostly ''remembering'' because there is no way to react and read properly such fast speeds, but it is much easier for me to not fail on that AR rather than AR8. I can do AR10 squares without too much trouble, but AR9 is somewhat trouble (depending on the BPM of the song though) for example rainbow dash & atama no taisou, the squares are significantly easier on AR10.

Anyways, what JAKACHAN said above. You're my hero, you put the truth out there.
It is actually possible to read AR 11, I remember looking up the "best" reaction time you can achieve by training. It was way more than what you need to play max AR (something around 110ms, max AR is 300ms). Those 110ms are the time it takes to your brain to "process" (or whatever you call this, not an expert at all just repeating what I read) what you saw and make it an image, so then you have about 190ms to properly understand what you have to do and do it. I find it quite doable, really hard to achieve but technically possible.

Many players do AR 10.3 now (well, a few I guess) and I still remember when AR 9 was fast and AR 10 was unplayable and completely impossible for most. It's just a matter of time until some people starts playing max AR.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Wishy wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

Depending on patterns and how the map goes and such, for me AR8 is harder to read than AR10.3/AR11, yes i know it's mostly ''remembering'' because there is no way to react and read properly such fast speeds, but it is much easier for me to not fail on that AR rather than AR8. I can do AR10 squares without too much trouble, but AR9 is somewhat trouble (depending on the BPM of the song though) for example rainbow dash & atama no taisou, the squares are significantly easier on AR10.

Anyways, what JAKACHAN said above. You're my hero, you put the truth out there.
It is actually possible to read AR 11, I remember looking up the "best" reaction time you can achieve by training. It was way more than what you need to play max AR (something around 110ms, max AR is 300ms). Those 110ms are the time it takes to your brain to "process" (or whatever you call this, not an expert at all just repeating what I read) what you saw and make it an image, so then you have about 190ms to properly understand what you have to do and do it. I find it quite doable, really hard to achieve but technically possible.

Many players do AR 10.3 now (well, a few I guess) and I still remember when AR 9 was fast and AR 10 was unplayable and completely impossible for most. It's just a matter of time until some people starts playing max AR.
Reaction time is about ~200ms (it varies from person to person, and training doesn't really help you improve it), how you react is what you can improve considerably with training. The main difficulty of AR11 is that you only have ~100ms to execute the action, which is considerably less than AR10 or AR10.33 (it's much harder unless you can snap the cursor to where the circle is early in that time frame). Also, reaction is harder when you aren't just waiting for a circle to appear, so you can't concentrate at all in what you are doing (how you are moving the cursor and clicking), sight-reading would need a near perfect muscle memory.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Full Tablet wrote:

Reaction time is about ~200ms (it varies from person to person, and training doesn't really help you improve it), how you react is what you can improve considerably with training. The main difficulty of AR11 is that you only have ~100ms to execute the action, which is considerably less than AR10 or AR10.33 (it's much harder unless you can snap the cursor to where the circle is early in that time frame). Also, reaction is harder when you aren't just waiting for a circle to appear, so you can't concentrate at all in what you are doing (how you are moving the cursor and clicking), sight-reading would need a near perfect muscle memory.
Pretty much this. Looking at it as AR10=450ms, 10.3=400ms and 11=300ms is the wrong way to go about it.
What you really should be doing is cutting your reaction time off first. So this is how much time you have to actually play at these speeds:
AR10=250ms, 10.3=200ms, 11=100ms

AR11 is approximately twice as fast in this regard.
Amefuri Koneko
130 posts
Joined April 2010
Amefuri Koneko
200ms is somewhat raw calculation.
Add input device delay, monitor delay + delay added by osu! itself (pretty sure it has some) + actual time you need to aim and ar11 becomes physically impossible, unless your reaction time is way above average.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
You aren't completely right, and I'll tell you why at the end.

Across all the different brands and models of gaming mice their actual response time to report a click on the computer can be as different as 40ms. It's similar for keyboards because of a delay known as "debouncing" to filter out possible double-detections.

I read a rather long LONG post a year back about video card output and screen rendering times. Needless to say on the lowest settings, their best sample was delayed by 11ms in rendering. Some combinations were delayed by 30ms. This has nothing to do with refresh rates and FPS btw.

But you know what the funny thing about all this. We test our reflexes on these same machines. So basically, for everyone to be testing 200ms with all these negatives... Our reflexes are in fact a considerable amount faster than tested. The problem is... it's still 200ms.

So at AR11, there is a hardware advantage to be gained.
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
I agree with Aqo. Look at it objectively.

If someone can read only AR 8-10 perfectly, then yes, they suck. What about AR 0-7? Objectively, they can read only 3/11 of the aforementioned approach rates.

Now compare to someone like MillhioreF who can read AR 2-9 perfectly (and maybe 10? idk). This person can read 8/11 possible approach rates.

8/11 is a greater fraction than 3/11 and therefore the second player is objectively a more versatile reader than the first player.

TL;DR - Millhiore is the best osu player in the world 2017
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
= Dog Face (no space)
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Millhi best player.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I have no idea where your numbers came from.
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
69.69% of statistics are made up on the spot
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Kanye West wrote:

69.69% of statistics are made up on the spot
haha...69
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