Oh, okay then. It just sounded kinda complicated to me. But yes, its true even I hate high AR on easier ones altough I mostly use AR9 on my Rains. Well, the song itself is always fast enough to handle it.
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[Guide] CTB Difficulty Spread
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I want to add that if we put too many restriction the risk is to have all maps looks the same. I want to see more mapping style and more creativity. Those rules should only be here to fix hard limits, not restrict creativity. This is the main reason I think hardest diffs should be less restrictive.
Everything we wrote here is consider a guide, to make people who dont have any CTB mapping experience quickly get to konw how to map.
In fact I don't see any limits expect AR and HP which is better to be fixed -.-
In fact I don't see any limits expect AR and HP which is better to be fixed -.-
I think we don't really need AR limit too just a guide for it. And if the mapper choosing the wrong one it will just takes ~4 words to tell him/her which will be the best. But hp is better to be limited.
Yeah you don't really need to care about AR when make CtB maps.
When I was so noob as played 'Hard' diff, AR8 wasn't very fast and it fit well.
And, I think hyperdashes are 'Undeniable Objects' of CtB, not advanced techniques or sucky pattern for noobs.
Why don't they must not use their left hands?
Edit : Okay. I think 1/1 hyperdashes at Salad is reasonable enough.
When I was so noob as played 'Hard' diff, AR8 wasn't very fast and it fit well.
Why don't they must not use their left hands?
Edit : Okay. I think 1/1 hyperdashes at Salad is reasonable enough.
ok then AR can be subjective to set.
But for me the most important thing is, AR10 should not be used only if the mapper have enough experience to handle it.
But for me the most important thing is, AR10 should not be used only if the mapper have enough experience to handle it.
AR10 haters everywhere :<
Maybe because we don't know how to use iteldnl wrote:
AR10 haters everywhere :<
^ yeah like me
I think AR10 is fun but still, even if its fun it shouldn't be applied on a song with under 200 bpm. Well, maybe between 180-200 the song itself is the main problem. But I don't think it will fit under 180. They are mostly not fast songs. So yes, we need some "rule" about AR10.
I mean, a lot of pattern we used in AR9 or below cannot be used in AR10 because of the extreme speed. that is why I want to make sure people mapping AR10 MUST have played AR10 before, and know which pattern for AR10 is fun, which is not.
Yeah, thats reasonable enough.
Sadly this can't be a guideline. We can't say "no you'll not map AR10 cause you're too noob at it lol!!!1!".
I think for AR10 there's two way to go :
1) Restrict to a specific mapping with something like : "All jumps should be visible on the screen at the moment the player have to start the movement. (sightreadable)"
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.
The second choice is more creative but will obviously make the ranking process way more long (And actually even with the first choice it will be long).
If someone have any other ideas on how to proceed, it would be welcome. Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper.
I think for AR10 there's two way to go :
1) Restrict to a specific mapping with something like : "All jumps should be visible on the screen at the moment the player have to start the movement. (sightreadable)"
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.
The second choice is more creative but will obviously make the ranking process way more long (And actually even with the first choice it will be long).
If someone have any other ideas on how to proceed, it would be welcome. Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper.
Seph
sadly this. sure its fun, but its hella fast most of the time.ZHSteven wrote:
because of the extreme speed.
i dont think having played an AR10 diff should never be a prerequisite for someone to map a map with that AR. you're just giving more restrictions to mapping style.ZHSteven wrote:
that is why I want to make sure people mapping AR10 MUST have played AR10 before, and know which pattern for AR10 is fun, which is not.
It is obvious that a lot of good AR9 patterns cannot be used in AR10. and to make it more clear, no continuous jump(with Dashes), no tricky patterns(reverse jump, stand Hdash, square, reverse triangles) etc. So yes, you are right. AR10 mapping will be more restrict than normal AR maps.
But there is still some good pattern can be or can only be used in AR10, if you play a lot of AR10 maps, you will see. So that is why I insist "enough experience".
But new mappers please please do not touch AR10. that will make things even worse.
But there is still some good pattern can be or can only be used in AR10, if you play a lot of AR10 maps, you will see. So that is why I insist "enough experience".
Edit: Since it is really hard to define "experience" in an accurate way, I have no choice but to choose 2. I totally against to write details in so called"rules".Drafura wrote:
Sadly this can't be a guideline. We can't say "no you'll not map AR10 cause you're too noob at it lol!!!1!".
I think for AR10 there's two way to go :
1) Restrict to a specific mapping with something like : "All jumps should be visible on the screen at the moment the player have to start the movement. (sightreadable)"
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.
The second choice is more creative but will obviously make the ranking process way more long (And actually even with the first choice it will be long).
If someone have any other ideas on how to proceed, it would be welcome. Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper.
But new mappers please please do not touch AR10. that will make things even worse.
I disagree with you, Steven, not because you can't play it properly we shouldn't use it like everything else, with time and practice, people with get used to it someday, and if you can't, play the previous difficulty!
I mean, if people cant see the difference between AR9 and AR10, there is a great chance that they use AR9 mapping style to map AR10 which is totally wrong. You are a experienced AR10 mapper and player I believe you know this.eldnl wrote:
I disagree with you, Steven, not because you can't play it properly we shouldn't use it like everything else, with time and practice, people with get used to it someday, and if you can't, play the previous difficulty!
Actually in my mind, even in AR8 and AR9 map there IS a difference in mapping but not that obvious.
And as you say, with time and practice, the mapper finally get to use AR10 well. Then I dont see any reason they cant map a good AR10 map at that time, and I will be happy to mod it.
OFF TOPIC
Off topic: I believe I am the first few people who can handle AR9.5 and above-.-
If Im not wrong, Im the first player who can pass Himiko with HR.
dont ever think I have no experence in play extreme speed map=.=JK~~It is true that I cant play it now=.= 1.5 years AFK from player already 
If Im not wrong, Im the first player who can pass Himiko with HR.
With you I don't mean YOU but you.
lol I see~~just a joke~eldnl wrote:
With you I don't mean YOU but you.
It is not a joke, but I don't know how to explain it.
I mean what I say is just a joke, I know you know what I know(oh dam what does it mean)eldnl wrote:
It is not a joke, but I don't know how to explain it.
OK lets put an end to this.
People will choose to map AR10 freely but kindly suggest do not make AR10 map only if the mapper can be sure to handle.
Drafura wrote:
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.
Well I still think AR10 need a separate explanation in the current system. Something like when you are free to choose (if you want to rank it) and what you need (or not need) to do for the better playability.
Seph
Yeah, and kinda hard to use it on a song with 50 bpm. And it fucking hard to play if you use too many hdashes. Triangle pattern is (for example) with ar10 is almost equal with impossible.
Only highly professional mappers with a great deal of experience should make use of AR10. You have to know what makes an AR10 song still enjoyable to play, and not everybody has enough qualification to deal with such an enormous speed.
Also, BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.
Also, BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.
Thats why I think we need a bit separate way to write down how ar10 should be used. Well its not necessary at least to me since I will never use it.
Not sure if it's possible to write down direct criterias about how to work with AR10 properly, that depends also on mappers preferences and mapping style in general. In the guideline we can mention that AR10 should be used in rare cases and only if it fits to the song itself / BPM. I cannot think of concrete examples which patterns are recommended for AR10 because everybody has different opinions of good and bad patterns for AR10 for sure. Important is that the map has to be fc'able and patterns need to make sense with rhythm and somehow has to be still enjoyable (which is pretty hard with AR10).
I would generalize this a bit. Guidelines could look like this:
I would generalize this a bit. Guidelines could look like this:
- Only highly professional mappers with a great deal of experience should make use of AR10. You have to know what makes an AR10 song still enjoyable to play, and not everybody has enough qualification to deal with such an enormous speed.
- BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.
- You must be sure that your patterns are fc'able with AR10. If not better don't use it till you gained more mapping experience. You can also ask other CTB players to testplay your map but keep in mind that only a few are capable of playing AR10.
You're confusing HR and AR10. AR10 doesn't make more hyperdashes, HR or smaller fruits do it.Seph wrote:
It doesn't do anything special except speed up the fruits, make more hyperdashes appear and etc.
My thoughts about AR10 mapping :
Hyperdashes are the best friends of AR10 mapping, cause they're allways readable. Of course overusing them doesn't make the map playable. I'm not against memorisation in AR10 but I think it should be kept for key parts of the song (3-4 jumps to learn is enough most of the time imo). About jumpy patterns if they fits perfectly with the song they can be considered as intuitive. About the bpm I agree with Sey so I scrolled over 146 AR10 maps and the critical point (imo) seems to be 170 Bpm, at this point the map doesn't fit most of the time the low density makes the map much less sightreadable, and you'll have to memorize a huge amount of jumps. So I can propose around 180 bpm as a prerequist of AR10 mapping in CtB, what's your opinion ? (Keep in mind that this is all about timeline, wich means a high use of 1/4 on a low bpm song could be good enough for AR10 if the (base bpm)*2 <= 180 and vice versa)
Seph
I am pretty sure that you mean HR AR8,9 map or AR10 transition map not AR10 specific map.Seph wrote:
AR10 does make more hyperdashes appear compared to other ARs combined with smaller fruits
in case you dont believe me, get a map with jumps, with AR8, 9 and 10 and compare hyperfruit spawn
You can check with eldnl, I believe he got tons of good AR10 specific maps.
Edit:
Totally agree this.Drafura wrote:
Hyperdashes are the best friends of AR10 mapping, cause they're allways readable. Of course overusing them doesn't make the map playable. I'm not against memorisation in AR10 but I think it should be kept for key parts of the song (3-4 jumps to learn is enough most of the time imo). About jumpy patterns if they fits perfectly with the song they can be considered as intuitive.
[/quote]Drafura wrote:
About the bpm I agree with Sey so I scrolled over 146 AR10 maps and the critical point (imo) seems to be 170 Bpm, at this point the map doesn't fit most of the time the low density makes the map much less sightreadable, and you'll have to memorize a huge amount of jumps. So I can propose around 180 bpm as a prerequist of AR10 mapping in CtB, what's your opinion ? (Keep in mind that this is all about timeline, wich means a high use of 1/4 on a low bpm song could be good enough for AR10 if the (base bpm)*2 <= 180 and vice versa)
But I dont think BPM is an so important parameter for this. high bpm with low AR make the map not readable, but I think low bpm with high AR doesn't affect much. Maybe low BPM with AR10 would make people confuse but I dont see a reason we should restrict BPM just because of this.
More hdash-es = more harder to play. This makes the usage of ar10 more restricted. I think what Sey wrote it will solve this case easily.
EDIT: I think the bpm is the critical since that makes the map fast or slow. Yes you can play low bpm with ar10 but that is just not enjoyable. Well, maybe its not enough to restrict this but still if a map aiming to be ranked the ar should choosen wisely.
EDIT: I think the bpm is the critical since that makes the map fast or slow. Yes you can play low bpm with ar10 but that is just not enjoyable. Well, maybe its not enough to restrict this but still if a map aiming to be ranked the ar should choosen wisely.
Seph
Sey wrote:
Guidelines could look like this:Any better ideas or concrete examples?
- Only highly professional mappers with a great deal of experience should make use of AR10. You have to know what makes an AR10 song still enjoyable to play, and not everybody has enough qualification to deal with such an enormous speed.
how can we defferentiate highly professional mappers to normal mappers? also as Drafura says, "Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper. "- BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.
Actually I dont see a must to restrict BPM for AR10 map, but I will keep my thoughts about BPM anyway=.=- You must be sure that your patterns are fc'able with AR10. If not better don't use it till you gained more mapping experience. You can also ask other CTB players to testplay your map but keep in mind that only a few are capable of playing AR10.
I agree with this
I agree CS affects hyperdash generation, but I never encountered an AR change wich generates more or less hyperdashes. Can you give me an example of hyperdashes wich are affected only by AR ?Seph wrote:
it was comparison to maps, thats why i said try doing it on a map and change its AR, and also smaller fruits affects the spawn.
Don't ask for examples, it doesn't happen. The hyperdash system has nothing to do with the speed of falling of the notes.Drafura wrote:
I agree CS affects hyperdash generation, but I never encountered an AR change wich generates more or less hyperdashes. Can you give me an example of hyperdashes wich are affected only by AR ?Seph wrote:
it was comparison to maps, thats why i said try doing it on a map and change its AR, and also smaller fruits affects the spawn.
I didn't read what you guys wrote, and sorry when I jump in out of the sudden, but really:
So making a guideline out of this is not possible. That's in general a rule.
I would rather suggest you to make a Guide out of this(as we are doing it for Taiko atm) and add it as closed sticky thread after you are done with your discussion.
After all, you explain how to make a good spread, so as guide this would fit better. It doesn't even need to be strict, rather approximately.
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_CriteriaRanking Criteria wrote:
The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, [...]
So making a guideline out of this is not possible. That's in general a rule.
I would rather suggest you to make a Guide out of this(as we are doing it for Taiko atm) and add it as closed sticky thread after you are done with your discussion.
After all, you explain how to make a good spread, so as guide this would fit better. It doesn't even need to be strict, rather approximately.
Oh and about Jumps/Direction: They should be as logical as they in the Standard Mode. It's a point that speaks for itself but people might going to ignore this point - for whatever reasons. (That would be a "Guideline", how Sey tried to suggest some)
Seph
Topic Starter
That was the point of making this thread, but it went a bit offtopic with AR10 mapping. It wasn't made pretending to include any new Rule/Guideline, but to have a small guide like: http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/InsaneOnosakiHito wrote:
I would rather suggest you to make a Guide out of this(as we are doing it for Taiko atm) and add it as closed sticky thread after you are done with your discussion.
After all, you explain how to make a good spread, so as guide this would fit better. It doesn't even need to be strict, rather approximately.
The gist of this thread is making us differenciate easily the different levels of difficulty inside the gamemode. This can be useful for experienced modders/mappers, or people who wants to start on it.
Modified slightly the OP~
My bad, didn't understood it this way.Deif wrote:
That was the point of making this thread, but it went a bit offtopic with AR10 mapping. It wasn't made pretending to include any new Rule/Guideline, but to have a small guide like: http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/InsaneOnosakiHito wrote:
I would rather suggest you to make a Guide out of this(as we are doing it for Taiko atm) and add it as closed sticky thread after you are done with your discussion.
After all, you explain how to make a good spread, so as guide this would fit better. It doesn't even need to be strict, rather approximately.
I can give you my template for this. PM me if needed.
I go out and let you continue to discuss. lol
I go out and let you continue to discuss. lol
A wild Ono appeared.
/me runs
/me runs
I want to start a new topic here. What do you people think of distance between note and spinner?
For now Ranking Criterias say:
"Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together."
Especially the second part distracts me. On which BPM can we say that fruits are indistinguishable from spinner fruits? Do you all agree on a 1/2 distance? This should be explained more detailed in the Ranking Criterias.
Please give some opinions.
For now Ranking Criterias say:
"Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together."
Especially the second part distracts me. On which BPM can we say that fruits are indistinguishable from spinner fruits? Do you all agree on a 1/2 distance? This should be explained more detailed in the Ranking Criterias.
Please give some opinions.
Topic Starter
That's a topic to discuss here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/87. Please, stay on-topic and let's make this basic guide.Sey wrote:
I want to start a new topic here. What do you people think of distance between note and spinner?
For now Ranking Criterias say:
"Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together."
Especially the second part distracts me. On which BPM can we say that fruits are indistinguishable from spinner fruits? Do you all agree on a 1/2 distance? This should be explained more detailed in the Ranking Criterias.
Please give some opinions.
Alright, but what Sey said is useful too, isn't?, seems like I'm not understanding what do you want Dief!
Hi '-'
Time to revive this.
Since this thing is now a standard through the community I would like to discuss about some points.
And especially about the use of dash and hdash.
Allowed :
Allowed :
Probably because this guideline isn't clear.
Even in old mapset like this http://osu.ppy.sh/b/247642, can this pattern 01:33:397 (1,2,3) - be considered like "easy hdash" ?
Or in more recent maps http://osu.ppy.sh/b/308262, this kind of thing 00:04:714 (3,4) -
But if there is only "easy dash" there is no more interest in platter.
So let's go for a new definition.
Allowed :
The definition is ok for me but just to remind
Allowed :
Time to revive this.
Since this thing is now a standard through the community I would like to discuss about some points.
And especially about the use of dash and hdash.
Cup: Your dash button shouldn't even have to be used.
To include a few numbers of easy jumps or spacing closer to dash should be accepted. Allowed :
- Use of dash buttons during some parts like kiai and only if the jump fits the song.
- Jump closer to dash (no need for a dash but more easy if you dash)
- HDash
- Series of jumps
Salad: No HDashes can appear yet.
Same as Cup but with the use of hdash.Allowed :
- A few numbers of 1/1 Hdash (or 1/2 if slow bpm), the pattern before and after the hdash sould be easy to catch and the song should fit the hdash.
- 1/2 hdash (for high bpm songs)
- Series of hdash
- Tricky patterns
Platter: Some easy HDashes can be used with caution.
Serioulsy this one isn't satisfied for a huge number of platter.Probably because this guideline isn't clear.
Even in old mapset like this http://osu.ppy.sh/b/247642, can this pattern 01:33:397 (1,2,3) - be considered like "easy hdash" ?
Or in more recent maps http://osu.ppy.sh/b/308262, this kind of thing 00:04:714 (3,4) -
But if there is only "easy dash" there is no more interest in platter.
So let's go for a new definition.
Allowed :
- 1/2 hdash
- A few number of patterns with a series (2-3) of hdash
- Sometimes, it may appear a few number of jump closer to hdash (only used with caution)
- 1/4hdash, even for a slow bpm songs (?)
- Anti-jump after a hdash
Rain: HDashes and dashes are meant to be suitable for all players.
The mapper should have more liberty here.The definition is ok for me but just to remind
Allowed :
- 1/4 hdash (a few number, this kind of thing can be really hard to catch
- Jump closer to hdash
- A number of patterns (no need to give some exemple, the limit between a rain pattern and an overdose pattern can be really close)
Overdose/Deluge: HDashes and dashes are more challenging.
No need for rule here, time for fun è_éTake a look at this.Krah wrote:
Platter: Some easy HDashes can be used with caution.Serioulsy this one isn't satisfied for a huge number of platter.
Probably because this guideline isn't clear.
Even in old mapset like this http://osu.ppy.sh/b/247642, can this pattern 01:33:397 (1,2,3) - be considered like "easy hdash" ?
Or in more recent maps http://osu.ppy.sh/b/308262, this kind of thing 00:04:714 (3,4) -
But if there is only "easy dash" there is no more interest in platter.
Seph wrote:
That's supposedly a Rain imo.
ZHSteven wrote:
about difficulty, in my opinion,
CUP: should be able to FC without dash.
means nothing.... if it must say, mean to be kind to all players
Salad: should not contain 1/3 or lower(1/4, 1/6, etc) dashes, and i think Hdashes could be introduced if it really fit the map.
challenge to new comers, but easily HRed, DTed by normal players.
Platter: may contain 1/4 jumps, but try to use them wisely. also 1/4 Hdashes not recommended at all. So does the tricky streams.
challenge to normal players, but not hard to FC. easily HR+HD, DT+HD by skillful players.
Rain: only extremely pattern cannot be used.(continuous reverse jump, max normal jump, 1/4 varies spacing big jump, tricky jump, etc)
Challenge in FC for skillful players, but easily being HDed by top players.
Overdose: no limitation so long as they fit the map.GO IN HELL!!! request for an "S"(jk wwwww
I still think Steven was right and my mapping is following his rules. Why should a HDash appear on Salad? Harder jumps yes, and maybe and just maybe 1-2 easy HDash, but then again. What is "easy"? For and experienced player most HDash is easy isn't it? But I have several friends who can't play even play HDashes even tho he like CtB. Not as a main mode but still... So then again Salad should only contain dashes and some harder one during kiai, HDash I don't think needs here.